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[Kaneda Shotaro]

Dat dimming rate is scaring the shit outta me. Shit must be CIV-2 made.

Can someone explain what dimming means in relation to a star? And why the rate of its dimming is such a big deal?

In super simple terms, can someone explain everything about this and why it's so strange? Thanks.

 

[Stinkles]

Can someone explain what dimming means in relation to a star? And why the rate of its dimming is such a big deal?

In super simple terms, can someone explain everything about this and why it's so strange? Thanks.

The star is dimming because very large very numerous objects are passing in front of it, relatively close to the star and exhibiting similar phenomena to theorized Dyson spheres - artificial constructs designed to efficiently harness a star's power.

 

[Kaneda Shotaro]

The star is dimming because very large very numerous objects are passing in front of it, relatively close to the star and exhibiting similar phenomena to theorized Dyson spheres - artificial constructs designed to efficiently harness a star's power.

How often are they passing in front of it?

Couldn't it just be an insanely massive planet with giant fragments of a dead planet or something trapped in its gravity, spinning around it causing the dimming?

 

[Insane Metal]

Can someone explain what dimming means in relation to a star? And why the rate of its dimming is such a big deal?

In super simple terms, can someone explain everything about this and why it's so strange? Thanks.

This type of star (based on its mass and luminosity) does not exhibit such a behavior naturally (at least that we know of). It dims in ridiculously big time spans (at least for us humans), like hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. So the explanation is something unknown, and one possibility is the so called Dyson Sphere.

 

[Stinkles]

How often are they passing in front of it?

Couldn't it just be an insanely massive planet with giant fragments of a dead planet or something trapped in its gravity, spinning around it causing the dimming?

Scientists don't know but say it's weirder than that.

 

[Kreuzader]

How often are they passing in front of it?

Couldn't it just be an insanely massive planet with giant fragments of a dead planet or something trapped in its gravity, spinning around it causing the dimming?

Planetary debris or dust typically emits in infrared; that's not being seen here. The working theory until this last paper was large amounts of (cold) comets, but with the duration and depth of dimming being seen, more comets than could conceivably exist in a single star system would need to be invoked.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Radio waves are light waves and travel at the speed of light.

If we were to send a radio transmission to the star, as opposed to a probe, it would take 1480 years to get there. Of course, any sort of response would be another 1480 years wait, assuming they also communicate via light waves.

This is all so discouraging. We need to break the speed of light or nothing is ever going to get accomplished...

 

[Kaneda Shotaro]

This type of star (based on its mass and luminosity) does not exhibit such a behavior naturally (at least that we know of). It dims in ridiculously big time spans (at least for us humans), like hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. So the explanation is something unknown, and one possibility is the so called Dyson Sphere.

Wait so it takes thousands or millions of years for it to dim? That's weird. If something was stuck in it's orbit, it would move around it faster correct?

I'm still confused. If it takes thousands of years for this object to move around it and make it dim...it could still be a giant comet or something, stuck there. Right? And is there evidence of the shape? Or does it completely block the planet when it moves in front of it?

 

[DivineRage002]

How often are they passing in front of it?

Couldn't it just be an insanely massive planet with giant fragments of a dead planet or something trapped in its gravity, spinning around it causing the dimming?

Planets cannot grow to that size, solid planets would collapse and gas planets would compress themselves and stay a size similar to jupiter, which is nowhere close to big enough to dim a star's brightness. If you made a gas giant MUCH bigger than jupiter, eventually it's interior will ignite through a complicated process explained here: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/09/07/the-upper-limit-to-a-planet/#.VpkiOSorKUk, and it would turn into a star itself.

So it's not a planet.

Only a ridiculously huge asteroid field could do something similar. But it would require it being so ridiculously big, that it's basically no longer a valid theory.

 

[gutshot]

Wait so it takes thousands or millions of years for it to dim? That's weird. If something was stuck in it's orbit, it would move around it faster correct?

I'm still confused. If it takes thousands of years for this object to move around it and make it dim...it could still be a giant comet or something, stuck there. Right? And is there evidence of the shape? Or does it completely block the planet when it moves in front of it?

I don't think there is any evidence of dimming over thousands or millions of years. Initially, the dimming were relatively short events, over several days and they included massive dips in the star's light, up to 22%. A planet passing in front of a star dims it by only a fraction of a percent, so this is much, much larger than a planet. At the time, the theory was a large comet field that orbits the star and periodically blocks out 22% of the light for a few days.

Now, new evidence shows that not only are these short dimming events occurring, but a long, slow, and steady dimming has been occurring over the past 100 years. This dimming has reduced the star's light by 20% over that time. This type of dimming would be almost impossible to be comets, since the field would need to be unimaginably large to cause that much consistent dimming over such a long period of time.

Occam's Razor suggests both the long-term dimming and the short-term dimming are caused by the same thing, so if the long-term dimming is almost impossible to be comets, the short-term dimming is likely not comets either.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Someone with a good theoretical physics background:

Suppose we found that it was very likely that this was a man made structure and wanted to communicate with the star system (at least send "intelligent" EM bursts there). Would it be feasible, in the next 500 years, to develop a device to very briefly make a wormhole capable of transmitting those bursts FTL?

I don't know if that is possible without us having a "reciever" there, and I seem to recall that, best-case, information gets scrambled during transmission with small wormholes.

 

[Insane Metal]

I don't think there is any evidence of dimming over thousands or millions of years. Initially, the dimming were relatively short events, over several days and they included massive dips in the star's light, up to 22%. A planet passing in front of a star dims it by only a fraction of a percent, so this is much, much larger than a planet. At the time, the theory was a large comet field that orbits the star and periodically blocks out 22% of the light for a few days.

Now, new evidence shows that not only are these short dimming events occurring, but a long, slow, and steady dimming has been occurring over the past 100 years. This dimming has reduced the star's light by 20% over that time. This type of dimming would be almost impossible to be comets, since the field would need to be unimaginably large to cause that much consistent dimming over such a long period of time.

Occam's Razor suggests both the long-term dimming and the short-term dimming are caused by the same thing, so if the long-term dimming is almost impossible to be comets, the short-term dimming is likely not comets either.

I was referring to the star's lifetime which would make it dim naturally. But yeah there were also the two dimming episodes that happened in a matter of days.

 

[HStallion]

Someone with a good theoretical physics background:

Suppose we found that it was very likely that this was a man made structure and wanted to communicate with the star system (at least send "intelligent" EM bursts there). Would it be feasible, in the next 500 years, to develop a device to very briefly make a wormhole capable of transmitting those bursts FTL?

I don't know if that is possible without us having a "reciever" there, and I seem to recall that, best-case, information gets scrambled during transmission with small wormholes.

The sending of info is the least of your issues. Just generating the power and controlling it in any way alone is a staggering achievement we are basically in the dark at currently. Just making a wormhole at all, let alone a stable one that lasts for more than an insignificant time period would be the real challenge.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I find it amazing that we can figure out all this stuff for objects so far away.

 

[infinitys_7th]

The sending of info is the least of your issues. Just generating the power and controlling it in any way alone is a staggering achievement we are basically in the dark at currently. Just making a wormhole at all, let alone a stable one that lasts for more than an insignificant time period would be the real challenge.

Alright, from the other side - if we have seen a 22% dimming in the light from this star over the past hundred years, and the star is 1480 LY away, then if we were watching a Dyson sphere being constructed it would likely have been completed. Would they have access to enough energy to do something similar?

 

[Simon Belmont]

http://www.space.com/20881-wormholes.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

The theory of wormholes is pretty solid. The only problem is that they have never been witnessed. Just like Dyson Spheres.

"Theoretically solid" and "Actually practical" are two completely different things. Just like Dyson Spheres.

 

[Arkeband]

So let me see if I understand.

Theoretically if it were a Dyson sphere, would it be a Dyson sphere that was constructed so quickly that in the last hundred years of Earth time, it's blocked out ~20% of the light reaching us?

And this was all done over a thousand years ago where they're at?

The odds of us witnessing this seem astronomical, even if this was a fivehundred-year long project... Right?

 

[infinitys_7th]

So let me see if I understand.

Theoretically if it were a Dyson sphere, would it be a Dyson sphere that was constructed so quickly that in the last hundred years of Earth time, it's blocked out ~20% of the light reaching us?

And this was all done over a thousand years ago where they're at?

The odds of us witnessing this seem astronomical, even if this was a fivehundred-year long project... Right?

It would make there being a lot of life out in the universe, at all levels of technology, a hell of a lot more likely.

This just gets me incredibly excited. If it is a new phenomenon that's great, and if it is an artificial structure, let alone a Dyson sphere or similar. . .

The sheer possibilities that creates for what can be done in this universe through knowledge and ingenuity are enough for me.

 

[Staccat0]

Every time this thread bumps, my heart jumps.

 

[DivineRage002]

Someone with a good theoretical physics background:

Suppose we found that it was very likely that this was a man made structure and wanted to communicate with the star system (at least send "intelligent" EM bursts there). Would it be feasible, in the next 500 years, to develop a device to very briefly make a wormhole capable of transmitting those bursts FTL?

I don't know if that is possible without us having a "reciever" there, and I seem to recall that, best-case, information gets scrambled during transmission with small wormholes.

The only way it could possibly happen in the next 500 years is if we reach the singularity soon. Read up on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Once we reach that, it's hard to predict how fast things will evolve.

Alright, from the other side - if we have seen a 22% dimming in the light from this star over the past hundred years, and the star is 1480 LY away, then if we were watching a Dyson sphere being constructed it would likely have been completed. Would they have access to enough energy to do something similar?

Making any decent size wormhole would require an unbelievable ammount of energy, only such that a Dyson Sphere could provide. Since what we're seeing is 1480 years old, it's most likely finished, and odds are that they might be building a second one, or more by now. They might actually be able to pull it off.

 

[Bold One]

I find it amazing that we can figure out all this stuff for objects so far away.

But we haven't figured anything out, thats the problem...

 

[void666]

Every time this thread bumps, my heart jumps.

Yeah. It's exciting and then it's frustrating.

 

[SlimySnake]

Can someone please explain to me laymen terms what this means. i read the latest update and i have no clue what its saying. aliens?

 

[John Dunbar]

Can someone please explain to me laymen terms what this means. i read the latest update and i have no clue what its saying. aliens?

it's never aliens.

until it is, of course.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

 

[HStallion]

This is an odd reaction because if nothing else this latest news at least shows the most logical outcome for what is happening is out the window.

Doesn't mean aliens but it also means we really have no fucking clue what's going on with this star.

Maybe its even something crazier than a Class 2 civilization and its a monstrously gigantic alien organism that floats through space eating stars!

 

[LookAtMeGo]

This is an odd reaction because if nothing else this latest news at least shows the most logical outcome for what is happening is out the window.

Doesn't mean aliens but it also means we really have no fucking clue what's going on with this star.

Maybe its even something crazier than a Class 2 civilization and its a monstrously gigantic alien organism that floats through space eating stars!

Thats cool but I want alien confirmation dammit!

Im just playing around though. I find this all to be very fascinating.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Someone with a good theoretical physics background:

Suppose we found that it was very likely that this was a man made structure and wanted to communicate with the star system (at least send "intelligent" EM bursts there). Would it be feasible, in the next 500 years, to develop a device to very briefly make a wormhole capable of transmitting those bursts FTL?

I don't know if that is possible without us having a "reciever" there, and I seem to recall that, best-case, information gets scrambled during transmission with small wormholes.

Well, you have the little problems of FTL being impossible and wormholes not existing.

 

[Unai]

Even if that's natural, it's freaking cool that in 2016 we can still see something out there that we have no idea what the hell it even is. Makes you think what humanity will learn about the universe in the next 500 years, even if those things that look like cience fiction (whormoles, FTL travels, aliens, warp drives, etc) are really just fiction.

 

[HStallion]

Well, you have the little problems of FTL being impossible and wormholes not existing.

I dont like using the word impossible for these types of ideas since our understanding of the universe around us is pretty insignificant. Not saying FTL is doable or even feasible but we don't even have a great grasp of things like Dark Matter yet and so on.

 

[gutshot]

Can someone please explain to me laymen terms what this means. i read the latest update and i have no clue what its saying. aliens?

I more or less summarized it in a reply to someone else upthread:

I don't think there is any evidence of dimming over thousands or millions of years. Initially, the dimming were relatively short events, over several days and they included massive dips in the star's light, up to 22%. A planet passing in front of a star dims it by only a fraction of a percent, so this is much, much larger than a planet. At the time, the theory was a large comet field that orbits the star and periodically blocks out 22% of the light for a few days.

Now, new evidence shows that not only are these short dimming events occurring, but a long, slow, and steady dimming has been occurring over the past 100 years. This dimming has reduced the star's light by 20% over that time. This type of dimming would be almost impossible to be comets, since the field would need to be unimaginably large to cause that much consistent dimming over such a long period of time.

Occam's Razor suggests both the long-term dimming and the short-term dimming are caused by the same thing, so if the long-term dimming is almost impossible to be comets, the short-term dimming is likely not comets either.

 

[DD-11]

If it is a dyson sphere. It's is complete now. They could also possibly create wormholes. If we can see them, they can almost certainly see us, and in much more detail.

Let's assume that is true. What's scary is that they could visit, but haven't bothered because we are insignificant to them. We would be less than what Ants are to us, and when was the last time we had meaningful communication with Ants?

We are very small and very insignificant.

 

[Mindlog]

But we haven't figured anything out, thats the problem...

Not a problem. Opportunity :]
Anytime we can wildly speculate on something that will likely end up being mundane is fun. Gotta get people looking up.

Don't forget everybody. On Sunday Space X is going to launch a rocket and then try to land it on a boat. Yep, LAND A ROCKET ON A BOAT.

 

[Ferr986]

I just can't believe something artificial like a Dyson sphere can even exist. It's just so crazy IMO.

Still, super curious about what behind this. Whatever it is (artificial, natural), its sure something fascinating.

 

[Graphics Horse]

The non-spherical star sounded like a good theory, where orbiting planets would produce unusual curves due to the unbalanced brightness of the star, what happened to that? A century of declining brightness could be explained by such a star having an axial precession that is slowly occluding more of the brighter parts from our view before it eventually swings back around.

 

[VARIA]

The non-spherical star sounded like a good theory, where orbiting planets would produce unusual curves due to the unbalanced brightness of the star, what happened to that? A century of declining brightness could be explained by such a star having an axial precession that is slowly occluding more of the brighter parts from our view before it eventually swings back around.

Get these rational theories outta here. It's obviously aliens.

Spoiler

;-)

 

[Jobbs]

Radio waves are light waves and travel at the speed of light.

If we were to send a radio transmission to the star, as opposed to a probe, it would take 1480 years to get there. Of course, any sort of response would be another 1480 years wait, assuming they also communicate via light waves.

we're also observing them 1480 years ago.. they could be long extinct

 

[Skinpop]

I just can't believe something artificial like a Dyson sphere can even exist. It's just so crazy IMO.

Still, super curious about what behind this. Whatever it is (artificial, natural), its sure something fascinating.

it probably can't. but a dyson swarm though. we could probably start building one now with our current tech.

 

[MrBigBoy]

If we were to send a radio transmission to the star, as opposed to a probe, it would take 1480 years to get there. Of course, any sort of response would be another 1480 years wait, assuming they also communicate via light waves.

But what if they can't receive radio transmissions? If so, all we send to them will be wasted time for us...

 

[velociraptor]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

 

[DivineRage002]

If it is a dyson sphere. It's is complete now. They could also possibly create wormholes. If we can see them, they can almost certainly see us, and in much more detail.

Let's assume that is true. What's scary is that they could visit, but haven't bothered because we are insignificant to them. We would be less than what Ants are to us, and when was the last time we had meaningful communication with Ants?

We are very small and very insignificant.

No because looking at them is looking 1480 years in the past, same for them towards us.

Right now, if they look at us, they will see the year ~536, which would be very early medieval.

There would be no radio emission to detect, no lights at night, no signals of any kind, only large-ish structures such as castles which would be most likely impossible to detect even for them.

However, they have most likely figured out that our planet is perfect for hosting life. And that could be a problem.

They still don't know we're here unless they have some other way to scan for life.

 

[Mindlog]

Someone remember please.
There's a simple catchy name/phrase to the idea that the first set of interstellar travelers will likely be passed by the second. What is that term?

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

No stupid questions. Always be curious :]
Yes, you are literally looking at that object in real time 1500 years into its past. Every star you see without a telescope is the same way. Even the sun is an ~8 minute old version by the time you see and feel its effects. With the proper tools seeing that structure orbit would most likely be possible.

 

[DivineRage002]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

Yes, you could see people (drones?) working on it, as they were 1480 years ago.

In theory (ok guys I'm really gonna push it here), if we could create a big enough wormhole, and had access to a big enough telescope that we could get through that wormhole, we could go 2016 light years away, observe the earth from there and potentially see Jesus himself.

I'm not even sure a type-2 civ would be able to do this, but in theory... it's possible.

 

[DarkKyo]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

Yes, you would. You would be able to watch a star going supernova in motion from 70 light years away. Of course it happened 70 years ago, but yes you would see it go through all the stages of supernova in "real time" because the light information is reaching you in real time.

Technically the events that you're watching unfold in front of you in the same room happened in the past and it's taking an infinitesimally small amount of time for the light information to reach your eyeballs.

 

[Ovid]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

The rate at which the light is be perceived is 1500 years old. If your telescope was able to see the star in "real-time" from that distance it would still be 1500 year old light waves.

Also, yes you would be able to see it in motion.

Remember, from those distances, your telescope would always be looking into the past.

 

[HStallion]

Someone remember please.
There's a simple catchy name/phrase to the idea that the first set of interstellar travelers will likely be passed by the second. What is that term?

Love is quantifiable

 

[infinitys_7th]

Well, you have the little problems of FTL being impossible and wormholes not existing.

If wormholes exist, FTL communication from the perspective of the universe outside the wormhole can be achieved.

Open a wormhole between points A and B 1 LY apart and send a radio burst through it from A to B. If the radio burst takes less than one year to pass through the wormhole from A to B, from a practical engineering viewpoint FTL has occurred. Has it really occurred? Not really, but it certainly appears that way as the burst has gone 1 LY in less than 1 year's time.

It's like entropic forces - it's not exactly what is happening, but it may as well be if you are trying to build something. Hydrophilic and hydrophobic are great tools for looking at the world, but they are not exactly accurate.

Wormholes are also theoretically possible, therefore this sort of FTL is theoretically possible as well.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

Yes, although I'm not sure if that kind of resolution is feasible or would require a lens the size of the solar system or something.

But yes, if something is 1500 light years away we are seeing what is "happening" there 1500 years ago.

 

[Graphics Horse]

This sounds so fucking stupid but if you look at something 1500 light years away using a telescope, are you looking at it in 'real time' but 1500 years ago? For example, if we had the capacity to see at such a high resolution but this was actually a mega structure... would we be able to see it in motion?

Yes, in theory... We can see pulsars which spin extremely fast, but all those spins happened thousands of years ago.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Yes, you could see people (drones?) working on it, as they were 1480 years ago.

In theory (ok guys I'm really gonna push it here), if we could create a big enough wormhole, and had access to a big enough telescope that we could get through that wormhole, we could go 2016 light years away, observe the earth from there and potentially see Jesus himself.

I'm not even sure a type-2 civ would be able to do this, but in theory... it's possible.

Or one day we'll find a big alien space mirror and we'll be able to study earth's history through an earth telescope.