Bobby Roberts
Banned
Every aspect of the Billie Lourde speculation has seemed weird/off/wrong.
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Star Wars: In Production [Rumors/SPOILERS for All Films Past, Present, & Future]
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Sectorseven
Member
Actually I kinda doubt anyone has seen her since Jedi. It's a lose-lose situation really. They either go to the trouble of de-aging her somehow and it looking incredibly distracting, or they show her as she is now and have everyone think "Wow, she got old. Maybe this wasn't such a good idea." At least Hamill has the convenient grace of falling into the Obi-Wan role.
Like I said, the only reason it had any legs I think is it came out before the sites with a strong track record started leaking lots of spoilers. People were desperate for anything so it got a lot of attention that now would be quickly dismissed.
FriendlyGoat
Member
There is nothing wrong with showing her old, even as her broken seeming self IRL. There's been a war, she's probably yelled at a lot of people and gone through some shit. Maybe she picked up death sticks to deal with the stress. A lot can happen in 30 years.
not like it wouldn't fit the political lifestyle at least a little bit
Sectorseven
Member
They could, but it's going to be hard to sell that without showing it. I just keep thinking of my parents. They're the quintessential "average moviegoers" and I can already imagine how they'd react to seeing her. I showed them pictures of Mark Hamill with the beard and they didn't roll their eyes. They haven't seen Carrie Fisher yet.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
There absolutely does not need to be any sort of stop-down in the storytelling to explain the very basic fact that a person doesn't look the same after 30 years of being alive. Most people inherently recognize this just as a matter of fact - especially older people.
I feel pretty safe in predicting (especially if she's only really got the one scene) you're not going to get an in-universe reason as to why Carrie Fisher looks like Carrie Fisher. It's not a question that needs answering.
I feel pretty safe in predicting (especially if she's only really got the one scene) you're not going to get an in-universe reason as to why Carrie Fisher looks like Carrie Fisher. It's not a question that needs answering.
I think it's a less of a deal than you think it is. Some people age badly, that's life. if they were worried of people being shocked by her appearance they would have wrote her out the movie. They aren't going to de-age her but leave ford and hamill. That is just absurd. It's been 30 years in the movie and real life.
Sectorseven
Member
It's not that far fetched really, especially if her role is small. There are VFX companies that specialize in altering women's appearances on screen.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
There's no reason to alter her appearance.
There is absolutely no reason to that. And it's be pretty offensive to do that to Fisher when they seem Hamill and Ford a'ok. They aren't going to digitally alter Leia or dub her voice. No chance at all.
People get old. Not everyone looks great at 58. No one needs to hide this. Leia IS Carrie Fisher. At 25 as well as 58.
CreepingFear
Member
If there is some sort of award ceremony for the new heroes at the end of Force Awakens, I hope Leia is the one to give them the award.
Anton Sugar
Member
This. What an absurd conversation to have.
When you think about it the ending of A New Hope it makes no sense.
The Empire knows where the Rebel is base is by the end of the movie. The first thing they should be doing after blowing up the Death Star is getting the hell off that planet ASAP. The Empire knows its location and would be sending in the fleet to blow it to bits soon as they figured out the Death Star was destroyed which wouldn't take very long.
Instead they decide to throw a massive ceremony at a location the Empire is well aware of by then?
The Empire knows where the Rebel is base is by the end of the movie. The first thing they should be doing after blowing up the Death Star is getting the hell off that planet ASAP. The Empire knows its location and would be sending in the fleet to blow it to bits soon as they figured out the Death Star was destroyed which wouldn't take very long.
Instead they decide to throw a massive ceremony at a location the Empire is well aware of by then?
CreepingFear
Member
A little party never hurt anyone! The Empire was too busy trying to locate Vader.
Sectorseven
Member
Hamill and Ford could very well be getting some of that treatment too for all we know, but the expectations are different for them. For the most part Hamill can hide under a beard and Jedi robe. Harrison Ford has been in lots of movies and we know what he looks like old, plus he's aged the most gracefully. They try to keep it subtle, like slightly narrowing hips or removing bags under the eyes or even putting younger looking wrinkles on. Everyone is altered on screen, it's just a question of how much.
The entire fleet wouldn't be looking for Vader. They'd send a few star destroyers to Yavin pretty much immediately soon as contact was lost with the Death Star I would think.
Also why the hell would they have those medals laying around? It's crazy. Not that I don't love all of it as absurd as the scene is.
CitizenVectron
Member
It's probably like the Superbowl: The Rebellion had a bunch of t-shirts and hats printed off saying "Galactic Military Champions" in case they won.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Yeah and maybe she got space cancer and now has a special breathing apparatus on her throat which changes her voice. Like a callback to Darth Vader. It's like poetry.
Lol, yeah I was thinking more symbolically... didn't really think out the full historical connotations. I deserved that.
Moff
Member
they could even make her a seasoned pod racer to close the circle
prag16
Banned
Well, I mean, a ton of stuff in ANH is absurd.
The "unmanned escape pod" is launched, and they do.. nothing? They don't destroy it, but don't even reel it back in with a tractor beam??
The crew of the ship waits by the door to get mowed down instead of doing... almost anything else? And that whole fight (along with what happened prior) pretty much blows any pretense Leia's trying to claim to have that she's just an innocent Senator on a diplomatic mission...
The stormtroopers murder Owen and Beru in cold blood and also burn their corpses out on their front porch? Because the droids they bought weren't there? Owen didn't seem to be the kind of guy to be so uncooperative that the consequences were being burned alive.
Luke tells the droids to go wander around outside the cantina by themselves... when he already knows a shitload of stormtroopers are looking for them. Obi-wan: "Good news, I found a pilot to take us to Alderaan, let's get going, where are the droids." Luke: "Erm, about that, I let them hang around outside unattended and some stormtroopers hauled them away."
This is just from the first 1/2 hour. Don't get me wrong, it's one of my all time top 5 movies. But I just don't bother nitpicking stuff like this in any serious manner, haha.
Discotheque
Banned
garbage writer and director combo. sounds like a winner.
heist movie though...the idea is fun.
Possible explanations i'd find plausible enough:
We could assume the Imperials are lazy and corrupted. Never do anything more than you absolutely have to. Scans don't show anything, don't bother.
They were about the only defensive positions in the ship. Once the enemy gets through airlocks, they can secure the ship sooner or later. It was the best chance at repelling the enemy... A hopeless battle of course. The novelization notes how the soldiers are ready to die, and it does imply the rebels know they're going to die, they're just buying time for Leia.
As for the diplomatic immunity, it would not have mattered even if they had surrendered. Their previous actions had already compromised it, and if they had complied and turned away from Tatooine, Leia would not have been able to complete her mission. It was a gamble.
The film doesn't make it clear but i figure Owen is exactly the kind of guy (and Tatooineans in general) who don't accept authority exactly. They live by their own rules. Remember what he says about the droids? He paid for them, he owns them now, the end. Sand People or Stormtroopers, they're not welcome to take his own.
("Darths and Droids" making Owen and Beru crazy survivalists is brilliant, and not too far from the truth either, i think.)
Also, the Empire is not known for being nice. Opposition is crushed with overwhelming force, whether it is necessary or not. Ties with the laziness and corruption. It is not a good system by any means.
And Luke isn't exactly the brightest boy around. Padme may have had brains but Luke obviously inherited Anakin's, which we know are not great either.
Plus he had just lost his only family, and is overwhelmed by the recent events. Presumably he also assumed the droids would realize to stay out of sight, Star Wars droids are intelligent after all. Plus hiding in the relatively populous Mos Eisley isn't that difficult, it is not like the Stormtroopers even knew exactly what they were looking for, how their targets look like and so on.
Didn't that guy direct American Pie? Goofy.
prag16
Banned
Haha, sure. I'd argue with some aspects of your justifications, but that's not really the point here. (Though it's fun to pick stuff like this apart! The one thing I'll add is that Vader should have gotten pissed and choked the fuck out of somebody when he found out his men stood and watched the escape pod containing the object of his desire harmlessly float away...)
UnforgivenTwin
Member
Will the main character be fucking a pie in this film?
freethought
Member
They destroy an entire planet at one point, for literally no cause. I don't think the Empire place much value on life, just saying. They killed all those Jawas too.
Yeah, but most of your nitpicks didn't really make sense. You have a problem that a bunch of rebel troopers are going to fight off an imperial boarding party? Why wouldn't they? And Leia's pretense is just that, she knows she's been caught bang to rights. You want her to just immediately and with no provocation offer a full and frank confession of her betrayal? And why wouldn't Luke leave the droids outside? They passed through the checkpoints, any imperial snooping around would go looking for the owner anyway. Even at the checkpoint, no-one examined the droids, they talked to the owner. Heck, the troopers who did come in to the cantina must have walked straight past them. The way you might walk past a bike rack, even if you were looking for a guy you knew had a bike.
The escape pod thing, yeah that's an oldie and a goodie. I agree there's no real explanation beyond George Lucas writing it in a world where ships don't have unlimited ammunition and don't just shoot random things. Still, even that's weak.
Buttonbasher
Member
Yeah I'm sure. Scoot McNairy will also be riding Godzilla in it too because no one is allowed to do anything different from what they've done in the past, legally in Hollywood.
Looking forward to Rian Johnson's Star Wars wherein Looper wears a cloak and uses a light saber to investigate crime at his high school.
*Joke about lens flares to remain a unique snowflake*
UnforgivenTwin
Member
Not sure if you are mocking my post. But if you are...it was a joke.
prag16
Banned
Does everything on the internet have to turn into a big argument? I in turn think some of your justifications are weak too, and could easily counter, but I'm done with this pointless (and off topic) argument.
I was just bringing up some examples when someone mentioned the fact that the rebels had medals lying around as being dumb. Of course almost anything can be somewhat explained away.
Lucky Forward
Member
Maybe Leia will wear her bounty hunter mask from ROTJ for the entire movie. It would solve both the appearance and the voice problems.
What's wrong with a little homage to the Nazis?
#5. Star Wars: A New Hope -- The Final Scene Is from a Nazi Propaganda Film
freethought
Member
^^^^Star Wars has way more obvious homages to the Nazis than that. It looks more like a church. The lighting certainly is more 'church' than anything.
I guess my point wasn't to try and have an argument about this justification or that. Just that a plot hole is generally agreed to be something that breaks the internal logic of a movie and none of your examples (barring the escape pod) really do that. Good guys fighting bad guys, a hero standing up to a villain, bad guys killing people. None of those are plot holes. Even the droids are reinforced continually in the film as 'not people'. Nobody outside of Luke and maybe Ben even addresses them directly in Mos Eisley, they're equipment. That's how the film presents them. So again, I'd argue the clearly established internal logic of the movie is maintained.
One ship seizing another for the express purpose of obtaining stolen data and then allowing anything to leave the ship is a plot hole. It breaks the internal logic of the scene. Heck, even if there was someone in there and it was destroyed, Vader would likely have been unhappy about that too. Then the later addition of tractor beams to the film's setting breaks the logic of the previous scene even further. It's a very problematic scene. Any attempt to explain it is either a convoluted mess of in-universe fanon or just explained by the fact that the movie was written by a person and people are fallible.
It's similar to the whole 'parsec' debacle in a way. Is George Lucas lazy or is Han Solo a liar? The trouble with this is the answer is both. Ben was always meant to be sceptical of Han's boast, even when the script included the phrase 'standard time part'. Lucas threw the word parsec in because it sounded spacey, assuming because it ended with 'sec' that it was a measurement of time. Now whether or not Ben and Han both being unaware what a parsec is breaks the logic of the scene is up to you. I say yes.
edit: Then of course when an imperial search party does show up, Threepio and Artoo hide themselves anyway, drawing even less attention to their party.
I guess my point wasn't to try and have an argument about this justification or that. Just that a plot hole is generally agreed to be something that breaks the internal logic of a movie and none of your examples (barring the escape pod) really do that. Good guys fighting bad guys, a hero standing up to a villain, bad guys killing people. None of those are plot holes. Even the droids are reinforced continually in the film as 'not people'. Nobody outside of Luke and maybe Ben even addresses them directly in Mos Eisley, they're equipment. That's how the film presents them. So again, I'd argue the clearly established internal logic of the movie is maintained.
One ship seizing another for the express purpose of obtaining stolen data and then allowing anything to leave the ship is a plot hole. It breaks the internal logic of the scene. Heck, even if there was someone in there and it was destroyed, Vader would likely have been unhappy about that too. Then the later addition of tractor beams to the film's setting breaks the logic of the previous scene even further. It's a very problematic scene. Any attempt to explain it is either a convoluted mess of in-universe fanon or just explained by the fact that the movie was written by a person and people are fallible.
It's similar to the whole 'parsec' debacle in a way. Is George Lucas lazy or is Han Solo a liar? The trouble with this is the answer is both. Ben was always meant to be sceptical of Han's boast, even when the script included the phrase 'standard time part'. Lucas threw the word parsec in because it sounded spacey, assuming because it ended with 'sec' that it was a measurement of time. Now whether or not Ben and Han both being unaware what a parsec is breaks the logic of the scene is up to you. I say yes.
edit: Then of course when an imperial search party does show up, Threepio and Artoo hide themselves anyway, drawing even less attention to their party.
Fits with the producer-as-actual-creative-force direction of the series ala James Bond (Purvis & Wade)
prag16
Banned
Well, I didn't claim any of them to be "plot holes". Just like the rebels having medals lying around isn't a plot hole either. Hanging around Yavin IV for an extra day to have a ceremony is somewhat more questionable though, but still not necessarily a plot hole, though it probably would have been prudent to gtfo asap.
As for the parsec thing, I guess Lucas probably screwed up, but I think in the EU it was retconned to mean they could go fast enough to skirt closer to all the black holes in the maw without being pulled across the event horizons, thus shortening the journey, making a distance measure more reasonable. I guess I kind of accepted that 'explanation' years ago, haha. Just another thing not to think to hard about, just like everything else we've discussed about ANH.
The Force influenced events in a favorable manner.
It's magic I ain't gotta explain shit.
freethought
Member
^^^^A preferable answer to any EU explanation, unless it is the EU explanation. Then it's George Lucas' fault.
Yeah that happened. I think I read somewhere that the imperial who let the escape pod go was a rebel sympathiser according to some EU book as well.
Such explanations depress me more than the inconsistencies they seek to explain to be honest.
edit: I guess my thing with the droids is they're portrayal is a bit like runaway slaves in 19th century America and the film reinforces this tremendously until they get on board the millenium falcon at which point nobody ever considers droids to be enslaved or oppressed in any fashion ever again for the rest of the franchise. That's a bit weird too to be honest, especially when you consider Threepio was built by a slave to make his slave mother's life easier. The slave of a slave and he gets no justice in six films. Someone erases his entire past at one point too, on a whim. Mind you, I always knew Jimmy Smits was a bastard. Alan Alda for life. I suppose he is declared a god at one point, but by Ewoks so it's not that good.
Yeah that happened. I think I read somewhere that the imperial who let the escape pod go was a rebel sympathiser according to some EU book as well.
Such explanations depress me more than the inconsistencies they seek to explain to be honest.
Yoda said:
edit: I guess my thing with the droids is they're portrayal is a bit like runaway slaves in 19th century America and the film reinforces this tremendously until they get on board the millenium falcon at which point nobody ever considers droids to be enslaved or oppressed in any fashion ever again for the rest of the franchise. That's a bit weird too to be honest, especially when you consider Threepio was built by a slave to make his slave mother's life easier. The slave of a slave and he gets no justice in six films. Someone erases his entire past at one point too, on a whim. Mind you, I always knew Jimmy Smits was a bastard. Alan Alda for life. I suppose he is declared a god at one point, but by Ewoks so it's not that good.
Sectorseven
Member
I thought they didn't destroy the pod because they wanted to check if the plans were hidden inside.
Which doesn't make any sense at all unless the Empire can't be bothered doing data backups.
The fact the plans may be in the pod or some other vehicle is why you destroy anything trying to launch away from the Star Destroyer.
freethought
Member
^^^^Yeah, they didn't need the plans, they just had to stop the rebels getting them. But the whole thing is weird. Everyone seems to emhasise the physical tapes but then they were 'beamed' aboard. Honestly, it was written in the seventies and 'data' wasn't a part of everyday life so it all seems hokey.
Tractor beam.
Vader's the first person to suspect this. If you did want to construct some elaborate justification it could be that it simply isn't SOP to shoot an empty anything and the existence or theft of the Death Star plans was still secret. Of course then the implication is that they had orders to kill anyone fleeing the ship which contradicts Vader's on screen order to bring the passengers to him alive. It would also make his sudden revelation of these secret plans minutes later (or earlier actually) seem awfully cavalier.
Tractor beam.
Vader's the first person to suspect this. If you did want to construct some elaborate justification it could be that it simply isn't SOP to shoot an empty anything and the existence or theft of the Death Star plans was still secret. Of course then the implication is that they had orders to kill anyone fleeing the ship which contradicts Vader's on screen order to bring the passengers to him alive. It would also make his sudden revelation of these secret plans minutes later (or earlier actually) seem awfully cavalier.
Sectorseven
Member
But if they destroyed the pod they wouldn't know for sure if the plans were on board and they'd be wasting time looking elsewhere.
Then why were they shooting down pods with life signs?
freethought
Member
It literally makes no sense. Lucas just couldn't figure out another way to get the droids to the surface. To be honest I can sympathise with him, he was faced with a unique problem. Sneaking a couple of characters away from a battle is usually pretty easy in a film but Lucas has to get these guys down through the vacuum of space to the surface of a planet under the shadow of a giant battleship. Tricky situation.
Sectorseven
Member
Did they mention shooting them down? I can't remember. Maybe they captured the other ones. Vader was pretty insistent on questioning everyone.
prag16
Banned
The "hold your fire" line implies the orders were to destroy the others. Which doesn't really make sense.
Should have been tractor beams for everything, period.
To make it a little more reasonable, Lucas probably could have moved the Leia recording scene up to almost the very start of the movie, and had the escape pod jettison while the corvette was still on the run, exchanging shots with the Star Destroyer. A bit easier that way to justify something slipping through the cracks in the confusion.