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Star Wars: In Production [Rumors/SPOILERS for All Films Past, Present, & Future]

Cheebo

Banned
Sometimes I feel like a noob. Why the Sith never coming back? Isn't a Sith just a force user who goes dark? Wouldn't a "knight of ren" force user be essentially the same thing as a Sith?
Sith is its own unique religion.

We have had numerous dark side users who aren't Sith Lords. Such as Ventress, Talzin, etc.

Anakin/Vader being the chosen one, of which he fufilled the prophecy when he sacrificed himself and killed Sidious which ended the Sith line.

Abrams has even mentioned in a interview that the Knights of Ren are not the Sith, two different things. It was when we first learned of the Knights of Ren iirc.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I'd rather have cool new characters if it's an option to do so. Yeah, maybe it'd be cool for Serkis to play Plagueis. But I think it's even cooler that he's going to create his own character, unique to this movie.

New characters keep things vital in a way callbacks can't.

Plagueis would have effectively been a new character anyway since he was so sparsely used. Due to the canon wipe they could do whatever they want with him, opening up a whole new story while also tying everything together with a nice bow. The circle <would have been> complete. It depends on how Snoke turns out though - if his story is really interesting and compelling, there won't be a problem. If he's just an ex-Inquisitor or something, well, that's kind of boring.

I think part of the desire to see Plagueis reappear, or at least how it was for me, was that his death was left open. Did he really die or did he somehow find a path to immortality after all?

Charles Foster Kane said:
Sometimes I feel like a noob. Why the Sith never coming back? Isn't a Sith just a force user who goes dark? Wouldn't a "knight of ren" force user be essentially the same thing as a Sith?

The Sith are a distinct Force tradition that severed ties with the Jedi during the Hundred Years' Darkness. They have their own views, rites, traditions, etc. It's like how just because someone uses the Force and isn't bad doesn't mean they're a Jedi - the Jedi are a specific organization. Similarly, in real life, just because someone believes in Jesus doesn't make them Catholic. You have to follow the teachings.

The Sith were reorganized by Darth Bane following their collapse after the Jedi's victory in their final war after the fall of the Old Republic, establishing the Rule of Two, in which there could only be a master and an apprentice. Since Anakin killed Palpatine and got himself fried in RotJ, there were no more Sith left. If someone then called themselves a Sith, they would be a pretender (unless, of course, they became so successful that nobody else cared and pretended it was a Sith revival), because there would be no legitimate claim to the chain of previous Sith. This was all much more haphazard in the old expanded universe, where the Banite Sith were merely one branch of Sith who survived after the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, with others surviving on Kesh, Kalakar Six, etc. and other branches of the Sith popping off of the Banite Sith or rising in opposition to its ideas (Lumiya's Sith, the One Sith, etc.). None of that extra stuff is canon anymore though. The Knights of Ren appear to be a totally different order of Force users who share some aesthetics with the Sith, but what their purpose or world view is like is so far unknown.
 
Sometimes I feel like a noob. Why the Sith never coming back? Isn't a Sith just a force user who goes dark? Wouldn't a "knight of ren" force user be essentially the same thing as a Sith?

Up until the re-organization of the canon, Sith and Dark Force users were two different things. It seems like they're keeping that as the concept, though.
 
The Emperor was a vaguely defined mysterious enemy when Star Wars first came around, the Sith weren't even mentioned, and the Jedi were largely a mystery too. Similarly, in the prequels Palpatine was literally the Phantom Menace

By this point the Jedi and the Sith are too well defined to build a new Trilogy upon. If Snoke and Kylo were Sith we would already know what they are all about. I mean, this is Star Wars so the broad strokes are gonna be pretty black and white, but with the Knights of Ren and rebuilding of the Jedi (or whatever Luke wants to call it) there is new history to mine--new questions to answer and mysteries to explore. Thankfully there is no reason to expect they'd blow all that with Plagueis. Knowing nothing is exciting.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Hmm, I didn't get all those shades of gray from the OT

The OT didn't even talk about the Sith, because Lucas hadn't come up with most of it yet. He played around with various ideas about the Sith in the earliest drafts, with them being pirates at one point, so he always had something in the back of his mind.

The first time someone tried to do something with the Sith in the EU was when Zahn wanted to make an alien race called the Sith who were subservient to Vader, which would be why he was called the "Dark Lord of the Sith", but Lucas rejected it and Zahn turned it into the Noghri instead. Pretty much all dark side users were just treated as "Dark Jedi" throughout the 80s and early 90s.

The "Sith-as-aliens" idea popped up again in the 90s with the stories about Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, where it's explained that the term Sith originally belonged to a red-skinned humanoid species from Korriban who were conquered by ancient Dark Jedi expelled from the Order; the Dark Jedi then took on the title "Lords of the Sith"/"Sith Lords" and as they interbred and over time wiped out the Sith Purebloods, the term "Sith" simply came to be applied to the Jedi's arch-enemies in various permutations (the Sith Empire that stemmed from the original Dark Jedi, the Sith Empire led by Lord Vitiate that was an offshoot, the Sith Brotherhood led by Exar Kun, Malak and Revan's Sith Empire, the later Sith Empire under Darth Ruin, the even later Brotherhood of Darkness under Skere Kaan, etc.)

The old EU was really mixed up about this stuff, mostly because the writers did whatever they wanted without a story group like we have under the new canon. It does give a really interesting sense of history in depth though, since they keep splintering, like real world religions do.

George never cared about this stuff and his notes during the prequel trilogy indicate that the Sith were founded two thousand years prior to TPM by a Jedi who split from the Order and came to be known as Darth Ruin. Then they fought a bunch of wars with the Jedi, got wiped out, and Darth Bane reorganized it. That was the extent of his vision of the Sith at the time of TPM, and The Clone Wars expanded on it a bit, but the Darth Ruin part never got canonized since it never appeared outside of notes.
 

Cheebo

Banned
I have never watched the clone wars.
You really need to fix this, ASAP. Before The Force Awakens.

I would call The Clone Wars very essential viewing for the franchise.


Technically the Sith were mentioned in a lot of merchandise and other media at the time of release in 1977. Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith in the original novelization and on toy packaging and the like. Same way we knew who the Emperor was and that was was once Senator Palptine back in '77.
 

Moff

Member
plagueis was killed by palpatine
if you need to bring someone back, make it palpatine
but they won't, it's time for new stuff
 

CD'S BAR

Member
Don't bring him back, but if they do, change his species to human or something. That Muun or whatever the EU made him is like one of the dumbest looking races in Star Wars.
 
There is no chance whatsoever of that. Lawrence Kasdan was asked about Plaguies at comic con and was confused by the question and had no clue who the character even was.

The exchange at SDCC sounded sarcastic and when JJ jumps in it seemed weird. I'm still hoping.
 
Speculation naturally gravitates towards characters and concepts we already know to fill in the gaps.

I think the opportunity to create something new for both Abrams and the Story Group would far outweigh dipping into the lore for content.
 
You really need to fix this, ASAP. Before The Force Awakens.

I would call The Clone Wars very essential viewing for the franchise.


Technically the Sith were mentioned in a lot of merchandise and other media at the time of release in 1977. Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith in the original novelization and on toy packaging and the like. Same way we knew who the Emperor was and that was was once Senator Palptine back in '77.

Yes it is. My favorite Star Wars in general.

No one really seriously thinks he is anymore. It's just a joke fanboy conspiracy theory.

Even though I like Darth Plagueis, I am glad that rumor turned out to be untrue.
 
See you guys on Monday.
tumblr_nndmfp05w41rvn6njo1_250.gif
 

inm8num2

Member
I'm looking forward to the meltdowns of unsullied fans from the expected minimal or nonexistent presence of Luke in the new trailer.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Yeah, I saw a few people in the other side's thread saying that the trailer needs Luke or a shot of the OT3 together and I had to bite my tongue.
 
Folks over at StarWarsJunk are still saying the trailer will be online Friday and it won't debut with Monday Night Football. They're also saying no new logo either.

I think it was these guys who got the Disney/theater emails about a delivery coming and their source saying "Trailer on Friday" is the same source who told them back in August about the 15 second Instagram teaser...which they broke the news 24 hours before it went live.
I'm inclined to believe them because they broke the Instagram teaser and revealing a new logo makes no sense right now, not when all the merchandise has launched already.
 

prag16

Banned
Yeah, I saw a few people in the other side's thread saying that the trailer needs Luke or a shot of the OT3 together and I had to bite my tongue.
*sigh* I don't necessarily hate the way they seem to be going. But not even a single shot of the original big three together makes me a sad panda.
 

Cheebo

Banned
*sigh* I don't necessarily hate the way they seem to be going. But not even a single shot of the original big three together makes me a sad panda.
I was listening to the Making Star Wars podcast this week and they make a really interesting point. The fact that Han dies before Luke comes back adds a lot to that ending shot of ROTJ of the big 3 hugging and smiling. It is the last time we we will ever see them together knowing how things fall apart after (Luke disappearing, Han and Leia seemingly breaking up and having a son go bad, Hans death...etc) knowing we will never again see them happy together alongside one another after this.

It makes the ending bittersweet and have new context.
 

Tookay

Member
*sigh* I don't necessarily hate the way they seem to be going. But not even a single shot of the original big three together makes me a sad panda.

I kind of agree.

But then, I'm also sort of proud of them for avoiding going for the obvious nostalgia buttons. Hopefully that's indicative of the fact that they have a good story to tell.
 
Random TFA question, is that Poe character just the new Wedge, or is he something more?

Considering his considerable presence in marketing materials, he is most certainly something considerably more.

He is integral to the plot, and not just a pilot with a name and a few lines. Wedge may have captured our hearts, but he did not capture much screentime.
 

womp

Member
More trading cards revealed?

Not sure if some of these have floated around before. drew attention to this card as a confirmation of Rey piloting the Falcon (something we already knew).


That shot looks like it could be from the end of the movie when Rey, Chewie, and BB-8 go to find Luke.

Heh, this set has been out on the card trader app for a month now...very cool images. Unfortunately I was disappointed when I opened that link and found that it was just pics of the digital cards I already had. :(

Nothing new for me sadly.
 
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