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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
- Thread starter Scrow
- Start date
MisterAnderson
Member
I just (pretty much) finished my new map. I haven't thought of a name I'm happy with yet but here's what it looks like:
It's a 1v1 and a 2v2 map, and was designed to be played 2v2 from top to bottom. But after thinking about it some I'm wondering if maybe it would be more interesting if it was the left side vs the right side? I would change the high yield minerals to be in the center if that was the case and make the current high yield patches to be normal. I feel like it might make it too turtle friendly if it was changed to be left vs right...but not sure. Any suggestions/opinions based on what I have?
Edit:
:lol Bolded made me laugh.
It's a 1v1 and a 2v2 map, and was designed to be played 2v2 from top to bottom. But after thinking about it some I'm wondering if maybe it would be more interesting if it was the left side vs the right side? I would change the high yield minerals to be in the center if that was the case and make the current high yield patches to be normal. I feel like it might make it too turtle friendly if it was changed to be left vs right...but not sure. Any suggestions/opinions based on what I have?
Edit:
Mudkips said:
:lol Bolded made me laugh.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769
Has anyone read this post? It's very long, but even being the noob that I am I definitely notice a distinct difference in the way the unit movement "feels" compared to Starcraft 1. This is especially apparent with flying units. I definitely agree that without a rich micro game, Starcraft 2 will not come close to reaching the status of its predecessor.
Also, are chat rooms being left out on purpose? Is this really a feature that Blizzard does not plan to feature? Other than the matchmaking, my experiences with this new Battle.net have been less than stellar.
Has anyone read this post? It's very long, but even being the noob that I am I definitely notice a distinct difference in the way the unit movement "feels" compared to Starcraft 1. This is especially apparent with flying units. I definitely agree that without a rich micro game, Starcraft 2 will not come close to reaching the status of its predecessor.
Also, are chat rooms being left out on purpose? Is this really a feature that Blizzard does not plan to feature? Other than the matchmaking, my experiences with this new Battle.net have been less than stellar.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Kodiak said:
I got ranked down into Bronze as well after a victory. Sure I lost a few games before that victory, but the timing of my re-ranking certainly isn't the best :lol
Zefah said:
This sounds a lot like the 'wavedashing' debate. It really has nothing to do with the ability to micro as much as it has the requirement to learn physics tricks.
Also, they're talking about comparing the tricks learned over nine years of one game versus one which isn't even out yet. It says one of the first uses of moving shot with a drone was in 2007. Don't you think the micro game for Starcraft 2 is going to be different in 2019?
MisterAnderson
Member
Halycon said:
:lol I actually noticed that before posting the picture and was pretty much expecting someone to point this out. I'll change the shape a bit.
Datwheezy said:
You can copy and paste terrain or any other layer. You just click and drag, copy and paste, then before placing down the terrain or units you can flip it horizontally or vertically, or rotate it 90%. Awesome time saver and keeps things symmetrical. Occasionally though after pasting terrain it glitches a bit and adds some weird cliff edges that I need to go in and touch up.
JoeMartin said:
Yeah I thought that might be the case, I'm thinking about removing the "shaft" part of the start location cocks (lol) and just making it a traditional ramp which would open up the natural expansion choke point considerably. Also it's probably hard to tell, but the ramps and chokes are all wide-ish (like scrap station).
Some issues:MisterAnderson said:
-Combined tower control gives too much vision imo. The other 2 towers are too easily accessed early game, maybe put it behind the rocks.
-If map is Top vs Bottom the Mineral expos (especially in a 2v2) are basically free. They are in a very easily defended spot between 2 fields of view. In a 1v1 you can easily defend the 2 expos which is very very powerful. (Tower sight + smoke to block their sight)
-If the map is Left vs Right the top and bottom expos play a different role in balance and that is whoever secures them (because they are linked) gains both. Even if the other team takes the middle (risky as shit) they are down 2 bases (or will be denied bases).
It might be an interesting play concept but looking at it from a BW angle it doesn't seem right to have them linked.
*Looking at it more I'm seeing the positioning + travel times and high grounds and I think it could work out the way it is right now. The defender still has a large lead and if the aggressor (1v1 Top v Bottom) tries to attack the bottom or 1st expo a lot of walking has to be done to either catch the other army out of position (doubtful with towers) or engage in a choke, or just at a disadvantage.
It does look like a turtle map or one to abuse air with.
Good job.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
webrunner said:
It still doesn't make sense to me, even from a lore perspective, that units actually became less mobile as time went by.
The moving shot with a drone may have first been used in a tournament in 2007, but moving shot techniques with other units, particularly flying ones, have been around for a long, long time.
Starcraft 2 is going to be competing with its predecessor for professional players, and I don't know if it can afford to have less of a micro game.
Valenti, I'm so sorry for that game earlier, haha. That was one of my worst games, I just need some coffee I guess. Played a game right after we played and swept the board, so let's just chalk our game up as a "fluke."
And sorry being kind of weird in the chat. I thought you guys were from GAF, but I wasn't sure.
I'm eating dinner right now, but I'll be back on in about 45 minutes if anyone wants to play. Just add preservative.fruit.
And sorry being kind of weird in the chat. I thought you guys were from GAF, but I wasn't sure.
I'm eating dinner right now, but I'll be back on in about 45 minutes if anyone wants to play. Just add preservative.fruit.
MisterAnderson
Member
Hazaro said:
Thanks for all of the input, I'm going to go back and change some stuff up. I have some ideas that might help it be less turtlefest and to make the bottom and top expos not so crazy good. Also not sure if you noticed but I did put some high ledges on the side of those expos to make them vulnerable to a surprise attack, but yeah I guess those top and bottom towers make that pretty difficult. Those two towers were the last things I added, I'll probably just take them out. I'll come back in a bit with some changes.
Major Williams
Member
How come when I create a match vs. AI, I can only select Very Easy AI... is this because that's the only option the put in the beta?
yesMajor Williams said:
they want you to play multiplayer matches so they can gather real statistics on balance. playing against AI doesn't give them that valuable data, so they only provided the most rudimentary AI so you can practice build orders and timings.
MisterAnderson
Member
Haly, I took what you said and tried my best to change things up for the better. The entrances to the bottom and top expansions are changed so that there's an entrance to each. I removed the rocks and instead placed a double row of rocks behind the expansions blocking off the tower and a backdoor into the adjacent expansion. You can break one rock to gain access to the tower, but to open up the path to the adjacent expansion you must break two.
I removed the cock ramps at the start locations to widen the choke points at the natural expansions to make the map not as turtle friendly. I also added smoke blocking off the left and right towers for the hell of it.
And yeah I realize that the middle expansions are extremely high risk, and am contemplating just removing the resources there. I just figured there's enough room for them, so it might make for an interesting end-game if the game lasts long enough to where the map starts getting mined out.
Also, "Forsaken Crater" looks like a fun map. At first glance it looks best suited for a 4 player free for all, but who knows until we are able to test it out.
Edit: Updated image with high yield in the middle
I removed the cock ramps at the start locations to widen the choke points at the natural expansions to make the map not as turtle friendly. I also added smoke blocking off the left and right towers for the hell of it.
And yeah I realize that the middle expansions are extremely high risk, and am contemplating just removing the resources there. I just figured there's enough room for them, so it might make for an interesting end-game if the game lasts long enough to where the map starts getting mined out.
Also, "Forsaken Crater" looks like a fun map. At first glance it looks best suited for a 4 player free for all, but who knows until we are able to test it out.
Edit: Updated image with high yield in the middle
MisterAnderson said:
Change the left and right expansions to normal expos and remove the rocks. Putting defendable, rocked chokes on high yeild expos sounds like a bad idea anyway.
Make the middle expansions high yield.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Its nice that Real ID Friends says where they are currently doing under the name. They should add that too just regular SC2 ID friends too.
Like its telling me my RL friend is currently In the Menus....then says he is doing a Quick match 1v1
Like its telling me my RL friend is currently In the Menus....then says he is doing a Quick match 1v1
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Vikings really need a boost upgrade in the Tech Lab.
MisterAnderson said:
Suggestion if I may:
Make the left and right expos normal rather than high yield, then make the middle expansions high yield and put rocks blocking both the north and south entrance so that they are more easily defended.
Just a thought, could lead to some fun skirmishes in the middle of the map.
MisterAnderson
Member
ZealousD said:
Alright, I swapped the high yield location with the middle. I'm not so sure about removing the rocks to that expo though, as the rocks were mainly put there to create a backdoor into the natural expansion. If that's clear of rocks then there are 3 ways into the natural expansion from the get-go.
Kodiak said:
I contemplated that but as Zealous said, making high yield defend-able with rocks makes it not as risky, which is the point. But who knows, once we're able to test the levels I might try that to see how it works.
Edit: Updated image with high yield in the center. I'm starting to really think that it would be best suited left vs right for 2v2 instead of top vs bottom. That would also make removing the rocks Zealous suggested make more sense. Except in 1v1 matches.
How do you beat Terran as Protoss?? It's getting ridiculous. Between getting reaper rushed every match and vikings able to destroy voidrays and colossi, I really don't know what I could possibly do to win a match. I win 9/10 matches as Zerg, but if I go up against Terran as protoss it's almost a guaranteed loss. They just have cheaper/faster counters to anything I can throw at them.. Plus I can't control the map like I can with Zerg.
MisterAnderson said:
yeah I see your point. one of the new maps has open high yields in the middle and I've won almost every game on it so far just by running a probe down there and grabbing the high yield really early on.
maybe just make it one high yield rather than two? I dunno. I need to get my hands on the editor...
Kodiak690 said:
Proxy cannons early, voidray cheese before they get air, or protect your collosi with a better unit mix.
honestly though, phoenix need a buff because they are weak shit compared to muta and vikings.
Kodiak said:
Vikings tear up Voidrays and Colossi.. They're faster to get, cheaper, more numerous.. They have a HUGE range and are faster than VRs.. If you try to VR rush, if they hit your base, you're screwed.
I just don't see how I can possibly beat Terran. Everything I do, they do better.
Typically I get a nice mix of stalkers, sentries and colossi then start getting Void Rays.. They take out my VRs and Colossi with vikings and then their MMM runs over my stalkers/sentires like they're not even there. Even using the sentries shields/forcefields..
The only time I win against Terran is if the play is obviously very bad at this game, which doesn't make me feel any better.
Not to mention reapers destroying any chance I have at getting ahead early.. If I try to attack their base with my ground forces, I get destroyed by seige tanks behind their wall-in.
It's so frustrating. I want to play as Toss, but not if I lose all the time. Maybe I should just go back to Zerg and win 9/10 matches..
Kodiak690 said:
1. look up PvT pro replays
2. if they are completely siege tank turtling... that leaves you free to expand.
3. i cant imagine vikigns tearing up your collossi if they are protected by sentries and stalkers. also, maybe dont go voidrays, and use whatever that light flying unit is instead?
ZealousD said:
That's the problem.. They counter everything I have, but better or more easily. Almost every terran I play against goes MMM with a few seige tanks, they wall in, reaper rush me and then get a huge amount of vikings. The vikings wreck VRs and Colossi, which is my only chance at beating them. I can't counter anything when they do everything better than toss can.
mcrae said:
Vikings have huge range, so they can hit the colossi well behind their MM lines.. If they focus fire them one at a time, the colossi go down in seconds. Stalkers can't do anything because the MM hold them back.. It's hard to take out 20+ Vikings when they're supported by mass marines and mauraders with some seige tanks.
Maybe I'll try phoenix to counter, but like someone said, they're pretty bad compared to the other races light fliers.
I'll go try and find some pro replays and see if I can pick up any tips..
Kodiak said:
I just started playing Toss yesterday after getting bored with Zerg. I don't know.. Vikings seem to destroy anything I throw at them. Every player I come across usually has a squad of at least 20 of them, which easily takes out any colossi or VRs I have. I'm about to say screw it and go play Terran or Zerg again!
I'll look into templars, but that's stretching it with all the other units I get.
Thanks for the help, guys.
If you see someone with 20 vikings just stop producing collosus, put few warpgates, spam some t1 mix and win since by spamming vikings which are useless on the ground terrans nerf their MM or whatever thing they might have.
Edit: Also be sure to research blink/charge since it decimates terran
Edit: Also be sure to research blink/charge since it decimates terran
Try keeping your collosi behind your army instead of on the same hotkey, also stalkers with blink work very nicely (Snipe vikings, blink to marines/tanks to have T kill all their units, sentries to FF mards/marines away from collosi). Nightmare.
I find that I can't beat a decent P as T. Reaper rushing is NOT that strong. Annoying yes, but that's why you scout before wall to see if they are getting early gas or not. A single stalker defends your entire base.
I find that I can't beat a decent P as T. Reaper rushing is NOT that strong. Annoying yes, but that's why you scout before wall to see if they are getting early gas or not. A single stalker defends your entire base.
MisterAnderson
Member
Eh, I'm kind of discouraged. Just messed around a bit with that map, it's just too damn big. I wish it was easier to go in and do surgery on maps but as it is it's a pain in the ass to copy and paste sections to move them. I wish you could highlight terran and move what's highlight instead of copy and pasting and trial and erroring where it's going to end up (since for some dumb reason it doesn't show a ghost image of what you are about to paste).
Kodiak690 said:
They're going mass vikings because you're going mass Colossi.
Just a few Colossi are usually enough to help counter against MM balls. What are you supporting them with? You should be mixing those Colossi with other ground units, like zealots and stalkers.
Void Rays are very situational and not something you should be massing, either.
Protoss versus Terran:
Unless he is going heavy marines (as in, heavily lopsided ratio in the MMM ball), immortals are amazing. Their shield bonus reduces damage from both the siege tanks and marauders, while their cannons deal 20 base +30 to armored (read: marauders and tanks). Support that with two gateways pumping zealots and Stalkers, and you stand a decent chance. Try to catch them before the tanks are in siege mode, but blink and charge help against that tremendously.
I've also had some luck with Void Rays; if their MMM ball is heavily marauders (thinking that their marauders will mess up your zealots and stalkers), you can focus fire the marines and dominate the rest of the units once the AA is gone.. Marines are the only real Terran ground unit that Void Rays should be afraid of, as Thors are usually not too attractive against Toss.
Once you start massing Void Rays or Collosi, your opponent is going to switch to Valks, so be flexible and try to get more Immortals and Stalkers.
Unless he is going heavy marines (as in, heavily lopsided ratio in the MMM ball), immortals are amazing. Their shield bonus reduces damage from both the siege tanks and marauders, while their cannons deal 20 base +30 to armored (read: marauders and tanks). Support that with two gateways pumping zealots and Stalkers, and you stand a decent chance. Try to catch them before the tanks are in siege mode, but blink and charge help against that tremendously.
I've also had some luck with Void Rays; if their MMM ball is heavily marauders (thinking that their marauders will mess up your zealots and stalkers), you can focus fire the marines and dominate the rest of the units once the AA is gone.. Marines are the only real Terran ground unit that Void Rays should be afraid of, as Thors are usually not too attractive against Toss.
Once you start massing Void Rays or Collosi, your opponent is going to switch to Valks, so be flexible and try to get more Immortals and Stalkers.