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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)

webrunner

Member
Zefah said:
That last comment was more from a lore perspective. Why are units suddenly unable to do things that they used to be able to do? Also I just don't see why, after streamlining the interface and giving the player more control over the macro game, that Blizzard thought it would be a good idea to take away some control from the micro game.

The ability to move and shoot was not something that, in lore, the units had. It was a side effect of the movement physics that was embraced by the pro scene.

If the units in question were supposed to be able to move-and-shoot, it would be built into their default behaviors (like it is with the Vulture and Seige Tank, who can explicitly fire in one direction and move in another)

Other units require exploiting the behaviors (using 'stop' and 'patrol') to activate these glitches.

Also, I thought Immortals (or stalkers? I can't remember which) could 'dance'? I remember hearing that somewhere.
 
Adent said:
Basically the pros are the old vets and everyone else are D-noobs, including Dusting Browder. That lack of respect for both the casual player and the developer is just disgusting. I'm going to have trust that Blizzard knows more about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game because they've made one before.
Exactly. I have a feeling Blizzard (and Browder) are going to fucking knock this one out of the park.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Zefah said:
When I talk about macro I am speaking more to the player's overall strategy, managing the economy, building stuff, getting tech upgrades, etc... Interface improvements, such as being able to select multiple buildings at once and set relay points directly onto minerals, effectively improved control on this part of the game and made the macro game a bit less busy.

When I'm talking about micro I am referring to the player's control of their units whether individually or in a group. Smart movement of one's units is always important in an RTS and being able to multitask multiple groups and types of units to attack your opponent or defend your assets is what tends to set players apart.

Blizzard's already addressed micro in interviews when it came to game strategies - they intend to make it so micro-ing units allows those units which are normally favored to lose, to win. They gave examples with the blink micro allowing certain units to beat units they're weak against, by taking advantage of blink w/ good micro.

It sounds like what it comes down to is giving every unit abilities that allow it to overcome almost every other unit, even those which should normally beat it, when those abilities are micro-managed 100% vs the other unit just doing its thing automatically.
 

fanboi

Banned
Adent said:
I read that thread yesterday and it's very exclusionary. Just look at this.

Putting someone like Dustin Browder in charge of development for SC2 though, is almost like letting one of the many overly-enthuasiastic-and-overly-optimistic TL forum resident D- noobs have the last say about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game. Sure those crazy (slightly delusional) threads about the viability of some obscure unit or strategy can be fun to read from time to time. But in the end it's always reassuring to have that old veteran come in, one of those fountains of cynicism, to tell you what will work and what won't. What's realistic and what's not. Where your focus should rather lie instead of wasting your time with things might be awesome but don't work in reality. I feel that Blizzard desperately needed but lacked one of those voices in the development of SC2. The passion is there no doubt, but there needs to be a voice of reason behind it all.

Basically the pros are the old vets and everyone else are D-noobs, including Dusting Browder. That lack of respect for both the casual player and the developer is just disgusting. I'm going to have trust that Blizzard knows more about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game because they've made one before.


Totally agree!
 

Des0lar

will learn eventually
I agree to some extent, as being able to micro flying units quickly in and out of combat, doing high damage burst attacks was great in Starcraft 1, but things like using the patrol command to do 90° attacks is just bug abusing, that never got fixed because the players just stuck with it.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Adent said:
Basically the pros are the old vets and everyone else are D-noobs, including Dusting Browder. That lack of respect for both the casual player and the developer is just disgusting. I'm going to have trust that Blizzard knows more about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game because they've made one before.

Yeah, even if he's making a valid point, he's being incredibly condescending making it. Anybody who even knows what iCCup is probably isn't a real noob. I also had a laugh when he referred to "100-apm noobs". And then he went on to suggest that somehow all the various incarnations of moving shot were an intended mechanic in the engine and that Dustin Browder didn't care about the engine.

Look, if you're concerned that Starcraft 2 doesn't have an infinite skill ceiling anymore, that's fine. But being condescending to everybody who's below you skill-wise isn't going to win you much support.
 

elbkhm

Member
NovemberMike said:
How do you beat a Marauder/Marine/Ghost stim timing push as protoss? It's before you can reasonably get Colossi and pretty much everything from gateway and robo dies to stimmed marauders after the emp goes off.
I played about 20 TvP (silver, gold, and a few plat) games over the weekend, and went M&M&G timing push in every one. The only thing that really gave me any trouble were Sentries. If they build 2-4 sentries, and keep them in the back (away from the ghosts EMP), they could use force field to cut my army in half on the ramp, throw up that defensive shield, and mop up my troops with zealots and stalkers.
 

Cru Jones

Member
ahoyhoy said:
Indeed. My first complaint would be the lack of proper defensive strategies. It's very difficult to defend yourself against a decent sized attack with the early resources provided for you. Even if "pro" players disagree, turtling and teching should always be a viable strategy.

I disagree, there is a risk/reward in trying to tech early. If you can pull it off, you are way ahead of your opponent, but if they attack you should be in a vulnerable position for turtling and teching.
 

Cru Jones

Member
elbkhm said:
I played about 20 TvP (silver, gold, and a few plat) games over the weekend, and went M&M&G timing push in every one. The only thing that really gave me any trouble were Sentries. If they build 2-4 sentries, and keep them in the back (away from the ghosts EMP), they could use force field to cut my army in half on the ramp, throw up that defensive shield, and mop up my troops with zealots and stalkers.

You have to be very good to block a large ramp with 2-4 sentries. A small ramp you could definitely pull that off.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
ZealousD said:
Yeah, even if he's making a valid point, he's being incredibly condescending making it. Anybody who even knows what iCCup is probably isn't a real noob. I also had a laugh when he referred to "100-apm noobs". And then he went on to suggest that somehow all the various incarnations of moving shot were an intended mechanic in the engine and that Dustin Browder didn't care about the engine.

Look, if you're concerned that Starcraft 2 doesn't have an infinite skill ceiling anymore, that's fine. But being condescending to everybody who's below you skill-wise isn't going to win you much support.

I totally agree. The guy comes off as an asshole, and he probably is an asshole, but I still think there is merit to what he is saying. It's too bad his post had to be filled with such vitriol and contempt that most people will probably focus on his arrogance than his actual arguments.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
zoukka said:
lol @ Starcraft nerds thinking they can design games.

Hell yeah! Fuck discussing game mechanics! Fuck providing feedback! Fuck complaining about anything! Just go with the flow and take what you get.
 

Interfectum

Member
if anyone thinks they can make a better game than starcraft 2 well... there is a map editor included powerful enough to recreate SC2. So have at it all you wannabe game designers. :lol
 
Interfectum said:
if anyone thinks they can make a better game than starcraft 2 well... there is a map editor included powerful enough to recreate SC2. So have at it all you wannabe game designers. :lol
Pretty much. I like how in Halo 3 there is an MLG playlist that features MLG-created maps and gametypes. Something similar will probably arise in SCII.
 

Zen

Banned
I wonder if you can tweak unit animation times etc. I mean the complaint is about something very technical within the engine.
 
Interfectum said:
if anyone thinks they can make a better game than starcraft 2 well... there is a map editor included powerful enough to recreate SC2. So have at it all you wannabe game designers. :lol
I don't think anyone thinks that, I think they want the game to be as good as it can be, and some of us feel it isn't yet. But if we submit our constructive feedback, if we're right, some of our suggestions will get worked in. That said, that other guy was not very nice with some of his comments but his overall idea has some credibility to it.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Zen said:
I wonder if you can tweak unit animation times etc. I mean the complaint is about something very technical within the engine.

Most likely not.

zoukka said:
Chill the fuck out.

I'm perfectly "chill". I just hate it when people post stupid shit and effectively say that discussion about video game mechanics should not be taking place... on a video game forum.

Interfectum said:
if anyone thinks they can make a better game than starcraft 2 well... there is a map editor included powerful enough to recreate SC2. So have at it all you wannabe game designers. :lol

Jesus christ, who said they thought they could make a better game? Everyone just wants the game to be awesome and even better than the original Starcraft. Since when was providing feedback and discussing opinions on game design such a heinous thing?
 

zoukka

Member
Just played a nice mirror zerg match. Really made me realise that you shouldn't give up too early. Got spine rushed and by the time my spine was ready almost all my workers were dead for fighting lings off. Luckily my first scouting drone was alive in my opponents base and I saw no units at all and a roach warren going up.

I immediately ecoed to healthy levels and spammed lings like there's no tomorrow. Just as he walks into my base with roaches I zoom past them with a massive river of speedlings, overwhelm his base and force him to return with his roaches.

After this we both teched to mutas, but I had expanded earlier so I won with more mutas than him.

I'm perfectly "chill". I just hate it when people post stupid shit and effectively say that discussion about video game mechanics should not be taking place... on a video game forum.

I just despised his elitist attidude. Nothing more.
 
Read the whole Micro article.

I don't use micro a whole bunch (though I do), I completely agree that they should have added this dynamic into the game. Watching the pros do it and some fail at it under pressure is what made the clutch plays so clutch. Without this, I fear it won't have the same impact the first had.
 

Interfectum

Member
Zefah said:
Jesus christ, who said they thought they could make a better game? Everyone just wants the game to be awesome and even better than the original Starcraft. Since when was providing feedback and discussing opinions on game design such a heinous thing?

When the feedback is smug in tone it's best to ignore it.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Interfectum said:
When the feedback is smug in tone it's best to ignore it.

Why? Sure the guy sounds like an asshole, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about? I totally agree that if you want to make an argument that people will listen to then you should be direct and to the point and avoid sounding condescending, but that doesn't mean assholes don't have anything worthwhile to say.
 
Interfectum said:
When the feedback is smug in tone it's best to ignore it.

Interfectum said:
if anyone thinks they can make a better game than starcraft 2 well... there is a map editor included powerful enough to recreate SC2. So have at it all you wannabe game designers. :lol
That sounds like a smug reaction with SC2 the way it is, and someone who's unwilling to listen to suggestions (beta is for feedback).

I don't think the guy did it right, but you're one to point fingers my friend.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Major Williams said:
Read the whole Micro article.

I don't use micro a whole bunch (though I do), I completely agree that they should have added this dynamic into the game. Watching the pros do it and some fail at it under pressure is what made the clutch plays so clutch. Without this, I fear it won't have the same impact the first had.
I feel the same way. I want more ways to improve and be in awe.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hdstarcraft

Really really good game of Artossis vs TheLittleOne (PvZ) [Just finished]
 
Major Williams said:
Read the whole Micro article.

I don't use micro a whole bunch (though I do), I completely agree that they should have added this dynamic into the game. Watching the pros do it and some fail at it under pressure is what made the clutch plays so clutch. Without this, I fear it won't have the same impact the first had.
detailz, plz. site is blocked at my work.
 
The Lamonster said:
detailz, plz. site is blocked at my work.
Only the Conclusion said:
The solution is pretty obvious. Shorten the attack animations and make units dance again. If Starcraft II’s game engine really is as awesome as Dustin Browder has said it is – on multiple occasions. If it really “can do anything”. Then why is it that not a single unit in the game ended up with a shorter firing animation than the time it takes them to decelerate? Was it really all because of balance, Blizzard?

What good is a “terribly awesome engine that can do [almost] anything”, if it can’t achieve a moving shot?

I personally suspect that Starcraft 2 was coded in a way that has prevented Blizzard from implementing moving shot. Perhaps the engine is too awesome to allow it. Perhaps it emulates Newtonian Physics too well for moving shot to exist. While I was trying it out, the main difference I noticed was that in SC1 you had to direct your units towards the enemy you were attacking. After the attack animation was done you could control your units in any direction you wanted. In SC2, your air unit will simply glide in whatever direction it was gliding before you issued the attack command and turn around its axis to aim towards the enemy. It’s not realistic at all if you think about real life air to air combat. But in Blizzard’s awesome engine, a body in motion will stay in motion unless… it exceeds its deceleration timer?

I don’t want to be too harsh on Dustin Browder and Blizzard. Because I think Starcraft II is a decent game after all. But somewhere along the way it feels like they missed the entire point of what makes up for a great RTS game. They forgot that the most crucial ingredients to a game is not how cool and awesome its units are, but how it feels when you play it. That inexplicable feeling that the game grants you total control of your actions. Playing Brood War it felt like – given enough time and practice – you could achieve anything!

Putting someone like Dustin Browder in charge of development for SC2 though, is almost like letting one of the many overly-enthuasiastic-and-overly-optimistic TL forum resident D- noobs have the last say about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game. Sure those crazy (slightly delusional) threads about the viability of some obscure unit or strategy can be fun to read from time to time. But in the end it's always reassuring to have that old veteran come in, one of those fountains of cynicism, to tell you what will work and what won't. What's realistic and what's not. Where your focus should rather lie instead of wasting your time with things might be awesome but don't work in reality. I feel that Blizzard desperately needed but lacked one of those voices in the development of SC2. The passion is there no doubt, but there needs to be a voice of reason behind it all.

I am a bit worried that everyone suddenly stopped questioning Dustin Browder and Blizzard after the Starcraft II Beta was released. How come we all settled for less, when what we should have been doing – if anything – was asking for at least as much as we had before? No chat rooms, no ability to switch in between servers, no LAN support, no whisper functionality, no DND, unlimited unit selection, rally point to minerals, MBS, no moving shot; the list goes on and on. One compromise after the other.

I’m not saying every change was unwarranted, or that every change was for the worse. Most of us can by now agree on the fact that MBS and unlimited unit selection turned out to be pretty good changes. But the fact of the matter is: we’re constantly settling for less and less without even putting up a real fight.

It disgusts me that every time I see someone on these forums bash down on a flaw in the game, all he’s ever met with is the same generic response: “Yes but Starcraft II is a different game, ’other’ types of micro/whatever might show up in the future as it develops and evolves”.

Who knows, those arguments might hold true, although I personally doubt they will. We’re entirely missing the point arguing in such a way though. Why in the first place should we be accepting that Starcraft II is regressing in to a more primitive form than its predecessor? Isn’t this, after all, the sequel, as opposed to the prequel?

How does Dustin Browder explain the fact that air units in SC2, the sequel, suddenly regressed and lost their ability to maneuver while firing? Is there perhaps a disturbance in the Khala?

Start demanding more out of Blizzard! I implore you all not to settle for less than you deserve. Let’s at least demand that Blizzard put the micro back in a game that was already robbed of its macro!


There you go :)
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Oh and anyone making maps look at the TL.net thread here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121280&currentpage=12

A lot of maps coming out from people and I'm sure they can help you with whatever you are doing.

2ljrehx.jpg
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
hobart said:
Orb took one from Idra? That's all he needed... hahahahaha.

BTW... Ustream > Livestream. Livestream is a fucking mess.
it was a cheesy zealot rush I guess but it caused Idra to BM and not gg lol.

Was funny
 
Hazaro said:
I feel the same way. I want more ways to improve and be in awe.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hdstarcraft

Really really good game of Artossis vs TheLittleOne (PvZ) [Just finished]
Let's face it... even though it wasn't designed to be that way, watching the pros do glitches in Halo 1 & 2 was miles more fun than watching a Pro Halo 3 match. Being aware of the situations and the glitches and how to counter them added depth and such rapid finger movement/reflexes that normal couch-gamers like myself simply couldn't pull off.

Halo 3 simply became a match of hand-eye coordination and reflexes. Granted, they have it at levels we normal peeps don't have, but they played the same game we did. With the 'glitches' and button combos that became standard gameplay (micro abilities in Starcraft), we can see the BEYOND awesome level the game can achieve.

Just my opinion and 2 cents.
 

scoobs

Member
TheLittleOne is a dynamic dazzler! I love his strategies, that double gateway at the expansion plus at the rocks... genius i say.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Major Williams said:
Let's face it... even though it wasn't designed to be that way, watching the pros do glitches in Halo 1 & 2 was miles more fun than watching a Pro Halo 3 match. Being aware of the situations and the glitches and how to counter them added depth and such rapid finger movement/reflexes that normal couch-gamers like myself simply couldn't pull off.

Halo 3 simply became a match of hand-eye coordination and reflexes. Granted, they have it at levels we normal peeps don't have, but they played the same game we did. With the 'glitches' and button combos that became standard gameplay (micro abilities in Starcraft), we can see the BEYOND awesome level the game can achieve.

Just my opinion and 2 cents.

Maybe the pros are just lazy and don't want to learn new glitches w/ SC2, they just want their old glitches spoon fed back to them.
 

zoukka

Member
Yeah I don't understand why people want SCII to be SC.

The stalker micro vid from ages ago alone was more dope than any micro I've seen in BW :b
 

raphier

Banned
zoukka said:
Yeah I don't understand why people want SCII to be SC.

The stalker micro vid from ages ago alone was more dope than any micro I've seen in BW :b
For same reason why people want tetris be tetris, or Halo a Halo game. Some things should stick to stay what they are, not the other way around. Sequel should add stuff, yes, but not to the point it's not what it is anymore.
 

Interfectum

Member
I’m not saying every change was unwarranted, or that every change was for the worse. Most of us can by now agree on the fact that MBS and unlimited unit selection turned out to be pretty good changes. But the fact of the matter is: we’re constantly settling for less and less without even putting up a real fight.
:lol

So because Blizzard is changing / refining things for Starcraft 2, even if some of the changes are for the better we should be fighting against any and all change Blizzard makes from Starcraft 1.


:lol
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
zoukka said:
Yeah I don't understand why people want SCII to be SC.

The stalker micro vid from ages ago alone was more dope than any micro I've seen in BW :b
no one loves changes!

Im curious once retail comes out though if people can create SC1 type game sets
 

Interfectum

Member
raphier said:
For same reason why people want tetris be tetris, or Halo a Halo game. Some things should stick to stay what they are, not the other way around. Sequel should add stuff, yes, but not to the point it's not what it is anymore.

If you are talking about a change from Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory -> Splinter Cell: Conviction, then yes your point stands.

The changes from SC1 -> SC2 are so minimal that to nitpick it to that level, even to the point of all out insulting the developer, is not constructive at all.
 

coamithra

Member
Zen said:
Can you go into more detail?
Some choice quotes:

article said:
Starcraft had a one size fits all damage system. Now how the hell did Blizzard balance it despite not being able to give units arbitrary bonus damage values towards specific armor types?
Starcraft had multiple damage and unit types that interacted differently.

article said:
Putting someone like Dustin Browder in charge of development for SC2 though, is almost like letting one of the many overly-enthuasiastic-and-overly-optimistic TL forum resident D- noobs have the last say about what is good and bad for a multi million dollar game
Personal attack instead of argument

article said:
How come we all settled for less, when what we should have been doing – if anything – was asking for at least as much as we had before? No chat rooms, no ability to switch in between servers, no LAN support, no whisper functionality, no DND, unlimited unit selection, rally point to minerals, MBS (multiple building selection -ed), no moving shot; the list goes on and on. One compromise after the other
WHAT?! (emphasis mine)

article said:
Starcraft 2 is a game where one’s strategic choices make up for more than one’s individual skill. Somewhere all of us get the feeling that the build orders we choose are of greater importance than the way we micro. That the number of units we produce is of greater significance than the way we control them. Frankly put: that Starcraft 2 requires less skill
Even if his claims are true, since when is a shift from micro toward macro/strategy "less skill"?
 

Lothars

Member
Minsc said:
Maybe the pros are just lazy and don't want to learn new glitches w/ SC2, they just want their old glitches spoon fed back to them.

I think that's exactly what it is, the game might not be perfect but I think it's alot of complaining because the game isn't exactly like SC1.
 

Lothars

Member
raphier said:
For same reason why people want tetris be tetris, or Halo a Halo game. Some things should stick to stay what they are, not the other way around. Sequel should add stuff, yes, but not to the point it's not what it is anymore.

Yeah and that's what SC2 did, it's added stuff but it's not a huge change from SC1.
 

webrunner

Member
There's two kinds of pros:

Pros who recognize that it's how everything works together and how they use this knowledge that matters.

And pros that think that interface changes which make it easier for non pros is somehow encroaching on their territories, making everyone a pro.

Things like MBS, these are just tools. Cheap hammers don't make everyone a carpenter, but it sure makes it less of a pain to drive in nails.
 
coamithra said:
Some choice quotes:

unlimited unit selection, rally point to minerals, MBS (multiple building selection -ed)

WHAT?! (emphasis mine)

This is where it strikes me that he wants an exact clone of starcraft 1 with updated graphics. To not include simple things like these that could be considered a standard for RTS games these days would completely baffle me.

EDIT: ^^ Well said webrunner
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Starcraft had multiple damage and unit types that interacted differently.
Sure did. Don't know why he said this.
Even if his claims are true, since when is a shift from micro toward macro/strategy "less skill"?
StarCraft is about strategy but there is no reason micro cannot be a part of it. It opens up more ways to play the game and has been one of the major forces that drove players to get better.

Wraith micro, vulture micro, and MUTALISK micro were all things players were able to get better and better at after they 'mastered' the build orders and counters.
You can only get so good at following a build order and strategy (Hence why pros get suspicious if a build is a few seconds delayed) but unit control has nearly no limitations.

I'm very grateful for MBS and automine as it RAISES the bottom skill level (See: me + a ton of others), but things like removal of move/shoot LOWERS the skill ceiling that players can reach.
The Lamonster said:
what's DND?
Do Not Disturb - Blocks incoming chat/whispers.

Useful for many players. Especially if certain people are getting 10 whispers a minute or getting/leaking info to the other player / someone who is streaming / live matches.

*Amazon.de
Looks like pre-order keys here. Dunno when .co.uk will get them.
 
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