• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)

Bisonian

Member
Aesthet1c said:
Anybody have any advice for a Zerg noob? I'm failing pretty badly...

My current strat is 13 pool, 15 hatch, gas, roach, lair. From there I'll work on massing hydra's and muta's. I'm doing pretty decent at scouting their expansions and knocking them out.. but it seems like any time our forces meet, no matter how many hydra's or muta's I have, I get demolished. I must be doing something wrong...

Some tips from a fellow hydralisk... some stream of consciousness is coming so bear with me a bit.

I used to use a similar build to what you have above but have found towards higher levels of play it can be a little slow. I primarily play 2v2, so you may have better success in 1v1 with it, but either way I'd be ready with a sunken or two and good queen micro to hold off early rushes.

The biggest fear always, the thing I find myself most afraid of as zerg, are air rushes. If you are not tier 2 (Lair), then you really just don't have anti-air. If you are financially surging then you can line your hatches with spore colonies but you will still be harassed and giving up map control for that. Instead, if I even suspect that an opponent is rushing air I will immediately jump to tier 2. It's always better to get that upgrade sooner, rather then later.

vs Terran the biggest worries I've seen are the early banshee rush, and the marine/marauder/medivac ball o' death. The banshee rush we've sort of already addressed above (and is honestly not terrible to prevent if you are mindful of it), but for everything else in the terran game you are going to have to use banelings or infestors (another unit that is traditionally challenging for zerg to use, but is very powerful).

Banelings not only eat through small bio units (marine mix, zealots to a degree, and holy cow they kill X numbers of lings... you fill in the X), but they are also great at busting through a terran wall in. Throw 5 banelings into the supply depot and run in your speedlings. I've had wonderful success rushing to that and attacking into a terran base that way.

vs Protoss you have an easier fight (IMO), but you must take advantage early and continue to push it. If you cut the hatchery out of the build you mentioned above, you can wind up with 7-8 roaches before the 5 minute mark (when the first 4 roaches from queen spawn pop). This is an extremely strong push into a protoss base, I've found. Great force field play from a sentry can make it difficult but you will traditionally do pretty well and knock the protoss on the defensive. Ideally they will switch to immortals and you will switch to mutalisks and continue to control the map and be aggressive. Always try to think one move ahead (ie- he will go immortals, and thus I should make mutalisks NOW.) If you let a protoss sit and macro/tech though you will lose a lot of the time. Stalker/Colossus/HT are pretty much a losing situation for zerg i've found.

All that aside though, the best tip I can give for new SC players is to a) play a lot of 1v1 obviously, and b) practice your macro game. I constantly tell my 2v2 partner that the best counter for pretty much everything is 150-200 food worth of units. You will win a lot at the lower-mid levels practicing map control and your macro game. Have a queen for each hatchery, continually spawn larva, continually use every larva you can, make sure you are always spending your minerals, lay down additional hatcheries if you just can't spend it fast enough... build, build, build. You are the swarm after all.

Any more specific questions let me know, otherwise hope it helps.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Bisonian said:
. You will win a lot at the lower-mid levels practicing map control and your macro game. Have a queen for each hatchery, continually spawn larva, continually use every larva you can, make sure you are always spending your minerals, lay down additional hatcheries if you just can't spend it fast enough... build, build, build. You are the swarm after all.


And that right there is one of my biggest problems. I watched a replay of a game I lost the other night vs a terran, his MMM ball overran me, but what surprised me was that I had 800+ minerals in the bank when he made his last push. I was pumping out units as fast as my larvae would allow, but with that much of an econ advantage I really should have had another hive, or at least a few tentacles set up at my front. My macro needs work, and it’s probably why I am still in the copper league.
 

Bisonian

Member
Mengy said:
And that right there is one of my biggest problems. I watched a replay of a game I lost the other night vs a terran, his MMM ball overran me, but what surprised me was that I had 800+ minerals in the bank when he made his last push. I was pumping out units as fast as my larvae would allow, but with that much of an econ advantage I really should have had another hive, or at least a few tentacles set up at my front. My macro needs work, and it’s probably why I am still in the copper league.

Thankfully the replay system is great for looking into this. When I get run over I try to go back and look at the numbers of when the fight takes place. Compare your food and your army's economical worth and see what it looks like. Micro and proper unit counters absolutely have a spot to play in the SC2 world, but (at least right now in the game's infancy) it's just not going to make up a 30-50 food difference most of the time.

In late game, lets say I have my main and 2 expansions, one at my natural. I will have a queen at each expansion, hotkeyed (Ctrl+#) to 4, 5, and 6. Get in the habit of double clicking each of those buttons in line and spitting larva on that hatchery. If you do them all at the same time they'll pop at the same time, and it's an easy cycle to get into the habit of.

I'll then find I can usually support a few more hatches at my natural, then I'll set a control group (like 7) for the 3 hatches there + my main. Unit rally point to your front and you've got a powerful macro setup. Even while you are doing something else (harassing, fighting, scouting, whatever), you can continually click 7 (4 hatches), S (elect larva) and have a list of about 12-18 larva at your disposal. Bang the H(ydralisk) button until you run out of gas, and bang the Z(ergling) button to fill the rest.... or whatever you happen to be massing. Just build things. Mass. Mass. Mass.
 

Strampas

Neo Member
Got my beta-key a couple of days ago. I've only played 5 matches so far and man, do i suck balls. Still awesome game. Hope to improve some and become a pro someday.
 

Bisonian

Member
Calantus said:
i love when banelings chases a group of my marines. Kite one marine out of the group and the banelings all blow up on him.

And things like this are why it took me so long to try banelings. They are VERY easy to screw up using. It's hard to determine at first how many banelings you need to attack a group. If you don't have enough, they'll never make it to the target. Definitely a micro-intensive unit, and definitely vulnerable to baiting tactics as you describe here. They just don't feel like they are effective a lot of the time.

Once you get the hang of them though they are an incredibly powerful tool in your arsenal, especially in early game. The risk/reward is very high on them, and I like that and wish SC2 had more of those types of units.
 

Yaweee

Member
Aesthet1c said:
This is a dumb question... but if a baneling explodes, does it hurt my own units or cause other nearby banelings to explode?

No and no. So run some Zerglings in slightly ahead and follow with banelings. Or, burrow them and then unburrow them as the MMM ball passes overhead.
 
Strampas said:
Got my beta-key a couple of days ago. I've only played 5 matches so far and man, do i suck balls. Still awesome game. Hope to improve some and become a pro someday.
the beta is filled with sc1 pros but the retail version will have a bigger potion of new players who are as bad as you are :p
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Ok I haven't been following the thread in a few weeks. Did they release the OSX beta client yet? If not, any word on when it is coming?
 

diss

Banned
maniac-kun said:
the beta is filled with sc1 pros but the retail version will have a bigger potion of new players who are as bad as you are :p
Maybe it's just the practice and placement rounds talking but 95% of the people I play against don't know what they're doing. It's great! Because neither do I, but what I do know is enough to get me the win. That said, now I can't wait to get the shit kicked out of me in league games!
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Hari Seldon said:
Ok I haven't been following the thread in a few weeks. Did they release the OSX beta client yet? If not, any word on when it is coming?

It's been released, but people have said it runs at half the frame rate as they get using the windows client under boot camp, so they've got some work to do w/ it.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Minsc said:
It's been released, but people have said it runs at half the frame rate as they get using the windows client under boot camp, so they've got some work to do w/ it.

Oh that sucks. Was going to buy a new macbook pro this weekend, so I'll give it a shot.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
diss said:
Maybe it's just the practice and placement rounds talking but 95% of the people I play against don't know what they're doing. It's great! Because neither do I, but what I do know is enough to get me the win. That said, now I can't wait to get the shit kicked out of me in league games!


You know I've had the opposite experience, even down in the copper league. The majority of people I've played do have a good idea of how to play, much more so than I expected in copper to be honest. In fact, I've had a few games where my opponent played a brilliant game and absolutely took me to the fence. Although, I am playing against alot of bronze players and even the occasionaly silver, so that may by why.

The copper league hasn't been anything near the newb fest I expected.

I amost wonder if some gold and plat players have been losing games on purpose just to stomp on copper players for fun...
 

Shambles

Member
Just was about to cancel with Amazon when I got my key. Shambles.shambles (I'm pretty sure), anyone on right now looking to get some unranked practice in?
 

Ferrio

Banned
So yesterday I was doing 2v2 with a friend. We got through our duo placement matches and said we ranked gold. When I went back to the battle screen, it said I had 5 placement matches with him again. Anyone else have this happen?
 

Aesthet1c

Member
Ferrio said:
So yesterday I was doing 2v2 with a friend. We got through our duo placement matches and said we ranked gold. When I went back to the battle screen, it said I had 5 placement matches with him again. Anyone else have this happen?

You're sure it's 5 placement matches with him? Or 5 placement matches for you? I did 2 placement matches with my brother and later that day I logged in to see I had 5 placement matches to go. It wasn't until later that I realized my personal 2v2 matches are seperate than my brother and I's placement matches. Once I partied up with him, it went back to normal with 3 placement matches to go.

BTW thanks everyone for the Zerg help... Hopefully it will help get me out of my 1v1 bronze or 2v2 copper leagues. :lol
 

Bisonian

Member
Yaweee said:
No and no. So run some Zerglings in slightly ahead and follow with banelings. Or, burrow them and then unburrow them as the MMM ball passes overhead.

Tip that came up earlier in this thread actually...

You don't have to unburrow them. You can explode them while they remain burrowed. I've seen MM packs charge up a ramp and get decimated by 3 banelings they never saw in (detector-free) complete safety. Just click on the units and hit X (the hotkey for manual explode). It's like having landmines at your disposal.
 

Meeru

Banned
Ferrio said:
So yesterday I was doing 2v2 with a friend. We got through our duo placement matches and said we ranked gold. When I went back to the battle screen, it said I had 5 placement matches with him again. Anyone else have this happen?
Yes my 1v1 is like that
 

mcrae

Member
Aesthet1c said:
Anybody have any advice for a Zerg noob? I'm failing pretty badly...

My current strat is 13 pool, 15 hatch, gas, roach, lair. From there I'll work on massing hydra's and muta's. I'm doing pretty decent at scouting their expansions and knocking them out.. but it seems like any time our forces meet, no matter how many hydra's or muta's I have, I get demolished. I must be doing something wrong...

i havent crunched the numbers, but i only play zerg too, and..

imo, mutas are only god for harrassing. taking out probe lines, quick surgical pylon strikes, and the like. someone in this thread stated earlier that on a pure cost to damage output ratio, mutas are the worst in the game, and i'd believe that.

hydras are GREAT if your opponent is going for air and ground, but if he is going only ground, i would add lings, and roaches. lings attack the army at the front with their range of 1, roaches attack from closer with range of 3, and hydras sit back and snipe kills with their range of 6. hydras are more expensive than roaches, and roaches have more health, so they are a nice meatshield for hydras. zerglings dont cost any gas, so they work as a shield for the roaches, when you have no gas.

if your opponent is going air, dont go mutas. go corrupters. this also lets you tech into broodlords nicely, and just 2-3 broodlords supporting your hydra/roach/possibly zergling army can turn the tide of many battles. not only do they do lots of damage, but if you are fighting an army with lower range than your hydras, the constantly respawning broodlings can keep that army from getting within their range, to kill your hydras.

pretty much any zerg army needs to be a mixed one. also, because corrupters are slow, you're gonna want to be constantly aware of where the enemy's air force is, do this by constantly checking expos with your 5-6 mutas that you should probably always have (talking mid to late game of course) and of course, always have a zergling at the watchtowers.
 

LaneDS

Member
Bisonian said:
Tip that came up earlier in this thread actually...

You don't have to unburrow them. You can explode them while they remain burrowed. I've seen MM packs charge up a ramp and get decimated by 3 banelings they never saw in (detector-free) complete safety. Just click on the units and hit X (the hotkey for manual explode). It's like having landmines at your disposal.

That is awesome and I wish to see marines explode in such a fashion this weekend.
 

mcrae

Member
Mengy said:
I’ve been playing zerg exclusively for a few days now, and I’m having similar problems. When it comes to the mid game I almost always get overpowered, especially by protoss and void rays. The biggest counter I’ve found to void rays are hydras, but you need a shit ton of em to compete with them. If you don’t have enough, you are toast. Which, is how I’ve lost more than a few games.

One thing I’ve come to realize about the zerg: you need to expand like a mofo. You almost need to have at least two more hives above whatever your opponent has to keep up. Having all of your units come from larvae is a double edged sword, especially when you are trying to get drones and overlords out as well. I may actually start putting two hives in my main just to get more larvae in play.

if you're making proper use of queens (one at each base) then this shouldnt be necessary. in some casees, like on twilight fortress, i like having a third hatchery once i have two bases set up, but on most maps armies dont get to the 200/200 size and it is minerals that could be better spent elsewhere
 

Yaweee

Member
Are there any good sites for DLs of replays or videos aside from HDStarcraft's Youtube page? I got to the top of my gold division, but now I'm on a massive losing streak. There's too many matchups that I just don't understand, and TeamLiquid's forums are all over the place in advice.

My biggest problem is probably PvP. Just lost three in a row to that, but I also have huge problems against Reaper rushes and the following Marauders (basically, having to do a build order safe against a 7rax Reaper seems like it sacrifices too much of my economy.
 

Shambles

Member
Got in this morning. Played 2 FFA matches, won both pretty easily as Terran. Had one protoss player going mass void rays which did some damage but after they were gone he was left wide open.

Played 2 placement matches after vs Z/P. Won the first one pretty easily and the 2nd one I finally saw some challenge. Going my usual MMM I was building up my force when he attacked my main and warped in some zealots at the back of my base at the same time. Caused a fair bit of damage in the chaos but I sent my ball out right after that and got the GG.
 

mcrae

Member
Yaweee said:
Are there any good sites for DLs of replays or videos aside from HDStarcraft's Youtube page? I got to the top of my gold division, but now I'm on a massive losing streak. There's too many matchups that I just don't understand, and TeamLiquid's forums are all over the place in advice.

My biggest problem is probably PvP. Just lost three in a row to that, but I also have huge problems against Reaper rushes and the following Marauders (basically, having to do a build order safe against a 7rax Reaper seems like it sacrifices too much of my economy.

theres http://www.sc2rc.com/
 

mbmonk

Member
Yaweee said:
Are there any good sites for DLs of replays or videos aside from HDStarcraft's Youtube page? I got to the top of my gold division, but now I'm on a massive losing streak. There's too many matchups that I just don't understand, and TeamLiquid's forums are all over the place in advice.

My biggest problem is probably PvP. Just lost three in a row to that, but I also have huge problems against Reaper rushes and the following Marauders (basically, having to do a build order safe against a 7rax Reaper seems like it sacrifices too much of my economy.

Depends on what you mean by replays. If you mean Videos + Commentary you can check out Husky's youtube channel and Day9 dailys.
1) The HDH invitational has some amazing players. His youtube page is located here: http://www.youtube.com/user/HuskyStarcraft

2) Day 9 Daily located here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154

If you are looking for actual replays w/o commentary that you load up in SC2. Which you can review yourself and really get details on build orders ect.
1) Then try SC2Win. Look for high level Protoss players. WhiteRa is one protoss player I know is awesome here is a PvP match replay: http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/pvp/whitera-vs-liquidnazgul-1/

2) Nony put up replay packs of him using the Pheonix located here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=121441


Hope that helps.
 

winnarps

Member
Yaweee said:
Are there any good sites for DLs of replays or videos aside from HDStarcraft's Youtube page? I got to the top of my gold division, but now I'm on a massive losing streak. There's too many matchups that I just don't understand, and TeamLiquid's forums are all over the place in advice.

My biggest problem is probably PvP. Just lost three in a row to that, but I also have huge problems against Reaper rushes and the following Marauders (basically, having to do a build order safe against a 7rax Reaper seems like it sacrifices too much of my economy.


Apparently there's a known build order that almost guarantees a win for the Terran player in a TvP matchup.

Reaper Bunker Proxy or something like that. Haven't seen it used in game yet, as I'm primarily Zerg.
 

Exhumed

Member
winnarps said:
Apparently there's a known build order that almost guarantees a win for the Terran player in a TvP matchup.

Reaper Bunker Proxy or something like that. Haven't seen it used in game yet, as I'm primarily Zerg.

I dont doubt this actually. I had a player reaper harass before I got a zealot out. Once I did, he managed to kite 2 of them and kill them both. The only reason I held it off is he stopped microing and the reaper fell....
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Yeah 6 racks proxy reaper is pretty unbeatable against Protoss right now. I really think they need to make the engineering bay a requirement for the unit, then reduce the build time to make it them more worthwhile in the mid game.
 
winnarps said:
Apparently there's a known build order that almost guarantees a win for the Terran player in a TvP matchup.

Reaper Bunker Proxy or something like that. Haven't seen it used in game yet, as I'm primarily Zerg.
Check it out in action, this may be one of the only replays where it's actually beaten, and extremely narrowly beaten may I add, it's a pretty sick game too, def recommended viewing

http://himan.pl/index.php?a=details&id=352

edit* It's not reaper, its marad rush
 
So I've surprisingly been playing more 2v2 then 1v1 lately, even progressed to number 2 in my plat division, hmm :p

Let me just say this though, protoss players, just because you CAN make void rays, doesn't mean you HAVE to make them, also please, please, please have a ground army before you start teching straight up to them in a 2v2 game which inherently is very rush heavy!

That is all.
 

Yaweee

Member
ZealousD said:
Yeah 6 racks proxy reaper is pretty unbeatable against Protoss right now. I really think they need to make the engineering bay a requirement for the unit, then reduce the build time to make it them more worthwhile in the mid game.

Yeah, it is broken. Zealots are just outright useless against early Terran (Marauders and Reapers can kite them infinitely for the kill without taking any damage at all with rudimentary micro), and you need to rush to a Cybernetics Core and then pump out a stalker to have any chance of stopping a single reaper, at all. Then Marauders still manage to beat Stalkers cost for cost.
 
Yaweee said:
Yeah, it is broken. Zealots are just outright useless against early Terran (Marauders and Reapers can kite them infinitely for the kill without taking any damage at all with rudimentary micro), and you need to rush to a Cybernetics Core and then pump out a stalker to have any chance of stopping a single reaper, at all. Then Marauders still manage to beat Stalkers cost for cost.

Actually, Marauders beat Stalkers unit for unit, not cost for cost (marauders are cheaper and win).
 

Yaweee

Member
And because I thumbs down the maps that Terran can nearly auto-win on, I'm left playing ProtossVsProtossCraft2, where 7 of the last 8 games have been against Protoss opponents.
 

Ferrio

Banned
Wow I read about that bunker proxy shit... that's broken as hell. They should really make reapers's jet pack a researchable ability.
 

NeoUltima

Member
I really feel, at least in this version, that the terran are clearly the strongest race... marauders are unstoppable. Playing protoss, seems like there is no way to stop a marauder rush. Zealots can't do shit, especially when the marauders get their slow ability they can just fire, back off, fire back off...and the zealots can never get a hit. And stalkers of course suck. Survive the rush and try to build air to stop them? Terran will build vikings. Don't even bother building phoenixes to counter the vikings cause vikings tear them apart, even though they cost the same amount.
Seems like the only chance is to try to tech to robotics and start pumping out immortals.

edit: o I see people above me discussing/noticing the same exact thing :lol

edit2: its a beta of course, i'm not exactly complaining
 
NeoUltima said:
I really feel, at least in this version, that the terran are clearly the strongest race... marauders are unstoppable. Playing protoss, seems like there is no way to stop a marauder rush. Zealots can't do shit, especially when the marauders get their slow ability they can just fire, back off, fire back off...and the zealots can never get a hit. And stalkers of course suck. Survive the rush and try to build air to stop them? Terran will build vikings. Don't even bother building phoenixes to counter the vikings cause vikings tear them apart, even though they cost the same amount.
Seems like the only chance is to try to tech to robotics and start pumping out immortals.

edit: o I see people above me discussing/noticing the same exact thing :lol

Actually, terran is probably the weakest race, they just have the strongest openings. Protoss can do things like have 1 probe set up an entire expo with expansions, Zerg is the only race that can reasonably fast expand.
 

Yaweee

Member
NeoUltima said:
I really feel, at least in this version, that the terran are clearly the strongest race... marauders are unstoppable. Playing protoss, seems like there is no way to stop a marauder rush. Zealots can't do shit, especially when the marauders get their slow ability they can just fire, back off, fire back off...and the zealots can never get a hit. And stalkers of course suck. Survive the rush and try to build air to stop them? Terran will build vikings. Don't even bother building phoenixes to counter the vikings cause vikings tear them apart, even though they cost the same amount.
Seems like the only chance is to try to tech to robotics and start pumping out immortals.

edit: o I see people above me discussing/noticing the same exact thing :lol

Even in PvP games, I see players heavily going for Robotoics bays (with the near mandatory 3+ warp gates). Protoss only have three real options for scouting; hallucination, Phoenixes, or observers, and like others have said phoenixes don't really do shit but cost more mineral, and hallucinations will delay your Warp Gate upgrade.
 

Won

Member
Ferrio said:
Wow I read about that bunker proxy shit... that's broken as hell. They should really make reapers's jet pack a researchable ability.

Then no one would bother using them. Their use is already as limited as it gets.
 

Adent

Can't manage for sh!t
I just lost a match but I don't know why. He attacked my base at the same time I attacked his. He was able to take out all my ground units and my 2 hives and a lot of my structures but I took out all his workers and went back to my base and took out his units there. Then I went back and was taking out his base. I saw he had a unit in by base and he attacked something then I lost. I still had a whole platoon of mutalisks. What did he take out that made it an instant loss for me even though I had the greater force?
 
Top Bottom