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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
- Thread starter Scrow
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close to the edge
Member
I need to see the replay of TheLittleOne with nukes and battlecruisers. I watched a bunch of his replays (with commentary) and he is pretty badass.Hazaro said:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=127046
Oh man this will be awesome.
I'm really really excited to watch how Tester plays.
The replays will be cast by Day[9] and Chill on Saturday, May 29 11:00am PDT.
Bo3's then Bo5's. $600, $300, $200, $100 to be won.
I think it's this game? HD and Husky also did a commentary for it, but the first link has Day9 which is probably a bit better.close to the edge said:
close to the edge
Member
Holy shit. This game did not disappoint. The only thing that could have made the game more awesome were Carriers and a Mothership.Snow said:
cooljeanius
Member
So what's with my previous profile getting deleted? Not like it really matters in my case, having only played against the computer so far, but it's still kind of annoying.
I'm sure this is answered already but how does one fight off siege tanks? Like.. alot of them? I've heard strategies from getting phoenixes and lifting them... to getting zealots with charge. Usually the opponent's composition is MM + siege with vikings supporting.
The issue for me is that I usually go quick robo but when I scout a factory, it's almost too late to switch to stargate as the economy doesn't support both a robo and stargate.
I hate to change my strategy drastically anyway as it destroys my unit composition.
So what should I do? research charge and go heavy zealots + sentry + immortals?
I'm terrible at micro too so I guess that's a huge part of it.
The issue for me is that I usually go quick robo but when I scout a factory, it's almost too late to switch to stargate as the economy doesn't support both a robo and stargate.
I hate to change my strategy drastically anyway as it destroys my unit composition.
So what should I do? research charge and go heavy zealots + sentry + immortals?
I'm terrible at micro too so I guess that's a huge part of it.
Azwethinkweiz
Member
Sarye said:
I believe colossi with upgraded range take care of them too.
Corum said:
Can you expand on that? Obviously only immortals will get shredded if we are talking like 6-8 tanks in siege. What kind of composition should I have? how should I attack?
upgraded range is 9 and tanks in siege is 12. Plus with the cost of colossus, it doesn't seem cost effective.
maniac-kun
Member
just played 4 games without problems
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
nice the HDH tournament got the nony/tlo matchup working. Should have VODs today or tomorrow.
Sarye said:
Draw the initial fire from the siege tanks with immortals and use the zealots charge to capitalise up-close, perhaps throw in a few sentries for additional defence with Guardian Shield. Depending on the opponents composition, if they're stacking mainly marauders over marines, then void-rays would be a suitable choice for countering.
Niice. Did they upload the Whitera-Idra match yet? I watched the stream but I know a few friends who haven't. They were awesome games and I honestly think they were more entertaining than this season's OSL finals.
Maybe something like zealot/stalker/sentry/immortals. Lead with a few immortals to soak up the initial shots and then try to get in close with the zealots. Use guardian shield on a sentry and then use the stalkers/sentries/immortals to focus down the tanks (move between shots to cover some ground if you can spare the micro for it). The immortals should take enough tank shots to keep you from losing too many units just getting into range and if the tanks go after the zealots, they'll damage their own units from splash damage.
You have to be careful of the opponent's micro, though. If he has a lot of marauders he'll focus down your immortals quickly and then the tanks will melt the rest.
Maybe something like zealot/stalker/sentry/immortals. Lead with a few immortals to soak up the initial shots and then try to get in close with the zealots. Use guardian shield on a sentry and then use the stalkers/sentries/immortals to focus down the tanks (move between shots to cover some ground if you can spare the micro for it). The immortals should take enough tank shots to keep you from losing too many units just getting into range and if the tanks go after the zealots, they'll damage their own units from splash damage.
You have to be careful of the opponent's micro, though. If he has a lot of marauders he'll focus down your immortals quickly and then the tanks will melt the rest.
watervengeance
Member
V_Arnold said:
I don't want to sound like I'm a sore loser (well, I am, but that's a different story), but I always just get the feeling that I'd beat them all if they just played normally. And no, it's not that I don't scout or anything because I do. I will always catch their Stargate, <10 Pool, etc and be prepared for it (and win). But do I find it fun? No, because I don't enjoy playing 5 minute games.
I haven't played a game past 15 minutes in such a long time, maybe one every 20 games. As a result, I don't get nearly enough practice for the mid/late game. I don't get to play against better players to get practice. Every time I get close to the top of the ladder, I lose to super high level players (due to lack of practice). I occasionally lose to cheese because you can't ALWAYS scout it. So I'm pretty much stuck in a limbo where I don't suck as a player, but I can't do anything to really improve. Oh yeah, I'm already so prepared for when the game comes out. I just know that 75% of the players are gonna play this way.
I can understand if these people are playing in a tournament. I have no problems with that, because you do what you can to win. But I just can't get over the mentality that every other low level player just learns how to do these stupid builds instead of learning to play the game.
I know all I really do is complain in this thread about how much I lose, but whatever. Consider me the Bronze(Silver) level Yoshichan or something. No offense Yoshichan.
Note: I use the term cheese for pretty much every all-in build, and occasionally unorthodox strategies. It's much easier for me to type this way.
watervengeance said:I don't want to sound like I'm a sore loser (well, I am, but that's a different story), but I always just get the feeling that I'd beat them all if they just played normally. And no, it's not that I don't scout or anything because I do. I will always catch their Stargate, <10 Pool, etc and be prepared for it (and win). But do I find it fun? No, because I don't enjoy playing 5 minute games.
I haven't played a game past 15 minutes in such a long time, maybe one every 20 games. As a result, I don't get nearly enough practice for the mid/late game. I don't get to play against better players to get practice. Every time I get close to the top of the ladder, I lose to super high level players (due to lack of practice). I occasionally lose to cheese because you can't ALWAYS scout it. So I'm pretty much stuck in a limbo where I don't suck as a player, but I can't do anything to really improve. Oh yeah, I'm already so prepared for when the game comes out. I just know that 75% of the players are gonna play this way.
I can understand if these people are playing in a tournament. I have no problems with that, because you do what you can to win. But I just can't get over the mentality that every other low level player just learns how to do these stupid builds instead of learning to play the game.
I know all I really do is complain in this thread about how much I lose, but whatever. Consider me the Bronze(Silver) level Yoshichan or something. No offense Yoshichan.
Note: I use the term cheese for pretty much every all-in build, and occasionally unorthodox strategies. It's much easier for me to type this way.
This reminds me of playing original Command and Conquer on a LAN with buddies and you'd always have the guy that would try and demand that harvesters aren't attacked throughout the game.
If it helps, it seems that there is less cheese in the higher leagues because it is far less likely to work there. I got cheesed a lot during my placement matches but after winding up in gold/platinum, most people played straight up. I know a guy who is bronze-ish in skill level who is adamant about 8-pooling every game, but I think that mindset would be stamped out pretty quickly if he gets promoted.
If you want more practice playing longer games, maybe try figuring out which maps are prone to cheese tactics and then thumb them down in your map pool. I've been playing a lot of 2v2 and I've noticed that one particular map (I think it's named Coalition) is a complete cheese factory. I don't like it but I have to admit it's really putting my teammate and I on our toes in terms of scouting, and I think we've gotten better as a result.
If you want more practice playing longer games, maybe try figuring out which maps are prone to cheese tactics and then thumb them down in your map pool. I've been playing a lot of 2v2 and I've noticed that one particular map (I think it's named Coalition) is a complete cheese factory. I don't like it but I have to admit it's really putting my teammate and I on our toes in terms of scouting, and I think we've gotten better as a result.
I understand a little. Since the last big wave of invites went out, I have noticed a huge increase in the amount of all-in rush games Ive been in. Even some Gold players use it a lot. It seems like 3/4 of the games Ive played since last week have been all-in rushes in the first 5 minutes. At first it was kind of cool to prepare for it and deal with it, but now it is just annoying. It isnt tough to counter, if you have a scout and once you have it contained they disconnect immediately or you wipe them with whatever army you have left. They build nothing in their base, so you dont really learn much. They are easy wins, so it is good if you want the points to move up, but far from fun. Ive taken to playing insane difficulty ai mods, because at least I get a chance to practice a build past spawning pool.watervengeance said:I don't want to sound like I'm a sore loser (well, I am, but that's a different story), but I always just get the feeling that I'd beat them all if they just played normally. And no, it's not that I don't scout or anything because I do. I will always catch their Stargate, <10 Pool, etc and be prepared for it (and win). But do I find it fun? No, because I don't enjoy playing 5 minute games.
I haven't played a game past 15 minutes in such a long time, maybe one every 20 games. As a result, I don't get nearly enough practice for the mid/late game. I don't get to play against better players to get practice. Every time I get close to the top of the ladder, I lose to super high level players (due to lack of practice). I occasionally lose to cheese because you can't ALWAYS scout it. So I'm pretty much stuck in a limbo where I don't suck as a player, but I can't do anything to really improve. Oh yeah, I'm already so prepared for when the game comes out. I just know that 75% of the players are gonna play this way.
I can understand if these people are playing in a tournament. I have no problems with that, because you do what you can to win. But I just can't get over the mentality that every other low level player just learns how to do these stupid builds instead of learning to play the game.
I know all I really do is complain in this thread about how much I lose, but whatever. Consider me the Bronze(Silver) level Yoshichan or something. No offense Yoshichan.
Note: I use the term cheese for pretty much every all-in build, and occasionally unorthodox strategies. It's much easier for me to type this way.
MisterAnderson
Member
So I fixed Tempest's weird glitched Immortal/Zergling Reaper ramps :lol Still not sure how to set fixed team start locations on 2v2 on that map since I have it set for 4v4 fixed starting locations...gotta figure that out because that map is perfect for a big 2v2 game, or even a 2v2v2v2 game.
Also published the newer version of Lotus Prime. I'd like to get some more testing of Chaos Sanctuary at some point as I've only been able to play 1 game on it and it was when the servers were literally lagging every 5-10 seconds.
Also published the newer version of Lotus Prime. I'd like to get some more testing of Chaos Sanctuary at some point as I've only been able to play 1 game on it and it was when the servers were literally lagging every 5-10 seconds.
You're not building up anything though. Your overall skill doesn't improve much when you successfully pull off a cheese as opposed to some other kind of tactic. All you're doing is making numbers go up, and when you meet someone who CAN counter that cheese with better play then you're fucked, because relying on cheesing improves your game way too slowly.
No. You know what's unexpected? Mass phoenix, burrowed infestors taking over your tanks, multiple concurrent drops, DT harassment at every expo. You don't benefit at all from using or fighting against a cheese because almost every cheese strategy has been outlined and countered and posted online. And isn't the purpose of a cheese to not give your opponent a chance to counter? Take 6pool for example, it's countered by heavy worker micro, but the effort it takes to go to 6pool vs the effort it takes to counter it using nothing but workers is radically different. So even if someone beats you with it, it doesn't mean they're better than you in every other situation. Only in this specific instance.
I don't get that last part. Why would you do that, there's no point to playing the game if you're not even thinking about the next one. The driving force behind competitive games is because each instance you play is practice for the next one.
Ice Monkey
Member
Cru Jones said:
Yeah but that's much more understandable because if there's anything the original C&C's did wrong compared to starcraft and warcraft and such it was how expensive and long to build their harvesters were combined with the fact that each had to hang out at it's own precious building that sucks up power for more than a few seconds (not red alert though I guess).
Not only that but the resources were always farther from the base exponentially compared to starcraft and warcraft so they were by definition vulnerable. AND you couldnt even build on the tiberium in order to defend your harvesters whatsoever with static d if necessary.
It may not have seemed like it but I would say calling "no attacking harvesters" is akin to saying "make C&C more like starcraft in the easiest way possible during this game plzkthxbai" and there aint nothing wrong with that IMHO.
Now if they asked for no harvesters and no refinerys be attacked then they're just being pussies is all.
Sarye said:
EDIT: I missed the viking part so I edited my post.
So you are talking fairly late game correct? He has vikings and tanks at that point.
My suggestion would be to try High Templar storm. Works well for those clumps of MM as well as his sieged tanks (can't move out of the storm when seiged). Also if you are in a bind and you have used all the energy of two templar, merge them into an archon. The archon has like 350+ hps. So it should be of some use since he doesn't have ghosts to EMP them.
Again it fits into your tech if your are getting charge or blink. Also you can blink your stalkers next to the tanks to do a similar tactic to the zealot drop.
mbmonk said:
That's a pretty good idea and I haven't thought of using a dropship. I probably wouldn't drop immortals as they're expensive and will keep immortals with my main army. (they do +20 to armor so I would want to keep them alive as long as possible).
I guess a dropship of only zealots should do the job. Most tank heavy armies also have heavy vikings as support so a drop may be a bit difficult to achieve. All this requires micro which I'm TERRIBLE at. Like.. Terrible..
Maybe I should practice that.
Sarye said:
I completely edited my original post, because I missed the whole VIKING thing. Please re read my new comment.
I tend to forget about drop ships as well, but since I like to get the observer out early, then I already have the ability to make drop ships w/ relatively low cost. The drop ship actually opens up quite a bit of options.
Harrass through drop & or proxy pylon
zealot bomb
expand to remote locations (islands) etc.
So one drop ship can really give you some options.
Zealot bombs were a common tactic in Starcraft 1. And I've seen White_ra pop an immortal out for a second to absorb that first siege shot before dropping more fragile units when doing harassment. It's probably only really viable against specific targets though. Say, maybe a handful of tanks on a ridge or something.Sarye said:
Sarye said:
As has already been said, immortals. Not sentries or zealots. Do not even send in Zealots or Stalkers or Sentries until you can destroy the tanks or move them back.
Usually when we talk about "counters" in games like these, they're essentially soft counters: for example, Stalkers can beat Void Rays, but you still need to spend a near equal amount on your Stalkers to win. You can't expect to spend half as much on your Stalker army and demolish him.
Well, Immortal Vs. Siege Tank is not one of these "soft" counters. It's a very, very hard counter. You can literally send 4 Immortals against 8-9 Siege Tanks and demolish them.
They really, honestly won't. I'd say a group of Immortals can take on a group of Siege Tanks 2x their size.
All of this is predicated on what other units they have. So, for example, if it's siege tanks guarded by Marines, the plan changes. You might want Stalkers with your Immortals to keep the marines off your Immortals while they do their work, or (optimally) Carriers. Perhaps DTs, if the opponent forgets Ravens. In other words, your support unit will depend on situation.
But the main point is that the Immortal is a very hard counter for a Siege Tank. They also eat Thors for Breakfast.
Sarye said:
Well if you are bad at micro I wouldn't use a micro heavy strategy, like I suggested. Unless you really want to work and practice on micro. Then of course feel free.
The Hight Templar method (or blink with Stalker) should require much less micro and thus might be more effective for you.
Sorry about leading you down the wrong path initially by not carefully reading your original post.
EDIT: That old saying 'measure twice, cut once', I need to 'read twice, and reply once' :lol
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
awesomembmonk said:
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6483
well here's a spine crawler rush. it seems a looot more effective than a cannon rush. what can i do to beat it? can 2 marines down 3 crawlers before they spawn? should i always keep an scv just out my base against zerg to block a hatchery going down?
as soon as the front is broken they can just run in zerglings and youre done. especially if you built to counter the rush
ChronicleX
Banned
Snow said:
I must of missed that one, that was fun to watch :lol
The second game of the Final -- TLO vs WhiteRa was also hilarious.
Edit
-COOLIO- said:
You did not scout, your own fault. All you had todo was see the hatch go down then you could just rally your units to the hatch to prevent any spinecrawlers being made/used. Hatch would of had to been cancelled or would of finished and been a waste of 400 min.
In short - Fail rush. It would of made more sense to make two queens, sending the first across the map to make creep tumors near the base to plant SpineCrawlers, with the hatch a little further away.
thestopsign
Member
Just won my first Diamond league game (now 1-3). I basically won because of units placed at a Xelnaga tower, saw that he had a large force coming and immediately started creating units and spine crawlers to bolster my defense. Probably would have lost to that push if I hadn't seen it coming.