So how often do high level players go into a game already knowing what they're planning to do? Do they usually pick an early strat they're going to try and then only change it if scouting turns up an unfavorable matchup? Or is it better to rely on the results of the initial scout, and if that fails then quickly go for your next scouting option while preparing for a rush just in case?
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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
- Thread starter Scrow
- Start date
Scrow said:ultralisks rip marines to shreds.
the splash damage on those kaiser blades is brutal to a mob of marines. the army will melt away.
Ice Monkey said:
I keep hearing the ultralisk answer as a counter to that and it just drives me nuts that a counter to relatively early tech for terran is the end game unit for zerg. When you consider the upgrades you need for the ultra itself, as well as that it drives you down the zergling tree (for melee damage upgrades), it just doesn't seem right that Blizzard wants us to counter that way.
That being said, it *has* to be better then watching my hydralisk mass go down like they are paper mache, so I'm going to give that a real shot next time.
The baneling tips are also very interesting. I definitely have not put much thought into their use (I usually try to run them in while the fight is going on as a distraction without much luck). The burrow tips are pretty ingenious.
At least now I have a few ideas to play around with. I still think terran needs a nerf there, but then again so do most people think roaches need a nerf (and I'd agree that they do). Hopefully I can pull out a better win/loss ratio vs terran now though.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Ice Monkey said:
You can explode while burrowed?
AdventureRacing
Member
Zek said:
Go in with a basic build order and plan and adjust depending on what you scout.
Zek said:
Good players generally have a build order prepared going into a game, based on the map (starting position could affect it) and matchup (eg. Zerg vs Protoss).
Great players are the ones that can instantly and correctly adapt to unexpected situations due to superb scouting. Many good players will mindlessly try to carry out their original plan even when they discover the opponent is doing something that could ruin it. Many average or bad players will panic and neither carry out their original plan nor adjust, and just flail around doing nothing useful until they die.
Ice Monkey
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:
yessir
oh and bisonian, please take a look at how david kim utilizes banelings from 4:20 in this video of mine onwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIpvTVcn7Zo
Note in particular how at 5:30 he starts to distract by using mutas like i mentioned using any units whatsoever, and rolling through with banelings and mopping everyone up during the distraction. Plus, he destroys a section of the terran wall with the mutas (could have been any number of units) then at about 6:35 right near the end he rolls up with the banelings straight into the mineral line until he surrounds the CC, destroys the CC in one hit then targets every last SCV. I know the game was over at that point but the tactics are solid for any fight.
The key is distracting with other units, the speed upgrade, surrounding stuff and/or the burrowed trap techniques.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Ice Monkey said:yessir
oh and bisonian, please take a look at how david kim utilizes banelings from 4:20 in this video of mine onwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIpvTVcn7Zo
Note in particular how at 5:30 he starts to distract by using mutas like i mentioned using any units whatsoever, and rolling through with banelings and mopping everyone up during the distraction. Plus, he destroys a section of the terran wall with the mutas (could have been any number of units) then at about 6:35 right near the end he rolls up with the banelings straight into the mineral line until he surrounds the CC, destroys the CC in one hit then targets every last SCV. I know the game was over at that point but the tactics are solid for any fight.
The key is distracting with other units, the speed upgrade, surround mechanic and/or the burrowed trap techniques.
Holy shot.. Im gonna go just make banelings nonstop now haha
Ice Monkey
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:
its really amazing how few people I've seen using them. Also, you'd think with all these techniques I am imparting that I'd be a baneling master, but I'm rather the opposite: all of them get killed, but I realized lately it was because i was neglecting flanking attacks, distractions and most importantly, the speed upgrade (it makes them roll over while they move how could I not have noticed the game knocking me over the head with that?!)
As I just mentioned, it's so blindingly obvious that to use banelings as more than traps you need the speed upgrade. THAT'S their nerf. banelings without speed are only really good for traps IMHO. It's like the tooltip should just say "for when you want to use these as more than mousetraps in this game"
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Would you recommend turning on their auto cast before attacking or no?
Ice Monkey said:
That video is awesome. Speed upgrade would definitely help what I'm doing, as well as just a sheer mass of banelings. Right now I go cracklings/mutas vs terran, so this would fit in nicely with what I've been trying to accomplish there.
I think it's important to note too for everyone trying to get better or learn the game in this thread -- Zerg doesn't win because of the banelings in this video, awesome as they are. He asserts map control through his mutalisk harass first of all. Aggression almost always pays off in StarCraft unless you just blindly through units away. That terran probably could have done some damage had he not been scared to leave. Those air turrets he had to made are units he doesn't have in any attack later on.
Secondly, he is always spending his money, even if he at one point just had to lay down 3 hatcheries in his base to get more larvas faster.
Expanding is only one part of the game, you have to spend that money as well to really be successful at the game, continuing to drive that food number as the game progresses. The game is obviously not quite that simple, but one of the best ways to get yourself to a base level of competence is practice driving your unit counts up and efficiently making and spending those resources.
Again, thanks for the video and all the tips.
Ice Monkey
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:
Well, the auto cast is for buildings, with it off they only attack units so unless you want to destroy all buildings in a base then just target buildings when you desire. They auto attack units no matter what.
Bisonian said:
agree with everything you said here.
the player he played against wasnt much of a challenge at all, its like he was toying with him. But when you watch that video, and since it's DAVID EFFING KIM, it's so amusing how amazingly professionally he played it, like the terran was any match for him. He started banelings basically as the numero uno counter to mmm, especially for PROs. I'd have to say ultras are barely even necessary except for the fact that they are like what you need to do in late game.
He could have gone with some late game stuff like hive tech but instead played completely mid-game, and from that you see just how good he is, he doesn't attack with really anything that requires hive tech and yet he could have, easily.
banelings are as early as roaches! and yet they are perfectly suitable to late game finishers. The thing thats funny is that ultralisk might be a counter to mmm in a way, but banelings are exactly that, the bane of mmm and/or any kind of infantry.
Ice Monkey
Member
i just had an AWESOME thought... what if a zerg player would open a push by taking out a key structure with dropped banelings? so you get some amazing battle going and have before the battle known some calculation for exactly how many banelings would kill a given structure. For zerg which I know the best I'd say, it would be the spawning pool. You just come in with lets say 7 exact banelings you created and just hit the spawning pool and the queen and now they are crippled beyond belief.
with as powerful as banelings are in general especially considering the cost, it seems to be a perfect way to drastically cripple someone. You could even just go for the nexus/hatch/cc with the exact amount of banes or maybe 5 extra and use some other force to do the army vs army push.
with as powerful as banelings are in general especially considering the cost, it seems to be a perfect way to drastically cripple someone. You could even just go for the nexus/hatch/cc with the exact amount of banes or maybe 5 extra and use some other force to do the army vs army push.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
The queens heal ability is so wrothless..
Also zerglings really bite.. even with the upgraded attack speed.. it feels like I need 200/200 cap to even get into some bases =[
Also zerglings really bite.. even with the upgraded attack speed.. it feels like I need 200/200 cap to even get into some bases =[
Might not be worthless if your Greater Spire/Hive/Ultra Den is about to be sniped and your queen barely saves it.TurtleSnatcher said:
It's very situational and I am glad it is in.
I've seen it be used in a replay (to heal one ultra) to successfully protect an expo while the army took the time to come and save it.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
I agree on a weaning building.. I did use it to save my Lair when a guy was hitting me with mutas while I was attempting to get some hydras out.. worked well then.
I just hit Platinum on SC2
Woot
Maybe but lets say you have 4 queens vs 8 zeals.. yea.. im not even gonna bother doing that.. haha.. They die so easily and do so little dmg that iw ould barely dent that army =[
I just hit Platinum on SC2
Woot
ZealousD said:
Maybe but lets say you have 4 queens vs 8 zeals.. yea.. im not even gonna bother doing that.. haha.. They die so easily and do so little dmg that iw ould barely dent that army =[
You are in plat and bring up that ridiculous scenario? wat.TurtleSnatcher said:I agree on a weaning building.. I did use it to save my Lair when a guy was hitting me with mutas while I was attempting to get some hydras out.. worked well then.
I just hit Platinum on SC2
Maybe but lets say you have 4 queens vs 8 zeals.. yea.. im not even gonna bother doing that.. haha.. They die so easily and do so little dmg that iw ould barely dent that army =[
Also if you feel limited at 200/200 give hydra/corrupter/brood lord a shot.
It is basically invincible. Or so I hear.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Never said I felt limited at 200/200 though I mentioned that it felt like Zlings only could be highly affective if I maxd myself out on them (Which I doubt is true.. just felt like it).. Weak little buggers.Hazaro said:
And here we go.. Elitist attitudes from a few of the GAFers.. I'm asking some questions.. I have some opinions. Counterpoints I even agreed too like you mentioned in the building scenario.
But man.. its a fucking beta.. I can't believe we have people already bagging on peoples skill levels and questioning why they hit a certain peak because of the questions they ask... good lord elitists.
EDIT: Jesus christ - and the guy isnt even in beta yet.. :lol
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Zzoram said:
Yea.. I need to get the mentality out of my head from the original SC where I sent in like 200+ zerglings and won some games.. :lol
banelings exploding while burrowed needs to be balanced imo.
clicking the explode button while burrowed should automatically make them unburrow first THEN explode.
OR
explosion damage while burrowed is reduced by some %
clicking the explode button while burrowed should automatically make them unburrow first THEN explode.
OR
explosion damage while burrowed is reduced by some %
i like it to speed up the recovery of some badly injured ultras so i can get them back into fight quickerTurtleSnatcher said:
Chris Remo
Member
Woo, my buddy and I reached #1 in the Copper 2v2 league (after 26 straight games on Saturday, god) and then Battle.net bumped us up to Bronze. After just a few games today, we made it up to #2 in that league. Hopefully we can keep moving up! I'd like to land in Silver.
I think we must have just run into a matchmaking fluke or something in our initial placement. It's too bad we can't go back and do it again. I doubt we're Platinum-level players but I'm sure we could at least compete in Silver.
I think we must have just run into a matchmaking fluke or something in our initial placement. It's too bad we can't go back and do it again. I doubt we're Platinum-level players but I'm sure we could at least compete in Silver.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
ive tried the burrowed explosions.. it takes pretty good timing but can be so very deadly. I took out 9 zealots as tehy were marching up my ramp.
I think laying maybe 2 every few feet in a line near the ramp, on it, at the end of it.. then elsewhere on the pathway to your base would be devestating if you just time each of those explosions as he was walking over.
Man.. i wanna try that now
I think laying maybe 2 every few feet in a line near the ramp, on it, at the end of it.. then elsewhere on the pathway to your base would be devestating if you just time each of those explosions as he was walking over.
Man.. i wanna try that now
As someone who only got the beta last Friday I have to say the competition is pretty intense in platinum, it seems like two weeks was long enough for everyone to learn everything about the game
Meanwhile I am losing to the cheesiest dumbest strats, hellion drops and void ray rushes etc...
Still winning 50% of the time but it's frustrating to lose to people who have been playing long enough to have perfect builds for these obscure strategies. Damn blizzards wave invite system!
Meanwhile I am losing to the cheesiest dumbest strats, hellion drops and void ray rushes etc...
Still winning 50% of the time but it's frustrating to lose to people who have been playing long enough to have perfect builds for these obscure strategies. Damn blizzards wave invite system!
decided to have some fun tonight and see what the game could do.
thought i'd get the maximum number of zerglings possible (400). to do it you have to get an excess amount of minerals and then kill off your drones and queens and any other units you might have, which opens up the remaining supply spots. then you use your excess minerals to make the remaining zerglings.
400! THIS. IS. STARCRAFT.
and an up close shot
i also discovered that the maximum number of units you can have in a single control group is 255. good to know if i ever send out a swarm of zerglings.
thought i'd get the maximum number of zerglings possible (400). to do it you have to get an excess amount of minerals and then kill off your drones and queens and any other units you might have, which opens up the remaining supply spots. then you use your excess minerals to make the remaining zerglings.
400! THIS. IS. STARCRAFT.
and an up close shot
i also discovered that the maximum number of units you can have in a single control group is 255. good to know if i ever send out a swarm of zerglings.
AI 6.1 changelog:
AI will attempt to counter air units. (First real reactive code)
- Expansioncode fixed, after taking out the AIs main he'll re-organise at adifferent location. He'll also rebuild expansions if they're destroyed.
- Major tweaks to make the AI alot more of a challenge.
- Chrono boost is in, thanks to Aeg1s for working this one out.
- Zerg will now build a queen for each expansion.
- Defence code has been improved, AI will defend bases depending on how much they're contributing to the economy.
There is no easy edition, and I also won vs 6.0 using air to snipe expansions :O
AI will attempt to counter air units. (First real reactive code)
- Expansioncode fixed, after taking out the AIs main he'll re-organise at adifferent location. He'll also rebuild expansions if they're destroyed.
- Major tweaks to make the AI alot more of a challenge.
- Chrono boost is in, thanks to Aeg1s for working this one out.
- Zerg will now build a queen for each expansion.
- Defence code has been improved, AI will defend bases depending on how much they're contributing to the economy.
There is no easy edition, and I also won vs 6.0 using air to snipe expansions :O
:lolTurtleSnatcher said:
Sorry if I came across that way. Glad you like banelings on ramps.
Baneling conga line works wonders against a zealot conga line and anything else for that matter (Also hydras are light units).
*Just look at my tag and remember not so serious. I'm just trying to offer input right now SINCE I CAN'T PLAY. Ugh. I doubt I'd place higher than Silver anyway.
What is this?
TurtleSnatcher
Member
<3Hazaro said:
Rest experience is built up while you aren't playing and adds bonus points to your next game (I believe it helps deflect loss in pts if you lose.. and boosts win pts if you win).. Though I really think it may just be for wins.
I ended up going 9-1 in my placement matches. I decided to stick to zerg about halfway through and for the first few games I went Zerglings and teched to Banelings.. it failed me once agst a Toss who just massed so many Zealots and mixed in some Stalkers and Collusus =[.
I destroyed Terrans though that were going M&M with them. I later moved to Hydras agst the Terran as he was getting Banshees and Vikings to harass OL's and go for my lairs.
I'm to scared to even play in Platinum now from how everyone is saying that the other leagues are so hard. I DONT WANT TO LOSE PLATINUM! :lol
I'm going to try a hidden spire build.. Tech up to Spire on Terrans or Toss that decide to tech themselves.. then take a random OL who I move into a random spot on the map and start laying creep and build a Spire out there.. maybe see how that works
I have a replay with me and mint (neogaf bug avatar dude) playing in a 2v2 uploading to YT with commentary. Should be finished my early afternoon.
The Lamonster
Member
Anything new with more high-level news?
(ie: release date, how successful beta data gathering has been, galaxy editor in the beta, 3v3 in the beta, etc.)
(ie: release date, how successful beta data gathering has been, galaxy editor in the beta, 3v3 in the beta, etc.)
Ice Monkey
Member
honestly burrowed explosion is kinda like manual spider mines. If you're good enough to catch a force coming up your ramp and explode in time to hurt them then you deserve to have them go off at full power.
It's not a foolproof strategy by any means. It's completely, utterly wrecked if they just bring a detector which they should be doing by default anyway, or they should have to use up a scan sweep if they don't want to get caught by it.
It's not a foolproof strategy by any means. It's completely, utterly wrecked if they just bring a detector which they should be doing by default anyway, or they should have to use up a scan sweep if they don't want to get caught by it.
Ice Monkey
Member
zoukka said:
first rule of gaf games is you do not talk about gaf games
Ice Monkey
Member
zoukka said:
lol it was a fight club reference for laffs
Ice Monkey said:lol it was a fight club reference for laffs
I knew where it's from :b
Fuck I rushed a terran with 6 lings, killed bunch a workers, harassed some more, then teched roaches, countered his mass marines with them and immediately wormed his base. And lost.
I stand zero chance in this league
TurtleSnatcher
Member
zoukka said:I knew where it's from :b
Fuck I rushed a terran with 6 lings, killed bunch a workers, harassed some more, then teched roaches, countered his mass marines with them and immediately wormed his base. And lost.
I stand zero chance in this league
How did you lose to mass marines with roaches? D:
TurtleSnatcher
Member
God I hate YouTube.
Anyways I apologize for it not being widescreen yet I saved the videos off to be widescreen. I will fix the 3rd video tonight. Not sure why its so much smaller.. I think Windows Movie Maker took the smaller sized movie and made it even smaller by converting it 2x.. wtf?
Here is the match that mint and I had last week with my lame voice commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KikWsr5Vw - Pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoHJ_nRfI_U - Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewij4Ty2Fm4 - Pt 3 (Sorry.. Ill fix this one a bit tonight)
Anyways I apologize for it not being widescreen yet I saved the videos off to be widescreen. I will fix the 3rd video tonight. Not sure why its so much smaller.. I think Windows Movie Maker took the smaller sized movie and made it even smaller by converting it 2x.. wtf?
Here is the match that mint and I had last week with my lame voice commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KikWsr5Vw - Pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoHJ_nRfI_U - Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewij4Ty2Fm4 - Pt 3 (Sorry.. Ill fix this one a bit tonight)
TurtleSnatcher
Member
=[zoukka said:
Gotta burrow!
Ive learned that just watching maybe 3-4 roaches and burowing those near death can change the whole playing field.. its crazy.