darkpaladinmfc
Member
I think it's because when their APM is averaged at the end, having a really low APM at the beginning may deflate it. Remember, some SC1 pros have 300+ APM.Ice Monkey said:
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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
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Ice Monkey
Member
oh and pez I have to chime in about that match you put up on youtube...I just don't understand these random people on battle.net!
He's like "avid starcraft player?" and doesn't believe you that you don't play alot. Then calls you a "fuckin nerd" it just doesn't make any sense. You just got in on a really sweet deal with like 6 zerglings and he's a complete idiot not knowing how to defend his base. The worst is that he then comes to your base with like 6 zealots....and proceeds to throw two of them away. If you're a "fuckin nerd" then he's a goddamn idiot it's so ridiculous.
I like how then he thinks he's got your ass when he makes a few immortals and gets completely rickrolled by a pack of zerglings. Even if you handt already been building them you could have had like 20 out in a matter of 30 seconds and they'd still be dead.
This guy is like braindead and he loses to you and you're of course by default a nerd who has done nothing but play starcraft for the past ten years. It's just so funny!
In one of my videos I rickroll a guy with some mutas and a nydus attack, and he called me a "fuckin noob". I find it patently hilarious people calling others who beat them "noobs" It's like blizzard went to the mental hospital and gave all the patients with lobotomies sc2 beta keys.
He's like "avid starcraft player?" and doesn't believe you that you don't play alot. Then calls you a "fuckin nerd" it just doesn't make any sense. You just got in on a really sweet deal with like 6 zerglings and he's a complete idiot not knowing how to defend his base. The worst is that he then comes to your base with like 6 zealots....and proceeds to throw two of them away. If you're a "fuckin nerd" then he's a goddamn idiot it's so ridiculous.
I like how then he thinks he's got your ass when he makes a few immortals and gets completely rickrolled by a pack of zerglings. Even if you handt already been building them you could have had like 20 out in a matter of 30 seconds and they'd still be dead.
This guy is like braindead and he loses to you and you're of course by default a nerd who has done nothing but play starcraft for the past ten years. It's just so funny!
In one of my videos I rickroll a guy with some mutas and a nydus attack, and he called me a "fuckin noob". I find it patently hilarious people calling others who beat them "noobs" It's like blizzard went to the mental hospital and gave all the patients with lobotomies sc2 beta keys.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
I need to use ev chambers more.. for such a small cost to build and the upgrades.. man it would be great. Most people say go for attack upgrades first but now im questioning if I should do armor.. or maybe just get 2 evo chambers.
It just feels like marauders attack so dmg fast at a higher dmg then something like a marine with stim. and then when they have like 6 med vacs constantly healing them it just feels like my hydras stand no chance. Zlings seem to do diddly to marauders.. I can surround one and he can live for 5-8 seconds each it feels like
It just feels like marauders attack so dmg fast at a higher dmg then something like a marine with stim. and then when they have like 6 med vacs constantly healing them it just feels like my hydras stand no chance. Zlings seem to do diddly to marauders.. I can surround one and he can live for 5-8 seconds each it feels like
infinityBCRT
Member
It'd be nice if Blizzard actually looked at current netbooks and optimized it so that they could run SC2 at 30 FPS on native res.radeonxt said:
Hm, but are MMM really OP'd? I know what you guys are talking about, when they are stimmed with medivacs backing them up, they are really tough to beat unless you micro really good.
BUT, I feel this was pretty much the case in the original too. M&M in SC1 raped most of zerg units. The only way to control them is to either tech to lurkers (which are lacking in SC2) or Ultras. But by then, all you need against zerg (even in all the pro games I've watched) are M&M, Tanks and science vessels.
BUT, I feel this was pretty much the case in the original too. M&M in SC1 raped most of zerg units. The only way to control them is to either tech to lurkers (which are lacking in SC2) or Ultras. But by then, all you need against zerg (even in all the pro games I've watched) are M&M, Tanks and science vessels.
man mech is weak.
these flame cars are too jittery for their own good when you have tanks behind you and they're waaaay too weak to roaches.
once you have thors and ravens in the air they're okay, but that requires you to get thors and ravens before dying. hard to do.
these flame cars are too jittery for their own good when you have tanks behind you and they're waaaay too weak to roaches.
once you have thors and ravens in the air they're okay, but that requires you to get thors and ravens before dying. hard to do.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The protoss dude in that video is dumb. Also seemed odd that the zerg didn't do much at his own base until an attack was coming. Guess it didn't matter much though (haven't finished part 2 of the video yet).
I notice many people don't upgrade their units. I get an evo chamber pretty quickly, and might try getting two next time.
Usually I just go straight roaches and rush with 6-7, when my partner is ready. It's successful especially against protoss and zerg. MM can really throw a wrench in my plans. I'll try lings+roaches next time I'm against terran
I notice many people don't upgrade their units. I get an evo chamber pretty quickly, and might try getting two next time.
Usually I just go straight roaches and rush with 6-7, when my partner is ready. It's successful especially against protoss and zerg. MM can really throw a wrench in my plans. I'll try lings+roaches next time I'm against terran
Pandaman said:man mech is weak.
these flame cars are too jittery for their own good when you have tanks behind you and they're waaaay too weak to roaches.
once you have thors and ravens in the air they're okay, but that requires you to get thors and ravens before dying. hard to do.
Yeah don't get hellions for roaches, roaches are armored. They do quite well vs. zerglings and hydras though. Or just worker harassment in general.
Fragamemnon
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:
Carapace upgrades at the very least are pretty much required IMO against Terran, else the smart ones will push right at 2-1 or 2-2 (depending if they went one or two ebays) and three or four medivacs and just trash your hydra/roach or hydra/ling army. Both in the game's I've played in testing/ladder and in the replays I've seen, that 2-1 and especially 2-2 marine army just cuts through Zerg like butter.
I personally had a game where 2-2 upgrades allowed me to walk through an opponent with some Broodlords with relative ease. A lot of Terrans are whining about Broodlords but they are MUCH easier to deal with once you get upgrades.
I don't like making Hellions past the opening stages of the game against Zerg. Float my factory and build a tech lab if they are going roach/hydra for tank/thor backup (+1 weapons lets Thors one-shot hydras and gives you a great hedge against Ultras lategame), or just float it to scout and go "sk terran" with MMM+Ravens.
Hellions against Protoss are sort of the same way, but I use them even less against P, usually only when they go for a one-gate tech build for fast obs+immortal. You can put on some real hurt with the first few Hellions before that Immortal comes out-especially if he decides to get zealots out instead of stalkers. Against two or even three gate builds siege expand into MMM+tanks+ghosts is really good as Protoss has to commit to an early attack which you can hold off with SCV repair+bunkers, and then they are behind one base (and eventually they'll take another base well after you take yours, which gives you this huge timing window for MMM+Ghost+tanks since you'll be on two base gas).
It just feels like marauders attack so dmg fast at a higher dmg then something like a marine with stim. and then when they have like 6 med vacs constantly healing them it just feels like my hydras stand no chance. Zlings seem to do diddly to marauders.. I can surround one and he can live for 5-8 seconds each it feels like
Make no mistake-usually in this situation it's the upgraded marines, not the marauders, that are cutting through your hydras. A base fast attack speed+stim+8 damage per round is (like in BW) a LOT of DPS.
Ice Monkey said:
It's not about the amount of times you clicked workers in SC1 compared to SC2, because this was common practice in SC1 too. It's not about your APM stats so much as it's about "warming up". The idea is that if you keep your APMs consistently high, it's easier to stay at that high level when you need to be later in the game. Otherwise, ramping up your APM is more like climbing uphill.
That's the IDEA anyway. I don't know if it actually works.
playing the AI, im thinking about switching to protoss if i ever get into the beta. i like zerg but my production is terrible and chrono boost is just beautiful.
creep tumours are nice though, they make hydras good. the ai never attacks them though, so do units naturally ignore them as targets?
creep tumours are nice though, they make hydras good. the ai never attacks them though, so do units naturally ignore them as targets?
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Duran said:
I'd say slim to none. Other companies do it to help as viral marketing for their game. You know dude gets in beta likes game, and tells friend's about it. Then gets a couple of codes to pass around to said friends so they can see what it's all about.
Blizzard doesn't have the need for this in any way shape or form. Plus they're having problems just keeping up with all the people that already want in.
"noob" has lost a lot of it's meaning now. bitter losers like that just use the word as an insult, rather than thinking about what they're saying. if you're a "noob" and you beat him... what does that make him? basically there's no sense to it. they're just throwing out insults but are too brain dead to realise the irony. just gotta lol at it really.Ice Monkey said:
Ice Monkey said:
APM is the biggest joke ever.
Whenever I see a "pro" match with people just spam clicking for no reason I laugh.
Then I die a little inside because of badly these people have bought into their own bullshit.
I almost don't want to mention it here but there is apparently a working maphack out in the wild. Obviously, using it threatens you're entire BNet account with the ban hammer, but people are using it anyway. Le sigh.
And what's the deal with Thor? He's simply not worth the money when compared to an equal value of smaller units. And his ability seems to do less damage over the full duration (attack time + startup and cooldown animation delays) than his standard attacks. When I first played around with it I thought it was some sort of area-attack ability - letting you lay down heavy suppressive fire. Nope. Targets a single unit/structure with little to no splash damage. D:
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Fragamemnon said:
Great tips.
I think I will double evo chamber early on since the mineral cost is so low.. then work on teching my upgrades.. The gas thing worries me a bit but we shall see.. Hydras just eat through so much gas for a small amount you get =[
So would the prefer combo be Hydra + Roaches vs M&M or.. Zlings + Hydras.. or do you have to get all 3? Feels like Zlings would get peeled down if I don't get speed boost but then I look at that as more gas down.. while roaches I know should get speed.. and Hydras with Range in the back.. thats like 400 gas right there to tech a few upgrades that I won't be able to use to make 16 roaches.. or 8 hydars =[
TurtleSnatcher said:
I'm no pro, but I would say roaches and roaches and roaches if you're dealing with Marines and Marauders. The healing boost roaches get in burrow (with the upgrade) is insane.
If they're going with Marines and Medivacs (or Marines Medivacs and Marauders) I'd go with roaches and roaches and hydras, and be sure to target those Medivacs first!
Roaches are insanely powerful if you can do any decent micro management with them.
Zerglings are for speed - scouting and harassment of workers. They shouldn't be your go-to guys for attacks. They should be supplemental after a fight has started - pouring in from other locations on the map, being built and rallied after the fight has started, etc.
Roaches and Hydras for the win.
Fragamemnon
Member
Mudkips said:
One thing also to keep in mind is that all that spam clicking and mousing at the start of a match gets your hands moving and gets them "warmed up". Having warm hands is a really big deal when you are getting into the really high APM land of pros and really good pro-am levels.
Personally, I HATE playing SC2 with cold hands. I'm not nearly as fast or as accurate as I'd like, I swear at the cold (so glad it's finally warmed up here). It's a big deal to me and I'm like barely over 100 eAPM at best in BW.
Also it helps set your mind in a fast mode to be ready for the match.
More APM is never bad so I don't see a reason to hate on it.
What you should look at is gameplay from people like Brat_OK (and his replay pack) that show his average APM at 200 for a 25 minute game, and 200 (current) the whole way through.
I mentioned fungal growth and infestors precisely because I actually saw a replay of that DECIMATE a MMM ball.
Here is another case between 2 ranked players (MinD is terran)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoabfO2wsFk#t=10m30s
Note Terran has a 30 supply advantage before going to the fight (140 vs 110)
Lings soak up starting tank / mard damage. Brood lords are just crazy powerful. Obviously this is more late game oriented (but not really at 11 minutes), another option to counter the MMM ball with tank backup.
More APM is never bad so I don't see a reason to hate on it.
What you should look at is gameplay from people like Brat_OK (and his replay pack) that show his average APM at 200 for a 25 minute game, and 200 (current) the whole way through.
I mentioned fungal growth and infestors precisely because I actually saw a replay of that DECIMATE a MMM ball.
Here is another case between 2 ranked players (MinD is terran)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoabfO2wsFk#t=10m30s
Note Terran has a 30 supply advantage before going to the fight (140 vs 110)
Lings soak up starting tank / mard damage. Brood lords are just crazy powerful. Obviously this is more late game oriented (but not really at 11 minutes), another option to counter the MMM ball with tank backup.
infinityBCRT
Member
I just had a comeback of my own. Bunch of void rays of mine got owned by turrets/vikings when i went on the attack. Then he nuked my base defenses and continued to nuke my base (he had like 10 ghost academys)-- to the point where I almost was ready to say gg. I managed to create 3 or 4 carriers with what was left in that base and got the hell out of there. My expansion was on the opposite side of the map, and I'm pretty sure he had no clue about it since he was very casual in trying to finish me off (he also created a bunch of sensor towers around the map but luckily none of them were exposing my expansion). Created 3 stargates there and amassed a bunch of carriers and void rays and pretty much owned him since his vikings/turrets were no match and the rest of his army was all marauders and thors.
Ice Monkey said:
He's not doing it to show off his "1337 APM skillz." This is done by most good players to warm-up, get in the zone, and keep a consistent rate of clicking going into the early mid game. You can see this same pre-game phenomenon in other competitive games and not just SC or RTS.
i think it's meant as a situational ability. the special attack stuns a unit and does heaps of damage, so for example i think you'd use it in a situation where your enemy sends a group of ultras to wipe you out. have a couple of thors on standby and pop their stun on a few of the ultras to cut his DPS while your other units deal with the ultras that aren't stunned. by the time the stun wears off the other ultras should be dead or softened up and the ultras that were stunned should almost be dead as well. but the main thing is you're effectively reducing his fighting force during the battle by stunning his big units.Mudkips said:
it's like with all other uber units. you need to supplement them with other units and strategies to effectively use them.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Would be awesome. Play SC2 while in class :lolinfinityBCRT said:
I just SC2 on my notebook and I get 45 fps on low settings. Woot..and this is with an integrated Intel graphics adapter.
Mila and I had a very nice 2v2 match earlier today before I left for work. Almost forgot to press the L button like the last game I had with demi when my CC was getting wrecked by the opponent's roaches. But we came out just fine
Mila and I had a very nice 2v2 match earlier today before I left for work. Almost forgot to press the L button like the last game I had with demi when my CC was getting wrecked by the opponent's roaches. But we came out just fine
VG247 has an interesting interview with Dustin Browder regarding what kind of stats they're seeing with the beta right now.
Dustin Browder said:
Ice Monkey
Member
thats interesting, it had never occurred to me that terrans were getting buffs based on win/loss statistics.
No wonder roaches havent been nerfed, so far it's probably been toss that has been dominating 1v1 and 2v2 so they wouldnt bother nerfing anything about zerg yet.
Oh and thanks for all the info about APM guys, it does help to explain why that hdstarcraft video looked so damned unnerving.
After just watching that one video however, I realize how much i appreciate replay mode, in that that was the first time i had seen something so striking like the strange apm warmups, he should just stop trying to be different and record the video after it's a replay. Nobody needs to see his strange apm warmups, at least not me or anyone else who feels the same way I do.
No wonder roaches havent been nerfed, so far it's probably been toss that has been dominating 1v1 and 2v2 so they wouldnt bother nerfing anything about zerg yet.
Oh and thanks for all the info about APM guys, it does help to explain why that hdstarcraft video looked so damned unnerving.
After just watching that one video however, I realize how much i appreciate replay mode, in that that was the first time i had seen something so striking like the strange apm warmups, he should just stop trying to be different and record the video after it's a replay. Nobody needs to see his strange apm warmups, at least not me or anyone else who feels the same way I do.
Gribbix said:
Dustin Browder said:
Good, I'd like to see more anti air units and a unit that can leap ledges like reapers/stalkers with blink. I know Roaches can burrow and move, but I'd love to see a stealth unit that can attack while stealth.
Hopefully the one map that sees major changes is Desert Oasis, god do I hate that map.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Just finished my placement matches, playing 1v1 zerg. Managed silver league, not unhappy about it considering the only RTS I've played in about 2 years has been dota
I managed to pull out some really silly wins with Nydus backdooring, I feel like I won't be able to get away with that as I move forward. Didn't use infestors or ultras at all, trying to expand my game.
I managed to pull out some really silly wins with Nydus backdooring, I feel like I won't be able to get away with that as I move forward. Didn't use infestors or ultras at all, trying to expand my game.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Wow how can they stress test with just 10k .. seems kinda low..
I'm shocked they are saying Terrans need most work.. but they do say its due to map design but I just don't agree.. makes me wonder when the interview was done.
I'm shocked they are saying Terrans need most work.. but they do say its due to map design but I just don't agree.. makes me wonder when the interview was done.
Fragamemnon
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:
I think that low-level Terran players in particular do have it rougher. Your early game is a lot slower to develop and you really have to play reactively and scout aggressively, P and especially Z's macro mechanic get them a bit ahead early on, and you might have to muss with bunkers and SCV repairing to hold off against a rush even if you are playing a relatively "safe" build.
The other issue is mobility, and what Zerg can do mid and late game with Nydus Worms and Protoss can do all game with warp prisms isn't anything remotely close to what Terran can do with medivac play (slow, high risk if drop is intercepted), and only dumb people lose more than one or two workers to a reaper harass, not that most Terrans bother with that now anyway since it is so trivially countered.
I think that the early game "wind up" issues can largely be fixed by maps in the same way that the slow to start Protoss versus Zerg matchup in BW was. The mobility issues would best be solved by some sort of Nydus Worm change (which has to happen for the popular Korean style large macro maps to not be completely imba in ZvT/ZvP) and an adjustment t o warp gates, something that will be completely necessary anyway due to the current complete devolution of PvP.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Cant tonight - But are you up for some tomorrow possibly?aznpxdd said:
Ill make a mandate with you <3
Ice Monkey said:
Only idiots mad click SCVs at the beginning just for the sake of increasing APM. In fact, idiots often accidentally stop all their workers by doing it, because they need to press "S" every now and then to make another SCV, but if they accidentally do it while they've got their SCVs selected, "S" also commands units to stop. It's quite hilarious to see it actually :lol
The Pros do it because they need to warm up their hands, they don't care what their APM is, they just want to keep their response time as short as possible so they are better at saving their workers from harassment and making sure they macro well. It's like warming up before any physically demanding sport, they do it to reduce the risk of injury and to increase performance. Pros often use heating pads for their hands and use a space heater to keep their hands warm. It's because the stadiums they play on are in very cold buildings due to air conditioning, a must in any large room with tons of people in it.
People keep tossing around the phrase APM without considering what it means. There are a ton of mediocre players with 400APM, that doesn't mean they are good or that anyone perceives them to be good. In fact, many great players like Stork only have 200APM and can still be among the best. APM usually translates to awareness. A lot of the APM is just masshing "1,1, 3,3, 4,4, 5,5, etc." to cause their screen to jump around from their army to their workers to their production facilities, etc, to keep an eye on everything. This is why they seem to have lightning fast reflexes, and as soon as a dropship appears near their workers, they've already got their SCVs running away. They look at their workers almost every few seconds to make sure they don't lose them.
They also look at their Barracks every 20 seconds to make sure they always have Marines being produced, which is why their armies always seem ridiculously large and seem to be replaced ridiculously fast. Most players completely forget to keep making units while they are watching their army fight. A good player's Barracks never stop blinking once they're at least ~10 minutes into the game and have steady income from 2 bases.
Freakinchair
Member
Dustin Browder said:
