-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT4| Everyone Else Would Beat Catspajamas
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Yes we can. Just need to load up brood war.
You're wrong. Everyone can be better/faster if they trained properly instead of just randomly laddering.
Korean ladder so hard.
Got into diamond finally as zerg -- every game is 2base allins except from zerg, when it's 1-base allins.
That actually sounds amazing for practicing. If my ladder opponents consistently used a small number of builds against me, I'd get so good defending against those builds.
AdventureRacing
Member
I think you have it the wrong way around. If all they do is 1 and 2 base all ins you would probably face a huge variety of different allins. If anything when you face people just trying to macro you will probably face less variety.
Zerg is the most reactive race, so that sounds about right. Make sure you scout a lot so you know what to react to.
How do you lose to that? You should ALWAYS scout after pylon in PvZ.
My favorite safe build is:
9 Pylon
14 Forge
16 Nexus
17 Gateway
17 Cannon (build before gateway if you don't scout a Hatchery before Pool)
17 Pylon
Depending on what you scouted, you either put up a bunch of cannons and pylons to stop a 1-base all-in, or you do:
Cybernetics Core as Gateway finishes (Warp Gate when done)
1x Zealot
19 Gas
20 Gas
Then pick a tech path. If this map has a 3rd that's entrance is small and close to the natural, you should go:
1x Sentry
+1 Ground Attack (Chrono Boost)
Robo
2x Gas (at natural)
3x Gateways
1x Sentry
4x Stalkers
3rd Nexus
+1 Ground Armor (Chrono Boost)
Make 1 Cannon at each Mineral Line at around 8minute mark in case of Mutas (always have in-game timer on)
Robo Bay
4x Stalker
2x Gateways
1x Observer
Twilight Council (get Blink as soon as it finishes)
Keep making Colossus/Stalker/Zealot
+2 Ground Attack
+3 Ground Attack
With constant Probe production and Pylons whenever necessary. Then go for a death ball of Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus and push at around 150 food and when +3 Ground Attack finishes.
If this map has a 3rd that's kinda far to reach from the natural, go:
1x Zealot
+1 Ground Attack (Chrono Boost)
Twilight Council (get Blink as soon as it finishes)
1x Zealot
2x Gas (at natural)
3x Gateways
1x Zealot (go pressure the Zerg 3rd with your 4 Zealots as +1 Ground Attack finishes)
+2 Ground Attack (Chrono Boost)
3x Gateways
Send a Probe out to make 2 or 3 Proxy Pylons towards Zerg's 3rd/Natural
Make nonstop Stalkers from your 7 gates. After the first warp in from all 7 Gateways, move out. Blink your ass off and win or lose.
You should always play win in-game timer on and know basic things like the fastest Mutalisks can come on 2 bases is ~8:30 or ~9:30 if the Zerg took a 3rd.
Also, play with Health Bars always on, it helps a lot for knowing when to Blink your Stalkers.
AdventureRacing
Member
When i stopped playing zerg i was pretty much exclusively playing masters. I never really had any plans or anything and i think i mostly won by playing differently to everyone else. The problem is i think playing protoss for so long has made me real rusty.
That and a lot of the things i used to do have become more standard nowadays. Going mutas against protoss and zerg used to something players weren't really used to. Now everyone just expects that.
I try to avoid doing FFE because i simply can't resist the temptation to cannon the zerg. I often end up cannon rushing their nat and 3rd lol (need to watch less incontrol).
You should learn to FFE; There's a reason ~0% of pro PvZ's involve anything but FFE.
14 Forge is safe against 6pool. Your 9 scout should spot it in time even on 4 player maps to put your 2nd pylon in your base and get a cannon up in your mineral line (surround it with hold position Probes if Zerglings go for your Probes instead of killing the Forge). At that point, get a Gateway ASAP, take Gas after, then do a 4gate.
AdventureRacing
Member
Yeah i know but i like doing weird styles and at our level you can make all sorts of things work. You're right though i should learn FFE. I would really like to learn how to do FFE builds that lead to carriers.
I have serious issues with that solution. I don't think any response to a fast pool that gives up your first pylon, the forge, and your natural will work against zergs who know what they're doing. It essentially resets the game and forces a gateway opening from P which is a massive advantage to the zerg. They just have to not fuck up and they're massively ahead. I personally cut probes and fully wall off when I scout early pools.
It's what the pros do in every game they get 6pooled while doing FFE.
After the reset, your 4gate still has a good chance to kill Zerg. You aren't really behind, you end up slightly ahead. You pretty much can't wall off before 6 lings arrive unless you 12 Forge on maps that require 3 large buildings to wall your natural, and 95% of the time going 12 Forge will hurt you because 6pool is rare.
Naa, you're right in that it does reset the game, but as long as you react fast enough and don't fuck up, you'll be ahead enough economy wise that a 4gate will just crush them unless you completely mess up.
i blame terran overnerfing and no lan :/
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Don't forget that I can't watch replay with my friends. That's huge and e-sports breaking.
It kinda is. Tournaments casted from replays always have one caster out of sync and saying stuff before it happens. Super annoying and would be solved by allowing people to watch replays together. Just give the host full control and make everyone else a spectator.
Are you in the beta for firefall?
Yes. Wreckin fools all day.
Breadth of Gameplay in SC2
A Mapmaker's Perspective on Improving SC2: "Less Resources per Base"
by Barrin
Good read. He brings up the other point of interest which is more time spent per mineral patch/more return per, but I think that could go along side 7m2g.
It's a good read, and I agree that lower worker populations/more bases design would be better than how SC2 works now. But I disagree that it'll have a particularly large effect effect like he would want it to.
Mainly because SC II is broke as shit with awful units.
Also here's the 2011 BW Highlight video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjkctj71-aU
2009 is still my personal favorite, over a dozen views and I still get nerd chills.
Well yeah, SC2 has too few ways to control space to make it play like broodwar. I think that will be better in ZvT in HotS, but so far it looks like PvT, PvZ, PvP, and mybe ZvZ won't. Oh well, fingers crossed.
AdventureRacing
Member
I am happy with the way ZvZ is now.
PhoenixDark
Banned
AdventureRacing
Member
I like PvP as well 
.
.I dont think zvz is that bad, but watching people who are terrible at zvz makes me want to rip my hair out. Sadly this is most zvz matches.
The general lack of zergs in the gsl also leads to it not being that well developed or understood too. For example drg has only played 10 zvzs in korea (on the tlpd). Compare that to 50 zvt. Nestea 33 zvz, 91 zvt. Leenock 23 zvz, 102 zvt.
The general lack of zergs in the gsl also leads to it not being that well developed or understood too. For example drg has only played 10 zvzs in korea (on the tlpd). Compare that to 50 zvt. Nestea 33 zvz, 91 zvt. Leenock 23 zvz, 102 zvt.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's time people get over the fact that SC2 is not BW. As the game evolves and becomes more complex, these arguments will become less prevalent imo.
I'm certainly no fan of Colosuses and other kill-everything-fast units, but let's see where the game goes this year and next year
Red Bull LAN - Sheth vs Protoss Training: Trying to figure out ZvP against Air toss -> 3 base P
Stream is up, will be up in a while. Sheth vs JYP right now Bo5?
JYP with some really great VR control. He really knows what they are capable of.
Stream is up, will be up in a while. Sheth vs JYP right now Bo5?
JYP with some really great VR control. He really knows what they are capable of.
It's not SC II vs BW. It's that SC II has many many areas to improve on that BW addresses already. The things that allow BW to be BW are not present in SC II.
AdventureRacing
Member
I do very well at pvp on the ladder and i never 4 gate (literally have never done one) or build collosus ever. My go to play is stargate play (void ray or phoneix into carriers) with immortals.
I don't think that is an accurate description of PvP or ZvZ. Also are we talking about watching or playing the game? Because that changes the discussion quite a bit.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The problem with that argument is that the things that allow BW to be BW took years to foster. SCII has been out for less than two years.
I was mostly talking about watching it. PvP has gotten a little better because people rarely 4Gate anymore, but it's still down the list as far as entertainment goes. ZvZ can be exciting because it's a very fragile matchup and there's almost always something happening, but meh.
AdventureRacing
Member
I really enjoy every matchup right now. The only one that i think needs a lot of work is PvT but even it can be fun at times.
I just don't feel it's advancing fast enough with the foundation it has to work with.
This isn't the same environment BW had. Everyone can watch games and replays of nearly everyone, at least at top level. There is a much larger internet community, more open analysis, etc. People understand the basis of what units can be capable of based on previous games and BW.
At the end of the day it's not as enjoyable to watch at a pro level because I keep seeing things I know can be drastically improved on. Supernova vs Happy was a rare game which had some real nice markings of a stylistic player playing his game and forcing something on his opponent. That was a good game to watch. Most of the games though, are just so lacking in engagements or pressure. It's just getting a good position for an engagement and clicking off smart casting because stuff dies so fast.
I know it will get better. Micro and positioning and multitasking are the most obvious aspects because of the ease of macro. Yet there are still so many terrible engagements at a pro level. That should not be happening.
TheThunder
Member
ZvZ is terrible because roach/infestor is the most boring thing you can see, FG totally kills any sort of momentum in the game, reminds of the breaker system from MK9... bleh
If it somehow avoids that, then it's a pretty fun match up now days.
If it somehow avoids that, then it's a pretty fun match up now days.
OrangeYouGlad
Banned
Work and laziness. I also don't really participate in Toronto GAF stuff, so it would be awkward.
I don't know, this might be true, but I found if I skip colossi, out upgrade them and pump out enough immos with aggressive stalker play then I can usually out perform the colossi crap.
Blink stalkers, phoenix or chargelot archon openers?
PvP is unique because literally every tech path is viable and every unit can be built without being 'wrong'. 200/200 compositions could have any unit as part of them. Even carriers are viable in the matchup!
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
so its like zvz but slower?
