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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT4| Everyone Else Would Beat Catspajamas

P

PhoenixDark

Banned
On one hand this seems ridiculous, on the other Naniwa is such a POS perhaps this needs to happen. To be perfectly honest, there was no way he'd last in Code S past January anyway, so letting him keep the seed would make sense. Like it or not, he earned the spot. Of course, he also broke rules, so this could be compared to an athlete getting banned from a playoff game over rule violation in the final regular season game. In short, there are arguments on both sides but I'm not going to defend Naniwa. Maybe this is what it takes to make him realize he needs to grow the fuck up. If all he cares about is winning tournaments, his behavior will change. If it doesn't change we'll know his supporter's main defense argument is not valid.

While Idra and myself are both popular zergs who have played in front of thousands of viewers, I don't know his true feelings. That being said, I can't help but wonder how he feels about being given a Code S spot as opposed to earning it. He's an honest guy, and I doubt he'd say his play is on Code S level right now.


edit: hmmm
1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Code S Seed.
2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was supposed to be one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed
3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation using the excuse that it's an invitation.
Click to expand...

Ok, maybe Naniwa didn't earn the spot afterall
 
H

Holden

Member
PhoenixDark said:
On one hand this seems ridiculous, on the other Naniwa is such a POS perhaps this needs to happen. To be perfectly honest, there was no way he'd last in Code S past January anyway, so letting him keep the seed would make sense. Like it or not, he earned the spot. Of course, he also broke rules, so this could be compared to an athlete getting banned from a playoff game over rule violation in the final regular season game. In short, there are arguments on both sides but I'm not going to defend Naniwa. Maybe this is what it takes to make him realize he needs to grow the fuck up. If all he cares about is winning tournaments, his behavior will change. If it doesn't change we'll know his supporter's main defense argument is not valid.

While Idra and myself are both popular zergs who have played in front of thousands of viewers, I don't know his true feelings. That being said, I can't help but wonder how he feels about being given a Code S spot as opposed to earning it. He's an honest guy, and I doubt he'd say his play is on Code S level right now.
Click to expand...

after his whole mlg performence, he would stay there easily
 
D

Dooraven

Member
PhoenixDark said:
On one hand this seems ridiculous, on the other Naniwa is such a POS perhaps this needs to happen. To be perfectly honest, there was no way he'd last in Code S past January anyway, so letting him keep the seed would make sense. Like it or not, he earned the spot. Of course, he also broke rules, so this could be compared to an athlete getting banned from a playoff game over rule violation in the final regular season game. In short, there are arguments on both sides but I'm not going to defend Naniwa. Maybe this is what it takes to make him realize he needs to grow the fuck up. If all he cares about is winning tournaments, his behavior will change. If it doesn't change we'll know his supporter's main defense argument is not valid.

While Idra and myself are both popular zergs who have played in front of thousands of viewers, I don't know his true feelings. That being said, I can't help but wonder how he feels about being given a Code S spot as opposed to earning it. He's an honest guy, and I doubt he'd say his play is on Code S level right now.


edit: hmmm


Ok, maybe Naniwa didn't earn the spot afterall
Click to expand...

Rofl Pheonix, anyway yeah this stuff is getting too ridicculous now, so many contradictary statements.

I think we can all agree that Naniwa needs to grow up however.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
PhoenixDark said:
On one hand this seems ridiculous, on the other Naniwa is such a POS perhaps this needs to happen. To be perfectly honest, there was no way he'd last in Code S past January anyway, so letting him keep the seed would make sense. Like it or not, he earned the spot. Of course, he also broke rules, so this could be compared to an athlete getting banned from a playoff game over rule violation in the final regular season game. In short, there are arguments on both sides but I'm not going to defend Naniwa. Maybe this is what it takes to make him realize he needs to grow the fuck up. If all he cares about is winning tournaments, his behavior will change. If it doesn't change we'll know his supporter's main defense argument is not valid.

While Idra and myself are both popular zergs who have played in front of thousands of viewers, I don't know his true feelings. That being said, I can't help but wonder how he feels about being given a Code S spot as opposed to earning it. He's an honest guy, and I doubt he'd say his play is on Code S level right now.
Click to expand...

htf5U.png
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
ksan said:
You mean control based on completely arbitrary criteria not decided beforehand?
Click to expand...
yes.

i cant think of anything where a company/person does not retain the ability to remove someone for whatever reason at whatever time. it would be silly to waive that.
 
K

ksan

Member
Pandaman said:
yes.
Click to expand...

In that case I find your opinion in this matter ridiculous.
edit: too fast :(

i cant think of anything where a company/person does not retain the ability to remove someone for whatever reason at whatever time. it would be silly to waive that.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how that would override your contractual obligation to do something.
 
D

Dooraven

Member
This is getting utterly riddiculous:
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Click to expand...

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294943

Argh, Gom are being completley flip flop on this, first it was a seed, then it was an invite and now it's back to a seed? ugh.
 
K

Keikaku

Member
Q8D3vil said:
btw, does anyone here pay for gsl beside me hazard and thethunder ?
Click to expand...
wat

I've paid for every ad-supported option, every season and almost every event. The only one that I skipped was AoL and this Blizzard Cup because of my illness. I needed the money to help pay my copay.
 
Q

Q8D3vil

Member
the funny part is that quantic didn't release any statement so far.
wat

I've paid for every ad-supported option, every season and almost every event. The only one that I skipped was AoL and this Blizzard Cup because of my illness. I needed the money to help pay my copay.
Click to expand...
damn :(
get well soon man
 
Z

zoukka

Member
GOM has its tongue deep in paying viewers asses. What a fucking insightful opinion from them about e-sports.

pirates.
swedish pirates the both of ya.
Click to expand...

Did you know that in some nordic countries we actually have a "pirate party"?
 
D

Dooraven

Member
Tyler's opinion
i dont know what punishing naniwa by revoking the code S spot he earned accomplishes that couldn't be accomplished in any other way.

i have already discussed this issue with a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people and one of the points that is pretty much universally agreed upon is that the organization running the competition is in the best position to prevent this from happening. they prevent it from happening by removing any possibility for inconsequential games and by making sure players know in advance that they will be required to try their hardest in every match in order to participate in their event. the most effective way of preventing it is certainly not making an example out of the guy who did it ignorantly. no one has ever suggested that.
gomtv decides to act on a very vague rule with a very severe punishment, why? naniwa's offense was not clearly defined going into the tournament and there was no hint at what the punishment would be at all. i can't read the original korean, so i can't speak with complete confidence, but it seems to me like the application of the rule they cite is quite a stretch based on the translation. and they just make up a punishment when someone breaks it. they're very far removed from proper and effective use of a system of rules and penalties. they certainly were not compelled by their own rules to do what they did. so using this rule is an excuse to punish him.

what this move accomplishes business-wise is to make everyone working with them fear them. if you do anything that they don't expect, anything that they weren't clear on or didn't bring up at all, and it works against them, then you should expect a very severe response from them. even if they set you up to do something that's bad for them, they'll still not say anything beforehand and if you go ahead and do something that's bad for them, they retaliate harshly.

imo the standard good business philosophy is to cover your ass as much as possible. and when a business fails to do so, it minimizes damages and learns and fixes the problem for the future. if you are the big kid on the block and you wanna be a bully, then yeah you can be careless and when something goes wrong, don't admit fault and then slap the other guy down and make everyone hate him. if they really think that's optimal, then i'll admit that i don't know everything they know about their own business, so i can't press that too hard. all i can say is it's very improbable that that is optimal. and even if it is optimal for their own business, it's not optimal for the industry. so even if you do want to shield them with "they're just doing what they think is best for their business" i still lose 3 respect points for them.

if they owned up to their mistake and stood by naniwa, then i think this is a situation where it's quite possible to use propaganda (not in an evil deceptive way, but legitimate propaganda to get the masses to understand your decision and agree with it) to make themselves look good, make naniwa look good (which they want because he's in their league and he's one of the few foreigners, extra valuable to them) and make their league look stronger than ever heading into the new year. but no, they're apparently incapable of that (either because of incompetence or emotions).

edit: apparently the conduct rule wasnt used in the official explanation. if that's true, then it's even worse. they went from having a rule that, when stretched, barely is reasonable, to having no rule and just a spontaneous penalty.
Click to expand...
 
D

Dooraven

Member
Quantic's Apology:

A formal letter to GOMTV and the StarCraft community from Quantic and NaNiwa


It isn't often that a relatively new team is thrust into controversy in such a significant way. Of course, one never asks or hopes to find themself in this sort of situation, as a team, as a player, or as a manager.

This is why we feel it both necessary and appropriate, as a team, and as a family, to sincerely and deeply apologize for the events that occurred during NaNiwa’s final match against NesTea on Day 2 of the Blizzcup 2011 Invitational Tournament, hosted at the GOM Studio in Seoul, South Korea.

As a team we value the fundamental principals of competitive pursuit: fair play, on a level playing field, where the rules are well understood, and the objectives clearly known. We believe in this case that those objectives were clearly known, but the pursuit was not proper, and this offended many fans, players, and officials.

We want to make it clear that we do not condone NaNiwa’s actions during his match against NesTea. We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best. NaNiwa will continue to play for Quantic, and we will also continue to stand by NaNiwa as he learns and grows as a result of his mistakes.

While we respect and understand GOMTV’s existing decision, we implore GOMTV to consider giving NaNiwa a “second chance” to fulfill his dream to compete in GSL Code S in a future season. For fans, we ask only for your acceptance of our apology, on behalf of our player, and consider offering your patience, understanding, and perhaps your renewed faith in the future with and for NaNiwa.

NaNiwa’s statement and apology:

“After I played and lost 3 incredible close games, I was extremely upset with myself. I prepared a lot and wanted to show everyone – especially my Swedish fans – that I had what it takes to beat the best. Instead, I let everyone down.

I wasn’t thinking clearly, and acted unprofessionally. At first I didn’t realize how big of a deal it really was, but when I saw how much everyone wanted to see my game against NesTea, I felt terrible and truly began to realize what I had done. I first thought that the match against NesTea was meaningless, but now I realize that it really did mean a lot, and that there’s no such thing as a “meaningless game” in eSports.

I am sincerely sorry to all my fans that looked forward to our rematch. I had something very special prepared just for him, and I’m sure he had something just as special planned himself. To all Korean fans and pro-gamers, especially NesTea, I am so sorry if I offended you by doing what I did. When we meet again in a future match, you can all count on it being a match worth your while. I also want to apologize to Mr Chae, the directors, the casters and all the staff at GOMTV. I now understand how my poor decision disrespected all the hard work they put into running the GSL. I really hope that what I’ve done won’t damage eSports or GOMTV any further.

For a long time, I never really played this game for anyone else other than myself. Now, I realize that it involves so much more than that. I’m not alone playing from my home anymore; there are so many people watching my every game, and wanting to see me perform at my best. I don’t just play for myself anymore, but for all the fans of StarCraft 2 and eSports. Clearly, being a pro-gamer involves a lot more than I initially thought.”

------------------------------------------------------------

QUANTIC ON TWITTER: http://www.twitter.com/QuanticGaming
QUANTIC ON FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/QuanticGaming
WEBSITE: http://www.QuanticGaming.com/

BUSINESS/PRESS INQUIRIES: laxx@quanticgaming.com
Click to expand...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295023
 
M

Mairu

Member
V_Arnold said:
Luck had no part in that. Hard work did.
Click to expand...

+1

I don't agree with GOMTV's response but Naniwa & Quantic's pr is well written and well thought out. I hope Naniwa doesn't lose any motivation to continue his career as a progamer because I really appreciate his attitude towards becoming a champion.
 
D

Dooraven

Member
Dear GOMTV.net users,


Time really flies - we have already reached the Semifinals of the Blizzard Cup. We wish to conclude a great year of StarCraft II with the Blizzard Cup and hope everyone was able to enjoy some of the great matches we've had so far.


There seems to be great confusion regarding an incident involving NaNiWa that took place on the second day of Blizzard Cup. We would like to clarify this matter and hereby announce our official stance towards the incident.


1. GSL's stance toward the NaNiWa incident


Not only progamers, but professional athletes in every sports prove and showcase their skill through the game and by doing so entertain their fans. Since professional athletes do this for a living, competing in tournaments is a means to make money in order to sustain themselves. While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans. We believe that the reason why so many people are such avid fans of baseball, soccer or e-sports has next to nothing to do with money. Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.


A lot of people share the opinion that NaNiWa has not broken any rules and should therefore not receive any punishment.


It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.


We do however not doubt the sincerity of NaNiWa's competitive spirit. NaNiWa has come the long way to Korea just to compete in the GSL after all. We know very well how hard it is and the determination it takes to come to a foreign country and take the challenge to compete.


We want to make clear that NaNiWa will not be banned from the GSL for his actions. We will however revoke his candidacy for a Code S seed, which means that he will have to requalify for the GSL.





2. Doesn't that mean that the GSL is depriving NaNiWa of a Code S seed that he rightfully earned?


It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.


We have introduced our new format for the 2012 GSL Tour a while ago, which includes changes to the way international seeds are being given out. Since we have not explained these changes to the seeds in detail yet, this misunderstanding seems to have arisen.


In 2012 the GSL will have 2 Code S sponsor seeds. These seeds will be determined by outstanding results in international tournaments. In 2011 the GSL schedule luckily matched very well with MLG's schedule. For this reason we were able to introduce a system that allowed high-placing players at MLG to compete in the following GSL season in a regular manner. In 2012 we will again do our best to provide a schedule that matches well with MLG and other international leagues. As the GSL format has changed and a season now lasts for significantly longer, it will this time however not be possible to perfectly match our schedule with MLG's. Apart from that we would also like to consider players of other remarkable tournaments and have therefore introduced this change to our international seeding system.


NaNiWa has been considered as one of the players to receive a Code S seed for the 2012 GSL Season 1 as a part of the this new seeding system due to his recent impressive results. Other players under consideration were IdrA (MLG Orlando 4th, IEM Guangzhou) and Sen (Blizzcon Battle.net Invitational 3rd) among others. During this phase of consideration aforementioned incident happened, which led us to the decision to remove NaNiWa from the top of the list of considered players. This is not to be seen as a direct punishment resulting from the incident, the incident did however understandably have an influence on NaNiWa's position on the list of candidates.


What we would like to ask from all of the GSL fans is to not simply see this incident as just a simple meaningless single game between NaNiWa and NesTea. The act of purposefully losing a match, whatever the underlying reasons may be, does always also have a psychological effect on the other players. By tolerating such behavior, purposefully losing might be deemed as a legitimate action and we might see more of such matches in the future, which is something that surely neither the fans nor the players would appreciate.


Both Korean as well as international fans are important to us. We hope that no one gets the wrong picture and believes that NaNiWa is being treated disadvantageously because he is a foreigner. On the contrary, if a Korean had been involved in a similar incident, it is possible that a much harsher reaction would have followed. It is also very likely that the player's team would have taken firm action before the GSL could have even reacted to it.


The GSL is a tournament that is open for fans and players from all over the world. We are lucky to live in the internet era, which allows us to easily connect and share our passions. At the same time, we have to live with the time difference and can experience an interesting mix but sometimes also clash of cultures. We would be very happy to be able to always satisfy everyone, but unfortunately that is not realistically possible. We would like everyone to know that we tried to make a fair decision to the best of our ability in this unfortunate situation.


We promise that we will work hard to provide tournament formats that will lead players to do their best in every match and to create a GSL that will allow fans to enjoy and experience the competition as something that has more to it than just professionals trying to make a living.


We wish NaNiWa all the best for his future endeavors as a progamer.



Thank you.


GOMTV.net
Click to expand...

LOL GOM still can't admit that they stuffed up with this portion already can they? If this was even true how come neither MLG, Complexity nor ESFI knew about this wow.
 
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