The problem with that, and believe me I don't want to play devil's advocate, is that people say that kind of thing when they're arrested all the time. Watch Cops and you'll always see someone saying "I can't breathe" or "you're breaking my arm". Usually drunks. Of course that's not what was happening here, and police should always be on the lookout if the suspect is in genuine distress. My problem with this situation is more that it didn't warrant a violent response from police AT ALL. The guy wasn't actually resisting, he wasn't wanted for a violent crime, and not to speak ill of the dead, but a guy that big wasn't going to get away from those police. So why was that degree of force necessary? That question right there should have been enough to indict the officer.
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Staten Island Grand Jury Does Not Indict in Eric Garner Case
- Thread starter Syriel
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The problem with that, and believe me I don't want to play devil's advocate, is that people say that kind of thing when they're arrested all the time. Watch Cops and you'll always see someone saying "I can't breathe" or "you're breaking my arm". Usually drunks. Of course that's not what was happening here, and police should always be on the lookout if the suspect is in genuine distress. My problem with this situation is more that it didn't warrant a violent response from police AT ALL. The guy wasn't actually resisting, he wasn't wanted for a violent crime, and not to speak ill of the dead, but a guy that big wasn't going to get away from those police. So why was that degree of force necessary? That question right there should have been enough to indict the officer.
"Resisting" and "Non-complaince" have become such broad categories of behaviours that it really loses any meaning to me. I could be eaising my arm to scratch an itch on my neck or sneeze in slightly peculiar way and someone somewhere will construe that as some sort of act of defiance.
If someone speaks out for being harrased or unfairly detained or losing the ability to take in oxygen that is what it is full stop.
Resisting arrest is such awful blanket word to victim blame when the people in the position of power exercised their power to abuse the disenfranchised.
Fuck these publicly sanctioned murders.
If someone speaks out for being harrased or unfairly detained or losing the ability to take in oxygen that is what it is full stop.
Resisting arrest is such awful blanket word to victim blame when the people in the position of power exercised their power to abuse the disenfranchised.
Fuck these publicly sanctioned murders.
Victory Red
Member
Right, except "I can't breathe" is the first thing that most people say when brought down to the ground by cops. Watching any episode of Cops will show that pretty quickly. So you cannot blame the officer for not taking the statement by the victim seriously.
I haven't watched the video, I dont' like watching people die. I feel for the victim and his family and I'm sure the cop was more agressive than he needed to be.
ButI can't help but feel, in these types of situations, that in the police officers line of work, if you deal with everyone in a kinder/gentler manner, you are gonna get your self fucked up and/or killed. You are on the streets dealing with people who are breaking the law and trying to make a living. Some have warrants. Some absolutely CANNOT go back to jail so they do whatever they have to do. So this is where I sympathize with police officers.
RACISM
Exactly, it's about decreasing the number of incidents. Decrease the number of incidents, it changes police mentality, and then it's easier to get rid of the bad apples. And Instead of trying to sort between real and false complaints, the evidence will speak for itself and will force action.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Combination of people (jury) thinking cops are infallible and just trying to do their jobs, prosecutors having a conflict of interest and not actually wanting to press charges and using the Grand Jury as a scapegoat and good old racism.
Vicetrailia
Member
That it does. To have a more discerning policy in how power is used/unlocked according to a common sense (and not super rigid) tier structure. To me anything very physical (forced take down, taser, pepper spray) is excessive at the moment he didn't comply, and policy should have something to say about that (rather than it being almost wide open).
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
I don't understand this at all. This sounds ridiculous to me.
I think this goes beyond race in my opinion. If it was a black cop and white guy dying, it's be a completely different story. If it were two blacks or two whites, it doesn't matter.
The cop using the illegal choke is the issue. If the black dude just got handcuffed and put in a patty wagon, nothing would have been said. It's super unfortuante the guy died for a petty offense, but the cop getting off free after obviously doing an illegal choke to take down a perp, that's the issue.
I've seen countless videos of cops going overboard with their power, no matter the skin color, they go over board.
Anyone remember the college kid getting tased during the John Kerry lecture at some college? The kid was harmless, though he was resisting, all they needed to do was carry him outside, instead they tased the crap out of him...
I'm not a cop, so I can't really make judgements, it's not fair to, but the illegal choke is the ticker. It's illegal, thus the cop should be dealt with. I couldn't care less about the skin color.
The cop using the illegal choke is the issue. If the black dude just got handcuffed and put in a patty wagon, nothing would have been said. It's super unfortuante the guy died for a petty offense, but the cop getting off free after obviously doing an illegal choke to take down a perp, that's the issue.
I've seen countless videos of cops going overboard with their power, no matter the skin color, they go over board.
Anyone remember the college kid getting tased during the John Kerry lecture at some college? The kid was harmless, though he was resisting, all they needed to do was carry him outside, instead they tased the crap out of him...
I'm not a cop, so I can't really make judgements, it's not fair to, but the illegal choke is the ticker. It's illegal, thus the cop should be dealt with. I couldn't care less about the skin color.
Featheredkitten
Banned
The police have increasingly separated themselves from the people they are supposed to protect and serve. They see themselves as defenders but with nothing to defend the people against they end up seeing the people as outsiders and one homogenous group. this creates ingroups/outgroups. Only the people like you are seen as real people, anyone not like you is just a bunch of stereotypes. Black people look different than white cops so they are targeted as the most obvious outsiders.
The people just see themselves being treated unfairly and don't know why, when they are doing nothing wrong (see this EXACT CASE for an example). Constant harassment from the police drives the people to get frustrated...this leads to cops seeing ANY resistance as a confrontation. This in addition to their uniforms becoming increasingly militarized allows individualization to occur. The power inherent in being a cop influences their need to control as well.
Unfortunately this will continue to occur until the police make the steps to become a part of the community again, to talk to the people they police and stop seeing everyone different from them as a homogenous group who are ALL thugs and ALL out to challenge their authority. I do not see this happening any time soon. Which is tragic, I'm sure you'll agree.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think skin colour is one the major factors in stuff like this.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'm not particularly interested in hypotheticals about parallel universes where this could potentially happen.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This is just fucking ridiculous ... how can you even justify this line of thinking ?
As a non-american, non-white, brown male, this shit makes me worry for my life if I ever visit the US.
Narpas Sword0
Member
They were arresting him for a nonviolent crime and he was verbally, not physically, engaging them. Then he was killed by them. How the fuck could you sympathize with anyone but him? He is DEAD
Especially when we are talking about a cop performing a choke hold.
There is a double standard with many things in society.
Watch the fucking video. Jesus Christ.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
So you don't know that he was saying "I can't breathe" repeatedly in a manner where it was clear that he was struggling to breathe and slowly dying.
Don't generalize if you're going to IGNORE THE FUCKING FACTS.
You're seriously using "Cops" as a fucking defense for this shit?
Racism is a problem but bad cops going on power trips is a seperate problem as well.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/3/justice-dillon-taylor-after-white-utah-man-fatally/ Same Universe.
While there is definitely institutional racism between law enforcement and the black community, it can't just be boiled down to that. If it had been a white defendant that had died, the outcome would have been the same. Prosecutors simply don't go after cops and the police unions makes it far more likely that a law enforcement group will circle the wagons around bad cops instead of purging them from their ranks. Until this system is overhauled, local communities will continue to live in fear of police.
Watch the video before making ignorant comments like this.
Funny how that story will NEVER make the mainstream news. If it weren't for your post, I would have never seen that story.
I rest my case, skin color doesn't matter. It's power trips. Not ruling racism out 100%, but there are good cops and bad cops, and the bad ones do have power trips.
But that's always been the case. I think we're at the point where it's simply getting more exposure and possibly more people that do care. Just not enough people to make a difference to American's ingrained hatred toward black people.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It's also a lot of the newer generations which at this point are fed up and refuse to accept it any longer. Stuff like this impedes our progress as a civilization and society. It needs to end or we're just going to continue to relive the evils of the past.
I personally don't want to bring a child into a world where these kinds of racial prejudices exist (especially being a brown man in America post-9/11). I want the world to change for my children's sake.
Simply Sarah
Member
OK, I concede my statement wasn't helpful and was hyperbolic. That said, I'm extremely tired of people trying to completely ignore the race factor in things. Yes, overuse of force by cops in general is a huge issue, but it's also directed in an extremely disproportionate manner against people of colour and especially black men (and kids). That can't be ignored.
See? Like this shit below:
Good article on this situation from the New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/new-proposal-provide-grand-juries-eyes
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/new-proposal-provide-grand-juries-eyes
Big Baybee
Member
If you haven't watched the fucking video then what are you commenting on?
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Well then, climb back atop your horse and trot on outta here. You have zero frame of reference and certainly no ground to stand on to lecture anyone in this thread.
My responses in bold.
Yeah, I suppose I meant as a non american I'm starting to see stuff like this more and more on the news rather than documentaries and history books.
I can agree with that. I don't want to give the impression that this is just power trips. I just think that racism needs to be addressed and getting down to the root cause of power trips or what training US officers are receiving that make them escalate to executioner so quickly.
We will never know (probably) how the deliberations in the Grand Jury went but we do know a few things about human psychology.
Featheredkitten did a great job of explaining it above but I'll do a quick boil down too. Those jurors went into that room with biases, some that they may not even know of exist. Studies show that unknown racial bias exists in much greater numbers then anyone would care to admit. Just look at resume/hiring studies. So these jurors walk in with their unknown/known biases and are shown a video of a large black man surrounded by police. With just a bit of priming it wouldn't be too difficult to get a no indictment call.
While I do agree there is more going on here than just racism, it's a huge component and influenced every single part of the process from the escalation of violence against Garner to the treatment by the media to the Grand Jury proceedings.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
I don't believe you. I've seen "Cops" too. I know you can breathe just fine. Your sly tricks are just for the cameras.
Sigh.
This isn't even legal, though. You cannot choke out a non violent non threatening suspect for non compliance and questioning his arrest. This is at the very least a homicide, by
NYC Penal code said:
Or they could've even gone for B)
NYC penal code said:
While I think that its self evident that they were criminally negligent in the way the officers choked out the non violent man begging for his life, you could also argue that they were reckless in the way they piled on him till he choked to death. Both of these are felonies but this case is apparently not even good enough to go to trial. America ladies and gentlemen.
EnlightenedMint
Member
Today is also the 45th anniversary of the assassination of Fred Hampton. He was sleeping when the police raided his apartment and completely riddled his room with bullets. http://www.telesurtv.net/english/an...red-Hampton-45-Years-Later-20141203-0017.html
Beelzebufo
Banned
So do we know why the jury didn't indict? Like yeah, we all saw the video, but what was the reason they gave? Is it because he didn't use an official choke hold or whatever, so he couldn't know it would kill someone with asthma?
Actually the chokehold is not illegal, just against NYPD rules and regulations. But I agree. Unlike the Ferguson case where I thought the grand jury ultimately made the right decision, here I think there has been injustice and Garner's murderer walks.
shadowsdarknes
Member
If he's put in a choke hold, what is he supposed to do?
How was he expected to respond?
He was brought to the ground almost immediately due to the momentum of his choker and the other officers assuring he couldn't move forward.
His arms and hands were completely open. No swinging, flailing, or anything.
The man is down on the ground not resisting anymore.
I can see the "resisting arrest part" when they tried to grab his arms. But he kept his arms to himself. You don't get to use deadly fucking force just because a man isn't complying with you.
If that was an elderly stubborn white man who wasn't interested in being arrested, they'd have been far more reasonable. But large and black? He must be a volatile hulk that we have to incapacitate his ability to breathe or else he's going to hurt us all!
How was he expected to respond?
He was brought to the ground almost immediately due to the momentum of his choker and the other officers assuring he couldn't move forward.
His arms and hands were completely open. No swinging, flailing, or anything.
The man is down on the ground not resisting anymore.
I can see the "resisting arrest part" when they tried to grab his arms. But he kept his arms to himself. You don't get to use deadly fucking force just because a man isn't complying with you.
If that was an elderly stubborn white man who wasn't interested in being arrested, they'd have been far more reasonable. But large and black? He must be a volatile hulk that we have to incapacitate his ability to breathe or else he's going to hurt us all!
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Racial bias, a failure to understand the situation, a willful ignorance of the facts presented, or some of them just thought cops are infallible. It could be a number of things, but it's unacceptable.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Who knows really, but now the blood is on the jury's hands. Just as much as the prosecutor's.
Also this: I thought Garner's death reminded me of something from a popular film.
Smdh.
Narpas Sword0
Member
It's a group of people voting yes or no, they don't issue a press release
shadowsdarknes
Member
I want to know the name of the man who issued the choke hold.
While he may not have committed a crime, he should be fired from his job and should become unhirable.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Hey, I was thinking of that too! But it was much worse in real life than the movie. Even the situation carefully set up to show this didn't get as ridiculous as real life.
From what I understand, the prosecution was tasked with trying to prove malicious intent. Meaning they were trying to prove that the officer intended to hurt/kill Eric Garner which obviously wasn't the case. It was an accident caused by blatant negligence. I've asked twice in this thread why they tried to charge him with that instead of involuntary manslaughter and no one has been able to provide insight.
In summary: Everybody knows shit fuck.
Just look for the guy waving at the camera after he finished the job. The name is in the OP.
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