• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Street Fighter V |OT3| Frauds Among Us

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

HiResDes

Member
Zangief is still scary to me as a Cammy player, but I have no idea what I'm doing really or how to keep him out the entire match.
 
Ã

『Inaba Resident』

Banned
I think the startup increase in Zangief's SPD makes sense when you look at everything else he has.You have to respect his buttons more in this game and they have tons of uses (stopping projectiles, going over lows while moving forward, taking a hit of armor) and he also has an air SPD now. You make people afraid to move, jump, press buttons or whatever in fear of being clipped or air grabbed and then you scoop them up. If his SPD had IV levels of startup, I think it'd be a bit ridiculous.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
KingBroly said:
It's listed on the...content timeline, or what ever it was.
Click to expand...

no names tho

VSlyaUZ.jpg
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
『Inaba Resident』;199009242 said:
I think the startup increase in Zangief's SPD makes sense when you look at everything else he has.
Click to expand...
Yeah, ppl forget about the air SPD in this game.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
ElFly said:
The argument of "it was in SF4 therefore it was broken" holds no water because, again, this is a property of SPD that existed in previous SF games. If you did unsafe shit near gief, you got grabbed. Now the grab is so slow that you can just keep your pressure going.

Before, you could do wakeup SPD without much problem, now you need the CA for that. The equivalent argument would be taking away wakeup shoryuken from Ryu just because that existed in SF4.

Grabs as a threat still exist, but let's not pretend the startup frames aren't a huge nerf for him.
Click to expand...

It wasn't doing "unsafe shit." The startup was 2 frames. It was stupid as fuck. He could grab you with SPD out of damn near everything on block or between strings.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Ferrio said:
Well we could always decrease the startup, but make it crush counterable like DPs.
Click to expand...

What if they kept the startup, but you could combo off of regular SPDs.

As in not from a cancel but a link.

Since they're 5 frame startup they wouldn't combo from anything but a counterhit from a few moves
 
R

Reizo Ryuu

Member
ElFly said:
The argument of "it was in SF4 therefore it was broken" holds no water because, again, this is a property of SPD that existed in previous SF games. If you did unsafe shit near gief, you got grabbed. Now the grab is so slow that you can just keep your pressure going.

Before, you could do wakeup SPD without much problem, now you need the CA for that. The equivalent argument would be taking away wakeup shoryuken from Ryu just because that existed in SF4.

Grabs as a threat still exist, but let's not pretend the startup frames aren't a huge nerf for him.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, you couldn't tech throws in SF2, I think you could only press a button to air recover to reduce damage in super turbo. Actually escaping a throw didn't become a thing until SF3.
Not being able to escape throws would make spd useless if it didn't beat normal throws.
SF4 fucked up by having throw techs, but also having spd beating throws. The reward for a command grab should be that you can't escape it, not that it just flat out beats everything else

Also, spd was 5 frames as well in SF2, not the ridiculous 2 in sf4.
 
C

Crab Milk Mickey

Member
ElFly said:
The argument of "it was in SF4 therefore it was broken" holds no water because, again, this is a property of SPD that existed in previous SF games. If you did unsafe shit near gief, you got grabbed. Now the grab is so slow that you can just keep your pressure going.

Before, you could do wakeup SPD without much problem, now you need the CA for that. The equivalent argument would be taking away wakeup shoryuken from Ryu just because that existed in SF4.

Grabs as a threat still exist, but let's not pretend the startup frames aren't a huge nerf for him.
Click to expand...
No, that's the thing about the SPD. What you're describing wasn't as prevalent in most other mainline Street Fighters when you compare to how Zangief was in IV, which again was an atypical take on him. Doesn't help you're seemingly also looking at it in isolation, not taking into account that other trademark special attacks (and sometimes even normals) have similarly been 'nerfed' across the board on a character-to-character basis to keep them in line with the tweaked SPD.

In V he has other sufficient options to prevent people from putting in that kind of disadvantageous position, so this complaint about his SPD is a moot point.
 
E

emag

Member
The Alpha series had standard teching. ST had teching, but it only softened throws rather than escaping entirely (timing was tech-like, not air recovery).
 
Mediking

Mediking

Member
I....I.... I'm actually getting better with Cammy... I can't believe I'm saying this but this morning... I have a 5 game winning streak in Ranked. I got Bronze. I got some trophies...

Man, this is great!
 
E

ElFly

Member
Reizo Ryuu said:
Well, to be fair, you couldn't tech throws in SF2, I think you could only press a button to air recover to reduce damage in super turbo. Actually escaping a throw didn't become a thing until SF3.
Not being able to escape throws would make spd useless if it didn't beat normal throws.
SF4 fucked up by having throw techs, but also having spd beating throws. The reward for a command grab should be that you can't escape it, not that it just flat out beats everything else
Click to expand...

It should beat some things tho; right now it can be stuffed by way too many moves. Even reducing one frame the startup would help.

You can rely on the bigger range, but that leaves you with LP SPD.

mbpm1 said:
Whoops read the wrong column. That would be broken then
Click to expand...

Remember that it would need to be _linked_. If you did it wrong, it is a cancel, and you are now liable for 52 frames, because grabs don't work on hitstun. If you missed the window, people can jump. It'd be basically a 1 frame link in a game that did its most to remove them. And other links just don't come out if you do them too early, they don't leave you completely open for a full second.
 
R

Reizo Ryuu

Member
emag said:
The Alpha series had standard teching. ST had teching, but it only softened throws rather than escaping entirely (timing was tech-like, not air recovery).
Click to expand...

Not really, only a few throws did no damage if you tech'd them in alpha, that didn't become the standard until SF3

ElFly said:
It should beat some things tho; right now it can be stuffed by way too many moves. Even reducing one frame the startup would help.

You can rely on the bigger range, but that leaves you with LP SPD.
Click to expand...

A frame faster startup means it will beat a regular throw 100% of the time (when done at the same time obv), the bigger range does mean it will essentially beat a lot of things because it can just grab the hurtbox of an attack as it's starting up.

The (ridiculously) large range of lp SPD is a major asset for gief imo.
 
S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
Lounges fixed, thank GOD.

'Search for a lounge' is so pointless. You can't specify a connection and by the time you click on any of them, they're all full.
 
E

ElFly

Member
Crab Milk Mickey said:
No, that's the thing about the SPD. What you're describing wasn't as prevalent in most other mainline Street Fighters when you compare to how Zangief was in IV, which again was an atypical take on him. Doesn't help you're seemingly also looking at it in isolation, not taking into account that other trademark special attacks (and sometimes even normals) have similarly been 'nerfed' across the board on a character-to-character basis to keep them in line with the tweaked SPD.

In V he has other sufficient options to prevent people from putting in that kind of disadvantageous position, so this complaint about his SPD is a moot point.
Click to expand...

Again, shoryuken, as signature a move as they come, didn't miss its wakeup properties just because they gave Ryu a parry.

Iron Muscle is good, sure, but it doesn't make up for the properties lost by SPD.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
ElFly said:
It should beat some things tho; right now it can be stuffed by way too many moves. Even reducing one frame the startup would help.

You can rely on the bigger range, but that leaves you with LP SPD.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't "beat" anything. It shouldn't go through any moves. You should use that move on block to set up your offense. You make your opponent guess and read what you're going to do, and you force your will on them. SPD should be used as a tool to punish people. Command grabs shouldn't do that. Command grabs should be used as a tool to promote your offense and expose an opponent's defensive tendencies.

It doesn't' get "stuffed" by anything. You're using the move when you're at a disadvantage in which anything without invincibility frames that is 5 frames or more would get beat regardless.
 
F

Ferrio

Banned
ElFly said:
Again, shoryuken, as signature a move as they come, didn't miss its wakeup properties just because they gave Ryu a parry.

Iron Muscle is good, sure, but it doesn't make up for the properties lost by SPD.
Click to expand...

They gave all those moves a huge drawback (crush counter), that's the sacrifice they made to keep it's original properties.
 
Shouta

Shouta

Member
mbpm1 said:
Whoops read the wrong column. That would be broken then
Click to expand...

It'd actually make Zangief a much more solid threat, IMO but I don't know how it would affect the game down the line.

5 Frame start-up actually hurts command grabs with the way the game is currently setup because it makes it harder for grapplers to dissuade folks from using buttons or some frame traps that are slightly negative.

A good example is LP Spinning Mixer for Rashid. He's -2 on it which in SF4 meant a punish but in SF5, it's unpunishable by grapplers because their fastest attack is 4 frames which loses because Rashid can just hit LK afterwards because it has a 3 frame start-up. Only Mika could stop it but at the cost of a trade because her jab is 3 frames. When you combine this with grappler buttons being slower in general, it's pretty rough. That's not taking into account hurtboxes and hitboxes either.

Birdie and Mika make out OK because they have certain strengths to compensate but Zangief kind of gets the short end of the stick.
 
E

ElFly

Member
Ferrio said:
They gave all those moves a huge drawback (crush counter), that's the sacrifice they made to keep it's original properties.
Click to expand...

While it doesn't get crush countered, SPD still goes through a loooong recovery animation on miss.

Which normally shouldn't happen, but you still can do it too soon (a concept that is anathema to every other move) and the move will come out during hitstun/blockstun.

Not saying that it should grab during either *stun, but certainly requires precaution, and, again, the recovery animation only became that long during V. IV was 52 for LP spd and less for the rest. Ok, not much less, but still less. Now it is a flat 52 frames across all versions, even EX.

Skilletor said:
It shouldn't "beat" anything. It shouldn't go through any moves. You should use that move on block to set up your offense. You make your opponent guess and read what you're going to do, and you force your will on them. SPD should be used as a tool to punish people. Command grabs shouldn't do that. Command grabs should be used as a tool to promote your offense and expose an opponent's defensive tendencies.

It doesn't' get "stuffed" by anything. You're using the move when you're at a disadvantage in which anything without invincibility frames that is 5 frames or more would get beat regardless.
Click to expand...

I am still confused by the whole 'spds should do this and also should not" of the first paragraph, but I am not convinced by this; it is ridiculous that Zangief has less chances to SPD someone the closer they are to them, cause when they are close, SPD can be interrupted by jabs and other moves. Right now the deadliest distance for Zangief is just around sweep, where quick moves cannot reach LP SPD but LP SPD can reach them -which I am sure some people will decry as unfair-. Right now Fierce SPD is a punish tool for CC, or a shenanigan tool for empty jumps and the like, which is not the case of other "signature" moves that were, supposedly, as nerfed as SPD.

Now, of course fierce spd has insane damage to compensate, but the point is that it leaves the move at a weird high-distance-only use.

Shouta said:
It'd actually make Zangief a much more solid threat, IMO but I don't know how it would affect the game down the line.

5 Frame start-up actually hurts command grabs with the way the game is currently setup because it makes it harder for grapplers to dissuade folks from using buttons or some frame traps that are slightly negative.

A good example is LP Spinning Mixer for Rashid. He's -2 on it which in SF4 meant a punish but in SF5, it's unpunishable by grapplers because their fastest attack is 4 frames which loses because Rashid can just hit LK afterwards because it has a 3 frame start-up. Only Mika could stop it but at the cost of a trade because her jab is 3 frames. When you combine this with grappler buttons being slower in general, it's pretty rough. That's not taking into account hurtboxes and hitboxes either.

Birdie and Mika make out OK because they have certain strengths to compensate but Zangief kind of gets the short end of the stick.
Click to expand...

In gral it should be 3 or 4 frames of start up. Maybe EX could be different, dunno. And yeah, he needs something to punish quick stuff. 4 would make it less vulnerable to jabs and the like, with the odd exception of characters with 3 frame jabs (which could be considered fair). But that's still doesn't solve the Rashid issue.

It could be fixed if Lariat had less start up. In fact, that'd fix a bunch of other problems with Zangief too.
 
L

LegendX48

Member
Teknopathetic said:
They don't know whether your connection is throttled or not. All they can tell you is how good your connection is to the person you're connected to, which is what the opponent's connection quality bar is for. In a way, the connection bar is also *your* connection bar.


They can't tell you that. Even if they had some servers out in the wild for you to ping, it'd only tell you how good your connection is to those servers and not to other players.
Click to expand...
Ucchedavāda;198976804 said:
You don't see the "other player's connection quality". What you see is the connection quality between you and that player, which is a product of the quality of your connection to your ISP, the quality of their connection to their ISP, and the quality of the connection between your respective ISPs going through any number of intermediates.

You could display some quality measure of your own connection by, for example, having the game ping Capcom's servers, but that is liable to be misleading. For example, being far from the nearest server, or having a poor quality route to said server, would result in your having a permanent "low quality" connection" even though your connections to your peers could be flawless. The best option would probably be to ping your ISP regularly, assuming that the game could reliably infer the IPs (via traceroute perhaps), that pings are not blocked, and that your ISP wouldn't mind having people constantly pinging their servers. It's not simple to accomplish in a reliable manner, and only gives you an incomplete picture at best.
Click to expand...
That's fair, never looked at other users connections as a basis for my own.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
That tweet is really making me think they're gunna delay it :/

I just want the shop Capcom, pls

If Alex isn't ready yet let him bake but the shop...
 
E

Edzi

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
That tweet is really making me think they're gunna delay it :/

I just want the shop Capcom, pls

If Alex isn't ready yet let him bake but the shop...
Click to expand...

Even if they do delay some parts of the update (like Alex) I have no doubt they'll release the majority of it in March.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
mnz said:
The ridiculous thing is that we are waiting for the announcement for a trailer for an update.
Click to expand...

I don't think there's gonna be a trailer. Probably announcement for the general time of release of the update.

EDIT: What's the point of a trailer anyway, since the people who are going to pay payed already, and the ones who won't will use their practically free FM to get Alex.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

US charges Gamestop short seller with fraud
Business
4
832
Buggy Loop replied
Street Fighter 6 has sold 4 million units worldwide
Sales-Age 2
63
3K
Futaleufu replied
The Electric Underground | Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is Peak Arcade Design | Why It Endures
Opinion Retro Trailer
8
871
NeverYouMind replied
‘Street Fighter’ Movie Lands March 2026 Release From Sony
News
32
2K
Giallo Corsa replied
Dale & Dawson Stationery Supplies (The Office Meets Among Us)
2
539
nikos replied
Top Bottom