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Street Fighter V |OTVII| New Generation - Connection To Haters Was Lost

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M

Mr. X

Member
mnz said:
Oh, rollback netcode is definitely heavy on the hardware. I was just thinking he was talking about ps360.
From how I understand it, the game has to remember several old game states and put them back into memory when rollback occurs. Not sure if it has to remember every frame, though. Maybe some programmer can dive deeper into it.

From an old interview:
Click to expand...
This is bullshit. GGPO doesn't care if it's 2D or 3D, it's code that tells a game how to handle inputs and save states. Examples are Skullgirls (everything is 3D, they are flat, handdrawn assests rendered in 3D) and Rising Thunder (the F2P fighter Cannons had up for a while). Namco used it in an arcade DBZ arena fighter.
 
Spuck-uk

Spuck-uk

Banned
King Awesome said:
This is why I suspect GGXrd uses delay-based netcode. They're shackled to the PS3 in order to get Japanese console sales and the game has to cut corners to run on that system already
Click to expand...

Xrd is delay based, tells you how many frames you're dropping, and lets you simulate lag in training mode, which is cute.

The problem with the rollback based netcode in SFV, is that it's one sided, so one player eats all of the rollback.


edit: Corrected, mixed terminology, nice spot mnz
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
3D game. Skullgirls.

Spuck-uk said:
Xrd is delay based, tells you how many frames you're dropping, and lets you simulate lag in training mode, which is cute.

The problem with the delay based netcode in SFV, is that it's one sided, so one player eats all of the delay.
Click to expand...
But...SFV's netcode is not delay based.

You are really confusing me here.

Mr. X said:
This is bullshit. GGPO doesn't care if it's 2D or 3D, it's code that tells a game how to handle inputs and save states. Examples are Skullgirls (everything is 3D, they are flat, handdrawn assests rendered in 3D) and Rising Thunder (the F2P fighter Cannons had up for a while). Namco used it in an arcade DBZ arena fighter.
Click to expand...
The amount of data is much bigger in 3D games even if the netcode does the same thing.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Mr. X said:
This is bullshit. GGPO doesn't care if it's 2D or 3D, it's code that tells a game how to handle inputs and save states. Examples are Skullgirls (everything is 3D, they are flat, handdrawn assests rendered in 3D) and Rising Thunder (the F2P fighter Cannons had up for a while). Namco used it in an arcade DBZ arena fighter.
Click to expand...
The amount of data you have to store to make GGPO work goes up enormously in a 3D game.

Skullgirls is also not XrD.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
mbpm1 said:
Both of those are 3d games though
Click to expand...
Skullgirls uses a 3D engine, but it's a 2D game. Rising Thunder was only ever released on PC, so I don't get that comparison either. And neither of those are as demanding as SFV is. Not even sure what the argument is here.
Of course GGPO is possible in 3D games, I never said the opposite.

You should probably come up with something better if you call bullshit tbh.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Spuck-uk said:
I did, and I stand by it.

*Thumbs up from player one to change character*

*Massive pile of stats in CFN that are never populated*

*Literally everything about the replay system*
Click to expand...

The original comment was about the visual look fam. You keep moving those goalpost tho.
 
M

Mr. X

Member
Skullgirls is 3D models like SFV, you can google this and find Mike Z explaining it. There's real time lighting, shadows. Ravidrath still posts on GAF if you want him to explain it again.

But nah, keep believing against all evidence to contrary.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Mr. X said:
Skullgirls is 3D models like SFV, you can google this and find Mike Z explaining it. There's real time lighting, shadows. Ravidrath still posts on GAF if you want him to explain it again.

But nah, keep believing against all evidence to contrary.
Click to expand...
What evidence? You saying it? I know they use a 3D engine (like I said) and have 2D art modeled to 3D backgrounds, but the models are not 3D. They are more than one layer of 2D art where they do lighting and stuff.

edit:
Here's the whole process: Animating the Skullgirls Way
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Mr. X said:
Skullgirls is 3D models like SFV, you can google this and find Mike Z explaining it. There's real time lighting, shadows. Ravidrath still posts on GAF if you want him to explain it again.

But nah, keep believing against all evidence to contrary.
Click to expand...

It's 2D sprites that are technically 3D, it's not some Guilty Gear Xrd shit. It's 3D like Paper Mario is 3D, but even less so.

Adding a third dimension doesn't automatically make a game way more resource intensive.

Skilletor said:
KI and MKX use rollback netcode and by all accounts play pretty much flawlessly online. SF5 needs to figure its shit out.
Click to expand...

MKX is better but its not flawless. But yeah, if MKX can do it at its level of graphical fidelity then its clear SFV can, too.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
It's the servers that are more of the real problem i think, and maybe the matchmaking, in conjunction with rollback. It's inconsistent.
 
U

Ucchedavāda

Member
Zombegoast said:
Remember Rising Thunder and GGPO 3?
Click to expand...
It was glorious, except for that 1% of matches that just turned to complete shit, and then you were stuck in a FT2. It makes me glad that re-matching in SFV is optional, so that you can bail in the worst case.


Mr. X said:
Skullgirls is 3D models like SFV, you can google this and find Mike Z explaining it. There's real time lighting, shadows. Ravidrath still posts on GAF if you want him to explain it again.

But nah, keep believing against all evidence to contrary.
Click to expand...
Do you have a source that details that? Because everything I've ever seen and read indicates that SkullGirls uses 2D sprites for the characters.
 
Shmuppers

Shmuppers

Member
Hey, I've been busy with school so I had to drop this game towards the end of season 1. I played a lot of Claw and Boxer, are they still good?
 
E

ElFly

Member
King Awesome said:
It's 2D sprites that are technically 3D, it's not some Guilty Gear Xrd shit. It's 3D like Paper Mario is 3D, but even less so.

Adding a third dimension doesn't automatically make a game way more resource intensive.
Click to expand...

from what I can gather the lines and colors and shading are all separate layers, and the shading is dynamic depending on a -I heard- depth map, so it is kind of a bump mapped texture

Ucchedavāda;231192098 said:
Do you have a source that details that? Because everything I've ever seen and read indicates that SkullGirls uses 2D sprites for the characters.
Click to expand...

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30805473&postcount=113

the dude doesn't mention how specifically it works but at least we know it is per pixel
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Shmuppers said:
Hey, I've been busy with school so I had to drop this game towards the end of season 1. I played a lot of Claw and Boxer, are they still good?
Click to expand...

Claw is worse and he's gotta work a lot harder to get it started. There's a Claw player that recently reached Master rank. I forgot what his or her name is though.

sixteen-bit said:
Congrats. Is that a bad matchup?

I once lost to a Juri cuz my AA game is ass and she would do like 40% jump in combos lol
Click to expand...

I'm fucking absolute garbage so I'm not a good frame of reference, but her normals are jusssttt long enough to keep me out from bullying her. So for the first three matches I kept doing stupid shit like panicking and jumping in and getting AA'd, getting thrown because I would block too much, and respecting her.

Then I realized, hey, I'm plus on a lot of stuff, so I started going in more, using my lights to blow up the throws, and mixing up my headstomps and confusing the fuck outta her on our second go around. took it 2-0.

Also found out I can't confirm worth shit and that could have led to better damage.
 
Shmuppers

Shmuppers

Member
Huh, thanks guys. Claw wasn't all that strong to begin with, and they nerfed him? 🤔

Guess I'll work on my Boxer. I'll check the leaderboards to see what that Master Claw is doing.
 
U

Ucchedavāda

Member
ElFly said:
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30805473&postcount=113

the dude doesn't mention how specifically it works but at least we know it is per pixel
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's pretty interesting!
And the thread also confirms that the characters themselves are 2D sprites:
Ravidrath said:
We have a really advanced sprite system in Skullgirls, with real-time lighting and the most frames per character in a fighting game. The actual sprites are around 800x800, but we scale and filter them down to half that so the lines are really crisp and smooth.
Click to expand...

Also, wow at 800x800 character sprites.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
"It's sprites, but everything is rendered in 3D. We have a skeletal animation system but we only use it for the stages."

That's like...exactly what I said lol
 
U

Ucchedavāda

Member
Mr. X said:
From Mike Z, short and not detailed http://skullheart.com/index.php?threads/rwby.207/page-2#post-118617
Click to expand...

Interesting that they are using a skeletal system for the stages.
But having stages and characters as sprites should cut down on the amount of state by an enormous amount, even when rendered in a 3D engine. It's not like you need detailed, animated models to position flat textures on a few fixed planes on the Z-axis. So citing it as an example of a 3D game using GGPO seems a bit misleading to me.

Rising Thunder is a better example of a 3D game using GGPO, but it is also noticeable for having rather simple graphics, and on top of that it has some pretty hefty minimum requirements in terms of the CPU power, in that it requires a quad-core CPU.
 
S

Sayad

Member
Lttp, but there are tones of last gen FPS games using rollbacks in 8vs8 even while p2p(no server side calculations). Last gen couldn't handle roll back netcodes for 3D fighters probably just translate to "our engine wasn't built from the ground up to support it".
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
In that interview from earlier, Capcom actually addressed that:
GGPOish technology first appeared in hardware-intensive 3D games, like 1st person shooters, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to bring that up as a limitation.

Seth Killian: There are some major dis-analogies between Capcom fighters and some other games that use 3D models (for instance shooters are able to use predictive rollback in a transparent way much more easily for a variety of reasons (ask Ponder!), although YouTube is also full of outraged, "I shot first!" videos showing that there are still some problems).
I'm sure it's possible to make a 3D fighter where it might be as simple as what you suggest, but in our case, it isn't. Beyond reiterating that, "I am not a (real) programmer," and some internal issues about the way the games are built, I will add at least that when I was making some of the initial pushes for this tech, I came to the table with many of your same views. I'm still bullish on GGPO, but I've learned the hard way that it's definitely not as simple as it's being described here. Far from impossible, but also far from simple.

Svensson: Other games have used "similar gamestate replay" concepts but not GGPO specifically. And please stop comparing 1st person shooters to fighting games in terms of networking and predictive code. They are apples and oranges in terms of the sensitivities of having predictive collision, arbitration and error correction. They are not less challenging, but they are different.
Click to expand...

The shooters I know don't revert the whole game back to an earlier state like fighting games do. It's more about the position of your opponent. Again...need to ask programmers.
 
Shadoken

Shadoken

Member
Yea I only see that stuff brought up now , Never saw it in the really old matches when it was popular in the US. I think its an amazing game , though obviously that weird corner infinite shit make it look really dumb.
 
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