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Street Fighter V |OTVIII| New Delayed Generation - Controversial Inputs

C

ColonialHawk

Member
Just need to make v-reversals fully invincible as a start. Shits pointless when 1) it's slow as fuck and 2) can be blocked or thrown because of 1.
 
N

Neoxon

Junior Member
I probably should've specified this earlier. My mention of the input buffer not being the problem is referencing James Chen's tweets on the matter.
James Chen said:
I have always considered the new Input Buffer to be one of the bigger culprits of snowballing problems with SFV. Well, it has nothing to do with combos, it makes Frame Traps and punishes and Frame Kills too precise. There's so little room for human error, so the game is too scientific. Mixups got standardized.
Click to expand...
As I mentioned earlier, there were previously combos in SFIV that you couldn't do online due to one frame links. So yeah, keep the input buffer, but give other means of coming up with unique combos (and no, universal Focus Attack shouldn't be the answer).


TheSpoiler said:
Ono scoring combos on Red Bull

Dude you better DROP a trailer on me if you there
Click to expand...
If anything, the next character reveal would likely be at E3.
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
Reizo Ryuu said:
Ehh, how is it different from baiting out "bursts" in other games though?
Click to expand...

Bursts are different. They're faster, way more effective, have their own resource and, more importantly, they're usually used when you're getting hit, not when you're blocking. Games with Bursts also have their own, better versions of V-Reversals, as well as other defensive mechanics like Roman Cancels, Blitz Shields, and Instant Block.
 
R

Reizo Ryuu

Member
Point is them not being a 100% guaranteed get out of jail free card doesn't make them pointess.
Saying v-reversals are pointless is some wild hyperbole.
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
Reizo Ryuu said:
Point is them not being a 100% guaranteed get out of jail free card doesn't make them pointess.
Saying v-reversals are pointless is some wild hyperbole.
Click to expand...

The problem is that they're literally the only universal defensive mechanic in a highly explosive and momentum based game and, of all things, they nerfed them in the transition from Season 1 to Season 2.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Neoxon said:
I probably should've specified this earlier. My mention of the input buffer not being the problem is referencing James Chen's tweets on the matter.

As I mentioned earlier, there were previously combos in SFIV that you couldn't do online due to one frame links. So yeah, keep the input buffer, but give other means of coming up with unique combos (and no, universal Focus Attack shouldn't be the answer).
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of the 3f buffer and the bolded is primarily why. Also, if Capcom straight up removed the 3f buffer it wouldn't change the combo game at all. People still drop these easy ass combos in tournaments but the 3f buffer doesn't make them so easy that people wouldn't be going for the same shit all the time anyway.

The problem with the 1f and 2f links in SFIV is that they some characters' essential tools behind an execution barrier. If your character has a max damage overhead combo he can do on wakeup but it's locked behind a 1f link your opponent may not see that as a potential threat if you're playing online. I don't actually mind 1f and 2f combos existing in the game but I'd rather them be ways to eke out more damage, like a tricky juggle follow-up or something, rather than something a character has to have to be viable.
 
C

CountBlack

Member
Neoxon said:
I probably should've specified this earlier. My mention of the input buffer not being the problem is referencing James Chen's tweets on the matter.

As I mentioned earlier, there were previously combos in SFIV that you couldn't do online due to one frame links. So yeah, keep the input buffer, but give other means of coming up with unique combos (and no, universal Focus Attack shouldn't be the answer).



If anything, the next character reveal would likely be at E3.
Click to expand...

says who
 
N

Neoxon

Junior Member
CountBlack said:
says who
Click to expand...
Says the netcode of SFIV, also based on my own experience with trying to do some of Ryu's links online that I had nailed in Training & my locals. If you were somehow able to do them online, color me impressed.

Though to be fair, it may have something to do with SFIV's delay-based netcode. But even with SFV using rollback, the buffer kinda decreases the room for error online (netcode teleporting aside).
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
TheSpoiler said:
Ono scoring combos on Red Bull

Dude you better DROP a trailer on me if you there
Click to expand...
MyV8cLw.png
 
C

CountBlack

Member
Neoxon said:
Says the netcode of SFIV, also based on my own experience with trying to do some of Ryu's links online that I had nailed in Training & my locals. If you were somehow able to do them online, color me impressed.

Though to be fair, it may have something to do with SFIV's delay-based netcode. But even with SFV using rollback, the buffer kinda decreases the room for error online (netcode teleporting aside).
Click to expand...

its cause your execution was trash

not to say that delay based netcode didn't make things harder, but I could hit 1f links all the time online. With plinking ofc
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Invincibile backdashes...eh, no. I don't really want those back. we need a better defensive options, but inv backdash isn't what i want. Maybe give us pushblocking, or just defend or something.

MrCarter said:
I liked some of his points in the video but you can clearly tell his bias against SFV when he mainly used that game to get his narrative across lol. What I don't understand is, execution was something that was majorly complained about in previous games because it "cut off" the casuals, yet now when it's more accessible people are complaining it's "too easy" - it's like the FGC don't know what they want. In addition to this, people ALSO want SFV to sell more copies with "casual" content such as arcade, ladders, tourney mode etc, yet they want them to have a harder time actually playing and learning the game? Makes no sense.
Click to expand...

we've been over this

Execution for basic combos should have been lower/universalized. Execution for more advanced stuff go as wild as you want.

The casuals don't give a shit about playing the game itself. They want arcade mode/single player content. Most importantly, when they go online they want to fight people around their level instead of randomly being placed against Daigo. All of this can be accomplished while getting rid of none of the execution.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
mbpm1 said:
we've been over this

Execution for basic combos should have been lower/universalized. Execution for more advanced stuff go as wild as you want.

The casuals don't give a shit about playing the game itself. They want arcade mode/single player content. Most importantly, when they go online they want to fight people around their level instead of randomly being placed against Daigo. All of this can be accomplished while getting rid of none of the execution.
Click to expand...

This is correct. The maligned 3f buffer in SFV doesn't help casual players who can't consistently do fireballs. Fighting games execution requirements should be made as easy as possible as long as it doesn't impact high level play (which is very possible). It's not like pros were throwing their arms up in the air when air dashes could be done by hitting two buttons in Marvel. There's many ways fighting games can be made easier to play while simultaneously not dumbing them down.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Honestly I think SF5 is in a fine place with execution when people are still unwilling to play Chun (even when she was top tier) because she's overly technical. But if backdashes were to be buffed, I'd just have them lose counter-hit state, but in general I just want CCs to be toned down/mostly removed in general.

Village said:
hmm I don't think her character design is trashy, though I like her battle costume more than her normal outfit though.

That statement was more... fashion designer than I expected from you of all people.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you could mean by that daaarling.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
You know what's the weirdest part about the combos in this game?

Is that they literally have what we all want for combos in the form of S2/S2.5 Chun-Li. Her combos are a lot more open-ended and have more ways to confirm into V-Trigger and continue combos than she did in S1. It's the type of change a few other characters should get too.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
lucebuce12 said:
You know what's the weirdest part about the combos in this game?

Is that they literally have what we all want for combos in the form of S2/S2.5 Chun-Li. Her combos are a lot more open-ended and have more ways to confirm into V-Trigger and continue combos than she did in S1. It's the type of change a few other characters should get too.
Click to expand...

That's the character design in a nutshell in SFV. V-Skills are completely useless for a bunch of characters but they're integral to characters like Balrog. Zoning is dead in SFV except for Guile who is one of the few characters, if not the only character, who doesn't have to rush in.

It's not like the game can't have these things people want, it's just the majority of the cast doesn't have these things people want. It's not impossible to fix.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Balance is an interesting thing

What is balanced at lower levels continually becomes less or more imbalanced as you go up the ranks in terms of player skill. You might think something is okay until you run into someone who really knows stuff
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Although Guilty Gear got Street Fighter V in this mess, I think Guilty Gear can get it out.

  • Instant blocking. Reduces blockstun and adds V Gauge.
  • Some sort of Blitz Attack/Red Focus reversal. Takes two bars, has infinite hyper armor, puts the opponent into a Crush Counter state (a good one that can be combo'd after), and can be charged to guard break. However, you can't dash cancel it and it wouldn't be plus on block (maybe -2). This would give everyone an invincible reversal (you could still be thrown) and a new combo tool.
  • I'd reduce V-Gauge gain on hit and up it on V-Skill use. Make it less of a comeback mechanic.
  • Canceling into V-Trigger on block or hit starts the V-Trigger gauge at 50%. This is how it works in BlazBlue in regards to the Overdrive mechanic. It's silly that doing V-Triggers raw is practically pointless.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
King Awesome said:
Instant blocking. Reduces blockstun and adds V Gauge.
Click to expand...
Execution and timing in SFV? Get out of here lol.

King Awesome said:
I'd reduce V-Gauge gain on hit and up it on V-Skill use. Make it less of a comeback mechanic.
Click to expand...
Guile OP.

King Awesome said:
Canceling into V-Trigger on block or hit starts the V-Trigger gauge at 50%. This is how it works in BlazBlue in regards to the Overdrive mechanic. It's silly that doing V-Triggers raw is practically pointless.
Click to expand...
Chun literally garbage.

For the record, all of what you say is solid, especially that last suggestion.
 
V

Village

Member
Dag, Not a lot of Crush Counter fans, I say i'm neutral on it. I i like , but see why people don't.

Onemic said:
And then we can truly have a game with only rushdown/mixup as a viable playstyle :p
Click to expand...

Then play kolin, parry everything. Win Capcom cup.



Rickenslacker said:
I have no idea what you could mean by that daaarling.
Click to expand...

Horseapples.

CountBlack said:
SFV execution
Click to expand...

Rub the face on the buttons


sixteen-bit said:
He revoked the trailer when the shadow realm glitch appeared. Took the Shoryu pic and peaced out.
Click to expand...

Oh the five nights and freddy's glitch happened at a tourney?
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Village said:
Dag, Not a lot of Crush Counter fans, I say i'm neutral on it. I i like , but see why people don't.
Click to expand...

Crush Counters can be fixed. The problem with them now is they're often on buttons that are really goddamned good by themselves (Rog's st.HK). Plus, they give lots of characters big combo opportunities for no meter which is an issue when the game is as high damage as it is.
 
R

Reizo Ryuu

Member
King Awesome said:
Although Guilty Gear got Street Fighter V in this mess, I think Guilty Gear can get it out.

  • Instant blocking. Reduces blockstun and adds V Gauge.
  • Some sort of Blitz Attack/Red Focus reversal. Takes two bars, has infinite hyper armor, puts the opponent into a Crush Counter state (a good one that can be combo'd after), and can be charged to guard break. However, you can't dash cancel it and it wouldn't be plus on block (maybe -2). This would give everyone an invincible reversal (you could still be thrown) and a new combo tool.
  • I'd reduce V-Gauge gain on hit and up it on V-Skill use. Make it less of a comeback mechanic.
  • Canceling into V-Trigger on block or hit starts the V-Trigger gauge at 50%. This is how it works in BlazBlue in regards to the Overdrive mechanic. It's silly that doing V-Triggers raw is practically pointless.
Click to expand...

Dunno about these.
Instant blocking could be interesting, but it adds another layer of risk on defense, it's to risky with SFV's damage to be a real defensive addition, it would essentially be for clutch hard reads.
Crush counter state on a 2 bar v-reversal could be interesting.
More vgage on vskill just favours people with very active vskills, on hit is balanced for everyone.
50% on cancel could be interesting, but it seems like it would butcher a couple of characters, like chun.
Also if you trigger isn't an attack, doing it raw is 100% prefered when punishing a reversal, because the activation during a combo adds 1 level of scaling, which is pretty harsh.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Reizo Ryuu said:
Dunno about these.
Instant blocking could be interesting, but it adds another layer of risk on defense, it's to risky with SFV's damage to be a real defensive addition, it would essentially be for clutch hard reads.
Crush counter state on a 2 bar v-reversal could be interesting.
More vgage on vskill just favours people with very active vskills, on hit is balanced for everyone.
50% on cancel could be interesting, but it seems like it would butcher a couple of characters, like chun.
Also if you trigger isn't an attack, doing it raw is 100% prefered when punishing a reversal, because the activation during a combo adds 1 level of scaling, which is pretty harsh.
Click to expand...

Well, triggering it raw should have more uses. Currently it's great for anti-airing if you have a damaging AA (like a CA or something). Regardless, I want this change because I want players to make more choices when to do something because it's less interesting when one way is always the right way. This change just happens to tone down BS like Balrog activating VT off an overhead to do huge damage or not get punished severely. It's still there but he loses a few rush punches for canceling.

I also think everyone's V-Skills should be buffed until they're useful (or replaced if they're Mika tier) and everyone should have 3-bar VTs. But that would require things to be changed on a case by case basis.

The only thing I recommended that can be dropped in untouched is Instant Blocking. I can see it only making certain match ups easier without necessarily breaking anything. It's more likely to be ineffective if anything but people complain about heavy spam in this game and that's an area I think it'd be useful.
 
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