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[BlueBadger]

If a cameo is the best we can hope for "well written female character", things are kind of dire indeed...

Yupppp. 'Cause lawd knows her character in the original game isn't what I'd call "strong" at all.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Well, Bayonetta and Samus Aran (pre-Other M, of course) are often considered "strong female characters", and that basically boils down to them being badass and the former being sexy and proud of it, which speaks volumes about the misguided perception of what constitutes a "strong" character, making it look like it's more about the character being in control rather than being well-written to the point the audience can empathize with parts of their character and the dilemmas they face. I never thought about likening the protrayal of "strong" female characters to the blaxploitation phase in movies (which I'm not that knowledgeable about, though), but I've heard it didn't really help black character stereotypes in general, and the general public's perception of black characters in fiction, so it might actually be a pretty fair comparison to how games keep giving us female characters that are strong in the same misguided sense.

Samus, while not particularly complex, constituted a strong female character because she was an independent bounty hunter who, despite her efficacy in survival and combat situations, still felt compassion towards the helpless. She is a character that survives purely on her own skills and expertise in hostile conditions, but shows a disposition towards learning about the cultures and environments she explores. You can make a case for Samus on her representation in most of her games - particular Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. The fact she is a badass soldier is second to the characteristics that comprise her identity. Samus is definitely understated, but this is perhaps expected in a series where she is usually the only character, but the character is still there.

A case for Bayonetta is much harder to make, and I have not heard one that is particularly convincing. I think the strongest argument you can make is that she's not as bad as other sexualized female protagonists because she supposedly owns her own sexuality. But I don't think you can say she is particularly strong or well-written.

There is a particular argument to be made within the context of witches, though. The witch myth is rooted in a distrust in women and goes back to ancient human societies. Women who congregated together, or showed an interest in education, or were unpopular in communities, were accused of or branded as witches. Being labeled a witch was a death sentence. It was something you could not defend yourself from being or clear your name over - you were usually just maimed and executed. One of the most common and most prevailing descriptions of witches has always been their promiscuity and seductive nature, because women having sex is obviously sinister and evil, so describing witches as perversely sexual was a way to degrade women and their sexuality simultaneously.

Of course, men could not sexualize witches forever without also wanting to fuck them. So sexy witch archetypes became pretty common and gave rise to the magical femme fatale. These women, while empowered, were still considered wicked. The difference was now their body and sexuality was on display for a male audience. This is a juxtaposition I think is especially heinous - the idea that sexually empowered women are synonymous with wicked and evil while also existing to illicit your erection. It really builds up the mental construct that you should both hate and want to fuck women at the same time.

The difference with Bayonetta, and this why I do give her some credit, is that Bayonetta is not stigmatized. She is not adversarial to the player (like the enemy witch in Brandish, for example). Bayonetta is meant to be the heroine, and the player is supposed to like her, and the player is supposed to see a typically demonized archetype as an individual with a motive that they want to see succeed. Her being a witch is what makes her powerful as opposed to an end-all-be-all label of disempowerment. Being sexually assertive and owning it isn't enough to be a "strong female character", but in the subversive context of witch lore, it's not as bad. That's why I kind of write-off Bayonetta. She's not a deep or nuanced leading woman, and she is still symptomatic of the kinds of women men too oft write, but she is somewhat enriched by context.

So Samus is good.

Bayonetta, eh. If she's strong, it's not for the reasons most people argue. It's for the subversive context. I haven't played either Bayonetta games, so I couldn't tell you.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Hahaha oh man, the salt.

That's just saddening. Why some people feel so threatened by this I can't wrap my head around.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

A strong female character seems more like an archetype now than just a characteristic or trait of a female character.



This a problem with a lot of characters not just female characters, that is why we get archetypes - it is much easier to write them that way. However, because of cultural bias, audience targeting, and social norms it can be much worse for female characters. The negativity of damsel - of - distress has caused a reaction that fixed that obvious, but not the underlining problem which is characters with no depth some of the time and created a situation were creators can held behind a 'strong female character', and have the female pretty much still become centered around the male mc. She can kickass on a good day, so don't feel saving her 90% percent of the time.

In an inverse of the trope, it can pressure writers into feeling that their female characters must be standalone asskickers who don't ever need help, and never show any true vulnerability, because otherwise that would be simply reducing them to 'yet another' damsel in distress, which apparently negates any and all value.

Mind, I feel your point especially comes up in games either inspired by or drawing on anime, especially the harem genre. Why, look at this wide and diverse (by which we mean, they have different hair colours and degrees of an hourglass figure) cast, each capable of standing on their own until their prerequisite moment of weakness to showcase why our non-distinct MC is in fact a stand up dude who they should grow weak at the knees for.

 

[Zafir]

I think the problem is the word strong is also used interchangeably. In the way where strong doesn't mean "physically" strong. But a strong female in terms of strongly written, high quality.

 

[pashmilla]

That's just saddening. Why some people feel so threatened by this I can't wrap my head around.

This will always, always be relevant.

 

[Kthulhu]

Samus, while not particularly complex, constituted a strong female character because she was an independent bounty hunter who, despite her efficacy in survival and combat situations, still felt compassion towards the helpless. She is a character that survives purely on her own skills and expertise in hostile conditions, but shows a disposition towards learning about the cultures and environments she explores. You can make a case for Samus on her representation in most of her games - particular Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. The fact she is a badass soldier is second to the characteristics that comprise her identity. Samus is definitely understated, but this is perhaps expected in a series where she is usually the only character, but the character is still there.

A case for Bayonetta is much harder to make, and I have not heard one that is particularly convincing. I think the strongest argument you can make is that she's not as bad as other sexualized female protagonists because she supposedly owns her own sexuality. But I don't think you can say she is particularly strong or well-written.

There is a particular argument to be made within the context of witches, though. The witch myth is rooted in a distrust in women and goes back to ancient human societies. Women who congregated together, or showed an interest in education, or were unpopular in communities, were accused of or branded as witches. Being labeled a witch was a death sentence. It was something you could not defend yourself from being or clear your name over - you were usually just maimed and executed. One of the most common and most prevailing descriptions of witches has always been their promiscuity and seductive nature, because women having sex is obviously sinister and evil, so describing witches as perversely sexual was a way to degrade women and their sexuality simultaneously.

Of course, men could not sexualize witches forever without also wanting to fuck them. So sexy witch archetypes became pretty common and gave rise to the magical femme fatale. These women, while empowered, will still considered wicked. The difference was now their bodies and sexuality was on display for a male audience. This is a juxtaposition I think is particular heinous - the idea that sexually empowered women are synonymous with wicked and evil while also existing to illicit your erection. It really builds up the mental construct that you should both hate and want to fuck women at the same time.

The difference with Bayonetta, and this why I do give her some credit, is that Bayonetta is not stigmatized. She is not adversarial to the player (like the enemy witch in Brandish, for example). Bayonetta is meant to be the heroine, and the player is supposed to like her, and the player is supposed to see a typically demonized archetype as an individual with a motive that they want to see succeed. Her being a witch is what makes her powerful as opposed to an end-all-be-all label of disempowerment. Being sexually assertive and owning it isn't enough to be a "strong female character", but in the subversive context of witch lore, it's not as bad. That's why I kind of write-off Bayonetta. She's not a deep or nuanced leading woman, and she is still symptomatic of the kinds of women men too oft write, but she is somewhat enriched by context.

So Samus is good.

Bayonetta, eh. If she's strong, it's not for the reasons most people argue. It's for the subversive context. I haven't played either Bayonetta games, so I couldn't tell you.

I'm a huge Platinum fan and I love Bayonetta, but yeah. Platinum doesn't exactly have a great track record on deep story.

Hopefully Neir will be different.

 

[Servbot24]

Hahaha oh man, the salt.

That's not salt, that's being a horrible human being.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

This will always, always be relevant.

Good point

 

[Jennipeg]

More people need to play The Longest Journey. Three pages into a thread about great female leads, and not one mention of April Ryan?

Good point, its been too long since I played that game.

 

[ShyMel]

Hahaha oh man, the salt.

It's sad to see people be so nasty.

 

[LordKasual]

Well, Bayonetta and Samus Aran (pre-Other M, of course) are often considered "strong female characters", and that basically boils down to them being badass and the former being sexy and proud of it, which speaks volumes about the misguided perception of what constitutes a "strong" character, making it look like it's more about the character being in control rather than being well-written to the point the audience can empathize with parts of their character and the dilemmas they face. I never thought about likening the protrayal of "strong" female characters to the blaxploitation phase in movies (which I'm not that knowledgeable about, though), but I've heard it didn't really help black character stereotypes in general, and the general public's perception of black characters in fiction, so it might actually be a pretty fair comparison to how games keep giving us female characters that are strong in the same misguided sense.

I feel like blaxploitation is a really close match for this.

It's not really about being "strong". It's more about not being stereotypical. Or in most cases, avoiding the possibility of being called stereotypical. Same thing with LGBT characters and the idea that they "need to be written well" to exist.

 

[Autoignition]

There was no way to generate a personal player connection to Luna outside of just including a massive amount of cutscenes, flashbacks or playable sections, because she isn't directly interacting with Noctis and she has no combat abilities. You were meant to feel a personal connection to her through Noctis' personal feelings. It could have been more fleshed out, but the end result would have ultimately felt the same IMO.

BS. You don't have to have a character in your party in order to care about them. Using FF7 as an example, the Turks were some of the best characters in that game, and they were never once playable. But they interacted with the main cast enough that you got to know who they were as characters and got invested in their motivations.

Luna was the personification of the disjointed narrative of FFXV as a whole. She was so far removed from anything that the guys were doing that no one cared about her struggles. That's why it's easy to point to her as a defining problem.

 

[4Tran]

The problem is that people indeed have taken the phrase "Strong [female] Character" literally when ideally when you talk about "Strong characters" they don't mean literally strong "badass" characters, but a round, full, complex, meaningful character, which is "strong" as opposed to "one dimensional".

So people make "badass, ass kicking literally strong women" characters that are still one dimensional.

Yup. I think that all of the hangup is over the word "strong". A lot of people read it to mean physical strength, and that extra complexity is granted by emotional strength or acts of heroism. This is all barking in the wrong direction because what "strong female characters" actually means is female characters who are strongly characterized. Strongly characterized characters don't have to have anything that we would normally associate with strength because it's all about the depth of their characterization; how well they're defined in terms of goals, personalities, and so on.

I'm a huge Platinum fan and I love Bayonetta, but yeah. Platinum doesn't exactly have a great track record on deep story.

Hopefully Neir will be different.

Platinum isn't touching the story in Nier: Automata.

 

[Not]

How about "complex female characters"

Oh right, they're usually known as "bitches"

 

[Back-In-Black]

How about "complex female characters"

Oh right, they're usually known as "bitches"

Nothing wrong with a female character being a "bitch" so long as they are well written. Yennefer in the Witcher series can most definitely be classified as a "bitch," but she's still an amazing character.

 

[4Tran]

How about "complex female characters"

This is almost synonymous with "strong female characters". The difference is that complex characters can still be poorly written, while it's just about impossible for that to be true of strong characters.

 

[Crankshaft]

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

 

[pashmilla]

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

Is that really what you got from it? Sigh.

 

[JayRobertson]

The Marxism is strong with this thread

 

[Napalm_Frank]

My favourite main female character of all time is Maiev from Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. She has no tryhard sex appeal and isn't tryhard badass. She is great because she is a zealous lunatic on a revenge mission, heavily flaved character and an asshole. And that is what makes her way more interesting than something like, say, Bayonetta.

Also she is fun as hell to play as.

 

[Autoignition]

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

Maybe write her as a fully-realized person and not focus on specific traits like "meek" or "strong"?

Why is she meek? Why is she strong? Does she have a definable arc that forces her to shuck those traits at some point?

Seriously, the whole point of the piece in the OP is to point out that writing characters (specifically female characters) as being just one thing is lazy, uninteresting, and tired.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

Don't overthink and don't under think it. Learn from other women's experiences in life and just try.

 

[sfried]

Bayonetta, eh. If she's strong, it's not for the reasons most people argue. It's for the subversive context. I haven't played either Bayonetta games, so I couldn't tell you.

Bayonetta is shown caring for her friend Jeanne, who at first was positioned as a sort of rival, but turn out was the only childhood friend she had growing up since Bayonetta was the born from a forbidden relationship between a(n Umbran) Witch and a (Lumen) Sage, since Bayo was pretty much ostracized because of it. In the second game she pretty much rescues Jeanne who's soul had been dragged into the depths of hell, and literally pursues her there despite having to fight demons, some of which were originally alligned with Bayonetta herself. She shows closeness and attachment with her mother and her clan in later segments

Spoiler

as well as developing a bond with her father from the past

.

I'd say Bayonetta became strong in part because of her friend, her mother, and her

Spoiler

future self

all shaped her into the woman she is. (If the spoilered parts don't make sense, Id' say watch youtube compilations of all the cutscenes from both games.)

 

[Mman235]

The Marxism is strong with this thread

You forgot your triple brackets.

Maybe write her as a fully-realized person and not focus on specific traits like "meek" or "strong"?

Why is she meek? Why is she strong? Does she have a definable arc that forces her to shuck those traits at some point?

Seriously, the whole point of the piece in the OP is to point out that writing characters (specifically female characters) as being just one thing is lazy, uninteresting, and tired.

This. Just write female characters as actual human beings. Someone complaining is inevitable, but if you know you tried it doesn't matter, and the majority will appreciate the work.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's pretty bizarre that developers felt socially compelled to make "strong" female characters, and at the same time, nobody cares about writing a "strong" male character. It's like why single out women like that?

It's essentially two things:

a) a misunderstanding, confusing "strong female characterization" vs "strong female character", and
b) the latter being also a backlash against stereotypical damsel/useless women tropes, especially if the female character is the only female character (or only major one).

So, to show that you can do better than having a useless/weak damsel in distress as your piece of media, you make the lady a big strong badass. Which can be totally OK, of course, but it's also myopic.

A better solution is to simply have a diversity of non-stereotypical female characters. It's ok if a female character is weak, cowardly, submissive, and even useless, but if she's the only female character in your story, then it's um, a little off-putting/problematic, right? But if she's part of a larger cast of female characters, then it can work.

I remember a point I saw raised years ago, can't remember from where (possibly if not probably tumblr), on how the expectations of a 'strong female character' can at times undermine the creation of strongly written female characters, whatever their flaws may be.

The example in question was that Guybrush Threepwood wouldn't be 'allowed' to be (or rather, wouldn't be positively welcomed as) a female character, in the current cultural climate.

By which it was meant that Guybrush's cavalcade of flaws - including being physically weak, an idiot in almost every fashion that doesn't involve solving bizarre puzzles, cowardly, lacking confidence, and a touch of a pervert - are only collectively acceptable as a character because he's a guy. We presume these flaws are part of who he is, and are not meant to be reflective of or would be found commonly in all other characters of the same gender or race. If you made a female equivalent, many people would deride them as too weak, as a harmful example, so instead you'd get a 'strong female character' to try and avoid any such criticisms, and would probably fit one of the archetypes as defined in OP's essay. My guess would be femme fatale because that's how female pirates work apparently.

There's a need for nuance when it comes to representation, because people don't easily slot into single archetypes, or have all the same interests and beliefs.

That's interesting. I'd love to see a female equivalent of Guybrush Threepwood. Particularly since it's a comedic work his flaws are what makes him so entertaining (a cowardly idiot as protagonist in a serious story might be a little insufferable xD unless the writing is truly compelling).

There are very few female anti-heroes in fiction, especially as video game protagonists.

I'd love, love to see more of them. Even the good examples, the well-written, flawed but "strong" female protagonists, are almost always very heroic. That's OK, but... can I get a female equivalent (by equivalent I don't mean 1:1, just similarly flawed/anti-heroic) as Guybrush, Kain (LoK), Joel please? Ellie in TLoU 2 seems to go down that path, which is interesting. I get the impression that Aloy won't be an anti-heroine, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if she ends up being that.

Who cares. Artists should be free and stop destroying games with political correctness.

I care

I'm the same, I have often yelled at the page when reading Sansa, but her reactions make perfect sense to her as a person, same with Catelyn, I think she is the strongest woman in the series and never lifts a sword. She also makes a terrible mistake in the first book.

Hear hear. Catelyn Stark (book version, not show version) is the best-written character by GRRM ever. Come at me bros

Final Fantasy females are neither strong or good. They're made to be pretty.

Sadly, you are correct, and could easily say that about a significant majority of female game characters. :\

Edit: LMAO @ the 3rd comment

Japanese culture expert27 February 2017 at 08:20
Amirox is a multifaceted individual whose orientation cannot be narrowly defined by some arbitrary sexual binary.

 

[Kthulhu]

Yup. I think that all of the hangup is over the word "strong". A lot of people read it to mean physical strength, and that extra complexity is granted by emotional strength or acts of heroism. This is all barking in the wrong direction because what "strong female characters" actually means is female characters who are strongly characterized. Strongly characterized characters don't have to have anything that we would normally associate with strength because it's all about the depth of their characterization; how well they're defined in terms of goals, personalities, and so on.


Platinum isn't touching the story in Nier: Automata.

I was more referring to the fact they worked on it. Most of their other games they have worked on have simple or decent stories, not complex narritives with deeper meanings like Neir.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

Don't overthink and don't under think it.

Lol, this is not helpful advice.

 

[Ahasverus]

The Witcher 3 is, as usual, a great reference here. Its female characters are strong willed, feminine and strong.

 

[rackham]

I don't know whether this is a Japanese culture thing or just the way animators envision their waifus but whenever I see a girl game character doing stereotypical female anime mannerisms like clasping her hands together with her eyes closed talking about strength, leaning forward with their but to exclaim something, or doing something completely nonsensical as is typical anime fashion, I can't think of them as anything other than a shit character.

Also, holy shit the fashion some of these devs use for their "strong females. For every guy that's out there dressed inappropriately for battle, there's like 10 women


Now maybe it turns out that Japanese girls do indeed act like this in real life, in which case I apologize but it all seems so fake.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Lol, this is not helpful advice.

The simple answer is treat them like human beings. It sounds stupid but there are a lot of male writers that don't give a shit about female characters.

 

[ßig]

I prefer one-dimensional characters in games. The deeper characters get the cheesier it feels to me. The story itself however can get complex, twist and turn and do 360s all it wants. So what OP is suggesting would turn me off of a game.

 

[ghst]

we're in an awkward period where everyone wants to put female characters in their games but is terrified of upsetting anyone, so dials back any flaws or conflicting elements to the point that they might as well have not bothered.

videogames are in a terrible artistic climate where they have to walk a thematic tightrope or get thrown to the lions, so they tend to play it as safe as possible. with women that means feisty and kick ass.

i'd love to play a game with a female lead who was a selfish waster fuck up, but i can just imagine the mauling it would receive from activist blogs who don't appreciate such an ugly representation of women. even the blokes are still 95% dull generic power fantasies because nobody wants to take risks that might harm the bottom line.

 

[pashmilla]

I can read what you say in your forums, by the way. Shitty one liners does nothing besides put yourself on the same level as the typical internet trolls. Try to be a man and argue where people can reply back.

You're a bad feminist because, once again, you come with that bullshit of "females should be this or that way". Why can't a woman just be a hero like a Samus? She isn't a bad character because of it. In fact, your pattern of thought was what killed Samus.

Not every female character needs to be a special snowflake full of background and personality depth. In fact, most don't. Video games aren't movies, players like to feel powerful and there's nothing better than a simple character like the old Lara Croft to incite this feeling.

And, of course, as I was arguing earlier, the fact that you'd rather remember a fucking robot than a single woman of color, who actually exists in mainstream vydia. A member of your own forums cited one. The internet and the world is filled with white feminism like yours, and seeing people like you act like the paragon of morality grinds my gears.

Lastly, don't act like a fucking gamer gater and be all defensive when people call you out on your text. If you can't handle criticism without getting childish reactions, then don't write.

"Try to be a man" good start buddy. I'm a woman. Also nice job equating masculinity with strength which is exactly what I was arguing against in my article.

I'm not saying "women should be this way". Where did I? I said that to act as though writing one-dimensional "strong characters" is equivalent to writing complex and interesting characters is disingenuous. Also I find the idea of a man explaining to a woman what feminism is or isn't quite amusing.

A female character in a principal role should be as developed as a man in the same role. Skimping on female characters because they're women is bullshit. Also, "video games aren't movies" but what about games with heavy focus on character and story like The Last of Us? Ellie is a great female character and she doesn't serve to make the player feel powerful.

It's not my fault if gaming is woeful in its representation of POC. I also included the Japanese Chie and half-Indian Chloe. I would LOVE for more diverse representation in video games but sadly that's still an uphill battle.

I'm not defensive. I'm open to reasonable criticism, which this is not. Sorry.

 

[Kthulhu]

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

There is no such thing as a perfect character. People will always get offended by art wether your intentions were pure or not.

Write what you wanna write, that's all. Just know that you're work will be criticized, and that most of it will come from a place of love.

If you decide to take your criticism constructively, you can learn from your mistakes so you don't make them in the future.

 

[LordKasual]

BS. You don't have to have a character in your party in order to care about them. Using FF7 as an example, the Turks were some of the best characters in that game, and they were never once playable. But they interacted with the main cast enough that you got to know who they were as characters and got invested in their motivations.

Luna was the personification of the disjointed narrative of FFXV as a whole. She was so far removed from anything that the guys were doing that no one cared about her struggles. That's why it's easy to point to her as a defining problem.

You like the Turks because they're badass. They have cool theme music, you fight them multiple times, they serve as plot pushers and even comic relief. Sometimes they get in your way, other times they help you. The player develops a personal connection to them because you constantly interact with them. Directly, through dialogue and gameplay, and frequently.

Noctis actually does interact with Luna in the game...albiet in an very indirect fashion (notebook being the real exception), and this was done deliberately. If you played the game and didn't care anything for Luna, then you simply didn't care about the events of the game, because she was all over the place. Or rather, you just didn't care much about Noctis himself, because he's the only real connection the player has to Luna in the first place.

A better example would be Braska from FFX. You never meet, speak, or interact with Lord Braska in FFX, but he's mentioned multiple times throughout the story and everywhere you go, he's left a mark, and people love him for it. Of course the dynamic between Auron/Jecht/Braska is fundamentally different from Luna and Ravus, as is the situations surrounding their missions. But if Yuna wasn't related to him, then he would have no more connection to the player than Yunalesca.

 

[Kthulhu]

I don't know whether this is a Japanese culture thing or just the way animators envision their waifus but whenever I see a girl game character doing stereotypical female anime mannerisms like clasping her hands together with her eyes closed talking about strength, leaning forward with their but to exclaim something, or doing something completely nonsensical as is typical anime fashion, I can't think of them as anything other than a shit character.

Also, holy shit the fashion some of these devs use for their "strong females. For every guy that's out there dressed inappropriately for battle, there's like 10 women


Now maybe it turns out that Japanese girls do indeed act like this in real life, in which case I apologize but it all seems so fake.

Some are narritive tropes and others are designed to appeal to a subset of the audience that they can sell a shit ton of expensive merch to.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I don't know whether this is a Japanese culture thing or just the way animators envision their waifus but whenever I see a girl game character doing stereotypical female anime mannerisms like clasping her hands together with her eyes closed talking about strength, leaning forward with their but to exclaim something, or doing something completely nonsensical as is typical anime fashion, I can't think of them as anything other than a shit character.


Now maybe it turns out that Japanese girls do indeed act like this in real life, in which case I apologize but it all seems so fake.

It's a bit cyclical. Yes, many Japanese women - and people in general - do behave like that, but as much as that informs their media it is also informed by their media. Japanese media being somewhat rather reliant on archetypes, and in many circles very, very self-referential. Hell, they've built an industry about one of those archetypes - the idol industry - and it is infamous for how difficult it is on its stars to maintain the artificial cutesiness that ultimately underlines their careers, being living waifus for their fans.

In contrast, Hayao Miyazaki is somewhat renowned both for somehow avoiding cliché in a lot of his works, but also managing to have a lot of female characters that are at once compelling and avoid the traps of the literal 'Strong Female Character'. While he can't take all the credit, and not every shot fired hits its mark, but a lot of his approach he credits to simply going out, interacting with the world, and studying a lot.

Some are narritive tropes and others are designed to appeal to a subset of the audience that they can sell a shit ton of expensive merch to.

And the latter point especially is what I mean by 'self-referential'. Writers, devs, and companies will throw a lot of shit in if they think it'll appeal to the otaku crowd.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"Try to be a man" good start buddy. I'm a woman. Also nice job equating masculinity with strength which is exactly what I was arguing against in my article.

I'm not saying "women should be this way". Where did I? I said that to act as though writing one-dimensional "strong characters" is equivalent to writing complex and interesting characters is disingenuous. Also I find the idea of a man explaining to a woman what feminism is or isn't quite amusing.

A female character in a principal role should be as developed as a man in the same role. Skimping on female characters because they're women is bullshit. Also, "video games aren't movies" but what about games with heavy focus on character and story like The Last of Us? Ellie is a great female character and she doesn't serve to make the player feel powerful.

It's not my fault if gaming is woeful in its representation of POC. I also included the Japanese Chie and half-Indian Chloe. I would LOVE for more diverse representation in video games but sadly that's still an uphill battle.

I'm not defensive. I'm open to reasonable criticism, which this is not. Sorry.

Who are you replying to? Someone in the comments? It's concern trolling trash, don't worry about it.

 

[Dio]

I don't know whether this is a Japanese culture thing or just the way animators envision their waifus but whenever I see a girl game character doing stereotypical female anime mannerisms like clasping her hands together with her eyes closed talking about strength, leaning forward with their but to exclaim something, or doing something completely nonsensical as is typical anime fashion, I can't think of them as anything other than a shit character.

This is more because anime, and subsequently anime games, are based on theater and theatrical practices to an extent. For example. If you talked the way an anime character talks to a random Japanese person they would laugh at you - it would be like adopting the mannerisms of a stage play and talking like that in regular conversation. It's not meant to be realistic and the audience knows it.

Same goes for JP movies/TV. There is a very clear divide between stuff meant to entertain and real life - the realism obsession in Western stuff is quite different.

 

[4Tran]

It's essentially two things:

a) a misunderstanding, confusing "strong female characterization" vs "strong female character", and
b) the latter being also a backlash against stereotypical damsel/useless women tropes, especially if the female character is the only female character (or only major one).

So, to show that you can do better than having a useless/weak damsel in distress as your piece of media, you make the lady a big strong badass. Which can be totally OK, of course, but it's also myopic.

I think that a big problem is that game writers seem to be trying to take a page from Hollywood blockbusters, and it's not as if you see a lot of strong female characterization there either.

Hear hear. Catelyn Stark (book version, not show version) is the best-written character by GRRM ever. Come at me bros

I don't like Catelyn, but you're probably right.

Sadly, you are correct, and could easily say that about a significant majority of female game characters. :\

Aeris isn't too bad. The main problem with her is that she's not where the main thrust of the narrative lies, so a lot of what she's about is obscured by the rest of the story.

I was more referring to the fact they worked on it. Most of their other games they have worked on have simple or decent stories, not complex narritives with deeper meanings like Neir.

My point is that the Platinum team decided to not involve themselves with the story in Nier: Automata at all. So as far as story is concerned, it might as well be not considered a Platinum game at all.

 

[pashmilla]

Hear hear. Catelyn Stark (book version, not show version) is the best-written character by GRRM ever. Come at me bros

Oh, another Catelyn fan! Even if I don't always agree with her actions, I love reading her chapters because the way GRRM writes her patriarchy brain and the way she navigates this toxically masculine society is fascinating and really adds a lot of layers to her.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Lol, this is not helpful advice.

To go into a little more detail, stop trying to write "female characters" and just write characters. Write them the same way you write men. The problem is that too many writers start their characters under an assumed gender (male), so their characters all come from the seed of their actual role. They all start as a hard-boiled detective, or a down-and-out-rocker, or a penniless college student, or an office worker who hates their boss. Then that's the character the writer writes.

Often, male writers don't start a female character from this angle. They start with "girl," or they write a women who specifically relates to a male character they've already written, like "female love interest". Then they are unable to describe them or envision them without relating specifically to their gender. In lots of weird ways, they end up constantly sexualizing them (leading to the meme, or version of the meme "she boobed up and down, quite boobily") because damn, this is a girl character.

There are lots of good ways to write characters explicitly from the seed of their sexual or racial identity. Sometimes it is integral to the plot that a character be female. A lot of times, though, it is not. Writers will write twenty male characters and then one girl. And at no point does this writer forget, or let you forget, this character is the girl.

The answer to this, and the best advice you can give somebody looking to not do this anymore, is to stop writing "girls" and start writing characters. Ignore their gender entirely. Write them just like you would write a man because - when writing a man - most male writers are not constantly thinking about the character's gender. They're just making them work in the story.

A really good practice I recommend all the time is to take a male character you've written and just make them female. Congratulations, you've just written a strong female character. Sometimes people put of a fuss and say "but this character can't be female" or "but this character doesn't work if they're a woman", but usually cannot explain why. This is good. The sooner they realize there's usually no reason for a male character to not be female, the sooner they stop limiting the kinds of roles their female characters can have.

For a game that does this exceptionally well, play Dishonored 2. Characters you would typically expect to be male are female. They're heavily tattooed street urchins, they're gruff and dour steamboat captains, they're wary old shopkeepers, they're neurotic doctors obsessed with their research, they're two burglars plotting a jewel heist, they're corrupt guards giving civilians a shake-down. The game is an amazing game about women. It accomplishes this by casting women in roles normally defaulted to men. Simply inverting genders in places you normally would not is sometimes an all-too-easy fix for your "I can't write women" woes.

 

[ShyMel]

It's not my fault if gaming is woeful in its representation of POC. I also included the Japanese Chie and half-Indian Chloe. I would LOVE for more diverse representation in video games but sadly that's still an uphill battle.

Yes, there are very few games that feature female characters who are non-white. And those that do have them often feature the women sexually and exocticized, such as the women in the latest Tropes Vs Women.

 

[sfried]

I prefer one-dimensional characters in games. The deeper characters get the cheesier it feels to me. The story itself however can get complex, twist and turn and do 360s all it wants. So what OP is suggesting would turn me off of a game.

I feel the problem is you have one segment wanting more stories like The Last of Us. The problem with that game is that the gameplay got railroaded by the story. Most could be said about other NaughtyDog offerings as well.

Can you have good characterization without much emphasis to the story, or at least some way where gameplay does not get railroaded by "aesthetic choices" (i.e. "the Sony way")?

I also don't feel that just because a character is poorly characterized, they should easily be dissmissed: The same character can be built upon with more scenarios that explore their world view. If good "strong female characters" isn't just about whether or not they are badass or can handle themselves in combat, why disregard and be dismissive towards those who just so happen to be good at handling themselves in combat? What could be done is build some better backstories regarding them and how they got to that position, as well as what drives them. You can't diversify if you try to exclude examples too, like the aforementioned Bayonetta.

 

[John Kowalski]

Final Fantasy females are neither strong or good. They're made to be pretty. Personality and character arcs aren't even of secondary importance to them. The same can be said for most male FF protagonists but not all.

Off the top of my head i can recall Beatrix, Freya, Judge Drace, Fran, and Yuna as good female characters that either are or grow to be strong individuals.

I don't remember VII or VIII tho, and i haven't played XV.

 

[Mman235]

Who are you replying to? Someone in the comments? It's concern trolling trash, don't worry about it.

Looking at that person's other posts I'd agree with this; it's a bunch of Gator-esque "gotcha!" stuff (along with some slips that hint at it being concern trolling from someone who doesn't actually care) that seems like an intentional attempt to come across as an "SJW" while perfectly demonstrating how those people don't actually exist beyond a tiny minority.

 

[Jennipeg]

That's interesting. I'd love to see a female equivalent of Guybrush Threepwood. Particularly since it's a comedic work his flaws are what makes him so entertaining (a cowardly idiot as protagonist in a serious story might be a little insufferable xD unless the writing is truly compelling).

There are very few female anti-heroes in fiction, especially as video game protagonists.

I have tried to say something similar before and failed miserably. There are some characteristics that are not easily tolerated in female characters. Perhaps this is due to the backlash against damsels, I don't know. I would love to see some female anti-heroes.

I recently watched Blair Witch (the first one) and the girl in that really annoyed me, I actually found myself wondering if I would feel the same about a man with her personality. I thought she was bossy, would anyone call a man bossy? I'm a woman, yet I am guilty of this intolerance sometimes, I found her the most annoying when the two guys (particularly map boy) also fall apart in that situation. It was an interesting realisation for me.

Hear hear. Catelyn Stark (book version, not show version) is the best-written character by GRRM ever. Come at me bros

I will never forgive her treatment of Jon though, now those feelings are complex. I don't like her but she's so well rounded.

 

[gow3isben]

Exactly. Nadine in Uncharted 4 for example was just there for the sake of introducing a physically strong woman who beats dudes up. Zero character otherwise. Women (like men) should be strong if it furthers the plot or helps the game in some way. They shouldn't be strong for "yay girl power!"

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

To go into a little more detail, stop trying to write "female characters" and just write characters. Write them the same way you write men. The problem is that too many writers start their characters under an assumed gender (male), so their characters all come from the seed of their actual role. They all start as a hard-boiled detective, or a down-and-out-rocker, or a penniless college student, or an office worker who hates their boss. Then that's the character the writer writes.

Often, male writers don't start a female character from this angle. They start with "girl," or they write a women who specifically relates to a male character they've already written, like "female love interest". Then they are unable to describe them or envision them without relating specifically to their gender. In lots of weird ways, they end up constantly sexualizing them (leading to the meme, or version of the meme "she boobed up and down, quite boobily") because damn, this is a girl character.

There are lots of good ways to write characters explicitly from the seed of their sexual or racial identity. Sometimes it is integral to the plot that a character be female. A lot of times, though, it is not. Writers will write twenty male characters and then one girl. And at no point does this writer forget, or let you forget, this character is the girl.

The answer to this, and the best advice you can give somebody looking to not do this anymore, is to stop writing "girls" and start writing characters. Ignore their gender entirely. Write them just like you would write a man because - when writing a man - most male writers are not constantly thinking about the character's gender. They're just making them work in the story.

A really good practice I recommend all the time is to take a male character you've written and just make them female. Congratulations, you've just written a strong female character. Sometimes people put of a fuss and say "but this character can't be female" or "but this character doesn't work if they're a woman", but usually cannot explain why. This is good. The sooner they realize there's usually no reason for a male character to not be female, the sooner they stop limiting the kinds of roles their female characters can have.

For a game that does this exceptionally well, play Dishonored 2. Characters you would typically expect to be male are female. They're heavily tattooed street urchins, they're gruff and dour steamboat captains, they're wary old shopkeepers, they're neurotic doctors obsessed with their research, they're two burglars plotting a jewel heist, they're corrupt guards giving civilians a shake-down. The game is an amazing game about women. It accomplishes this by casting women in roles normally defaulted to men. Simply inverting genders in places you normally would not is sometimes an all-too-easy fix for your "I can't write women" woes.

Also if your gonna have your female characters be LGBTQ or very into pro-women's rights activist do heavy research into that field before writing anything, especially if your a guy