UnemployedVillain
Member
This ambiguous use of "strong" is bugging me. Was her characterization worse than the male antagonists in the game? I haven't played 4, so I'm curious.
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"Strong" female characters: This is not the representation we're looking for
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
This ambiguous use of "strong" is bugging me. Was her characterization worse than the male antagonists in the game? I haven't played 4, so I'm curious.
gow3isben
Member
Incomparably worse. She had no characterization compared to Rafe, the male villain. That dude was a complete turd but he oozed charisma.
Autoignition
Member
Okay, a few things here.
1. Apart from the notebook, Noctis interacts with Luna via flashbacks. They never have a back-and-forth conversation in real time about the current events happening in the narrative. Even during the Leviathan fight, he's unconscious or helpless around her. She's not an active presence in Noctis's life, just a passive one, which detaches her from player engagement.
2. Just because something is deliberate doesn't make it good.
3. I didn't care about the events of the game
during the times when Luna was alive
the Regalia was stolen?
reviving the Gods one by one?
4. Noctis and Luna's relationship was never explored in a meaningful way
until after she died
Luna was a symptom. The storytelling was the problem. But because Luna so firmly embodies the problem with the overall storytelling, again, it's easy to point to her and go, "Look at that lazy, slipshod afterthought of a character." I'm not going to go back and retroactively care about Luna after the fact, once the story got going. That's not how narrative progression works.
eta: I'm sorry for hecking up spoiler tags, hope no one got spoiled in the interim.
John Kowalski
Banned
Nadine had character. She was business oriented, she didn't care for meaningless rivalries, she had somewhere to go back to (her company, which she was trying to build back up) which motivated her search for the treasure and her attempts to stop Drake from getting it first. That's character.
Thinking a little more about strong, diverse, female characters, I have to praise Ninja Theory as well. Part of that success is probably due to their impressive mo-cap.
While Heavenly Sword basically had a slightly more empathetic Kratos, it also had Kai - an interesting, child-like character who may have some form of autism or post-traumatic stress. She made the game to me.
Granted, most of their characters are sexualized, but Trip from Enslaved and Kat from DmC are pretty relatable and memorable
I'm betting Senua from Hellblade will be no different.
While Heavenly Sword basically had a slightly more empathetic Kratos, it also had Kai - an interesting, child-like character who may have some form of autism or post-traumatic stress. She made the game to me.
Granted, most of their characters are sexualized, but Trip from Enslaved and Kat from DmC are pretty relatable and memorable
I'm betting Senua from Hellblade will be no different.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It's one of those things that adds context to her behaviour (and indeed, a lot of female characters in the series) so that you understand not only why they do certain things, but even those behaviours might not be genuine but the result of circumstance. You don't have to agree with what they do; it's just another sign of how fucked up society in the world of ASOIAF is.
Which ultimately ties into the point Morrigan Stark raised previously, in response to my earlier post. There's a difficulty in finding compelling female characters in fiction that nevertheless aren't also given heroic motivations that allow the reader to readily support their actions. Those who are, are often side characters who don't need such motivations because well, they aren't the main characters. Hell that even applies within ASOIAF - I doubt we'd get the sort of access we have to Cersei's thoughts later on in the series, whether in book form or in TV, if we didn't first have the Stark perspectives to follow along for the story. Which then may tie into another poster's point on how a lot of complex and compelling female characters are also the villains, unbidden by main character restrictions.
Not video games but iirc in legion Aubrey plaza's character was supposed to be like a middle aged man. She got the role and asked them not to change the dialogue. It ended up with her playing a character type that's very rarely female (kinda frank Reynolds-y)
I don't like her either, but she has many redeeming qualities. She is imo, needlessly horrible to Jon, whose only crime was being born, but her feelings are understandable at the same time. She is jealous and threatened by this boy who looks more like Ned than her sons.
She makes a huge blunder with Tyrion, but then shows a strong tactical mind in her advice to Rob, both in battle and at court with the Frey's. She knows her place in that world, and doesn't step out of it, she is a lady, but what a lady she is. She's great and I hate her lol.
gow3isben
Member
She was the most basic villain in the whole franchise. Just superfluous to the story. Any stock character could have filled her role and the story wouldn't have been impacted at all. Hopefully the DLC expands on her character a bit because the game sure didn't.
Crankshaft
Member
I mean I don't think male characters are well developed either (in video games). I've never played a game and thought "wow what a great character". You're playing a game not reading a book. You character is kinda just there to move you along from one set piece to the another. I don't think a game lends itself very well to establishing much character development. I guess I don't hold videogame writing up to the same standards as a book. Even characters in a movie have a limited amount of time to have any development. Not that that excuses videogames from having 2D character personalities.
Autoignition
Member
You need to play better story games then, mate.
Finale Fireworker
Member
This happened in Bob's Burgers too. Tina's character was supposed to be male, and still has a male voice actor, but they redrew the character as female and she became the most popular figure in the show.
rackham
Banned
You're not the only person to bring up yuna but she was destroyed in x-2 to be a pop star Japanese idol. Shit was stupid, as is most Japanese female designs.
Just as an aside, I can love a female character even if I recognize that her design is shit. Kat from gravity rush is a great example. I find her personality to be charming and endearing. She's humorous and has her own opinions. With that said, aesthetically she's shit. Who in their right minds thinks flying girls who kick people and land on their feet constantly should be on high heels? Just as bad as bikini armor imo
John Kowalski
Banned
Most basic villain? The story wasn't going for anything out of the ordinary. Rafe is a rich boy motivated by chronic low self esteem and envy. That's even less characterization than Nadine had.
I have yet to play X-2, will hopefully play it after finishing X in the remastered pack i bought recently. But i don't see why her becoming a pop star would destroy her character anyway and i've seen enough love for X-2 to be doubtful of any comments that paint it in an exclusively bad light.
God Luna is so nothing that I cannot believe that they intended for her to originally not be with the main cast at all times.
She does nothing, has zero personality, sounds bored 100% of the time, and you learn basically nothing outside of optional, off hand dialogue or radio appearances.
Yet the WHOLE GAME acts as if she's always there helping and being this massively important plot element and oh how Noctis and her are so connected.
It's so baffling, and doesn't help that her design is so forgettable, her Kingsglaive appearance is actually interesting and not "Blonde Anime Princess"
She does nothing, has zero personality, sounds bored 100% of the time, and you learn basically nothing outside of optional, off hand dialogue or radio appearances.
Yet the WHOLE GAME acts as if she's always there helping and being this massively important plot element and oh how Noctis and her are so connected.
It's so baffling, and doesn't help that her design is so forgettable, her Kingsglaive appearance is actually interesting and not "Blonde Anime Princess"
I actually didn't mind that, she never planned to be alive at that point, so what does she do with herself? She's been confined by this faux religion and her self imposed duty, then in X-2 she gets to explore who she actually is. There are some really poignant moments in X-2 between all the silliness. It felt natural to me because when it mattered she showed herself to be compassionate like she always was. She was also deeply hurt by the events of X, and what has happened since, particularly visible when visiting theme park Zanarkand.
Crankshaft
Member
I played Longest Journey which was earlier referenced in this thread, and outside of reading every entry of April's diary and being impressed with the amount of writing that was added to a side part of the game, I wasn't exactly blown away with April's character. But I think I am someone that wants the main story to wow me more than the character itself. What I want out of a story is something that will wow me or show me something I haven't seen before, the characters to me are just plot pieces that move the story along. I realize other people may want the characters to have more background so as to not appear 2 dimensional.
gow3isben
Member
Summary of Nadine's character: Merc for hire.
That is it. Any Tom, Dick, or Harriet could fill her shoes.
Rafe on the other hand, is widely accepted as the most complex Uncharted villain to date.
I didn't realize people actually confused badass and strong when it comes to characterization. Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2 is still one of the strongest women in games. Is she powerful or badass? Maybe but she also has so much depth to her that I wish more people who bring her character up when these kinds of threads popup.
Autoignition
Member
I actually agree with you to a certain extent. Characters should be products of the worlds that they reside in. What makes a character good or interesting, though, isn't the amount of backstory that they have, but rather how they react, change, and adapt to the world and the conflict in it. That's what makes a game like Xenogears such a classic. Xenogears is very much a huge world-based story, but it's how the characters adapt to their situations and grow as people that draws people in and keeps them invested.
There were lots of ways they could have fleshed her out that didn't require her being in the party.
For example, the note-passing thing with her dog? They could have expanded that to be more frequent and personal instead of generic "I'll be there soon k thnx" notes.
We could have had note conversations like "Remember that time when we___" and then you get a cutscene that reflects your decision.
Even secondhand interactions would have worked, like an NPC who would recount the time he met Luna and how she managed to heal him. We would have all sorts of tales about Luna that build her up, and when we finally meet her in person, it's this exciting event to see if she lives up to the stories.
John Kowalski
Banned
She's not just a mercenary, she's a business woman who inherited the company in very bad shape and is trying to build it back up. Which means she is not willing to risk her life on the search, she's only interested in the most efficient way to find it, she doesn't have time for personal bickering. She reflects all of those in the game in her interactions with Drake and Rafe.
That said i don't even see what point you're trying to make. Of course ND could make up a million other characters that could have had the same degree of feet on the ground to give some perspective to the struggles between Rafe/Drake/his brother whose name i don't remember. That doesn't mean she's less of a character or of less significance to the plot.
And since you're trying to purport that Rafe is somehow the most complex villain in the series, you should explain how that is the case because the only thing i saw in Rafe (which also makes him my favorite character of the game) was a nuanced privileged prick who finally found himself in a position of superiority and is enjoying every moment of it.
UnemployedVillain
Member
They also had cellphones so even within the game's fiction, it didn't make sense unless they just wanted to make it more difficult to communicate with each other for...reasons
On a related note: Nael van Darnus, Matoya, Ysayle, Y'shtola & Hilda.
Gotta resub to XIV when Stormblood hits.
To be fair, when the vast majority of games are about ways to kill other people, monsters, aliens, etc, then that confusion is easy to understand. Gaming's large cash cows are largely one genre equivalent to the action movie. I think most of us would agree that most action movies don't even have any strong characterization at all, and the best you can hope for especially for a woman is badass. That comes with the genre, in a way.
There can be side characters that are great and don't necessarily need to be badass in those games, and that's great. There's obviously going to be a bit less screen time for them like that, though.
Gaming needs to branch out and really try to be creative about what's possible in the gaming space and what stories can then be told through those systems. Those genres do exist and I think they're starting to get more popular, so that's good. Games like Life is Strange and characters like Max and Chloe wouldn't work in the modern AAA killfest genre, but they do work in Life is Strange. And they're great there! I hope more games like that can get the spotlight and budget and push the boundaries of gaming.
gow3isben
Member
She is a mercenary who does things for money, and pulls out if she feels it isn't worth it. That is it.
No not just anybody could fulfill Rafe's role in the story and do it as well as him come on. His personality is layered with being psychotic, cunning, ruthless, petulant, charismatic, tenacious, and strangely charming.
Though to be fair, he doesn't have much competition as far as Uncharted villains go.
Personally, I think the best way to go about it is to not let them being LGBTQ the defining trait about the character. Just like you can make a sexy female character, so long as their sexiness isn't their sole defining trait.
As an example, Psycho-Pass has two lesbian characters (or at least one of them is bisexual, it isn't made clear). The series never directly points this out other than seeing them lounging about in bed post-sex. This is never glazed over, either by the characters or the direction. It's just a natural thing that happens.
I think that's a way more effective way to depict an LGBTQ character instead of trying (and typically failing) to make a big commentary about it. There's nothing more irritating than a story that hand-holds its audience (see the previous criticism of when creators have to insist how their characters are "strong").
I think the idea was that Luna was under watch by the Empire and couldn't contact him through normal means of communication.
Would've been nice if the game emphasized that. Heck, I still don't even know what the deal with the doggos were.
Lights and Waves
Member
If you actually played the game, you would learn within the first 15 minutes of the game that Yuna is not a pop start and that it was LeBlanc, the game's villain, who was impersonating her.
X-2 is one of few video games that actually had outstanding character development for a woman. Yuna's progression from X to X-2 in terms of personality and self-expression are incredibly well done.
But thanks to posters like you who don't bother to play the game, we're stuck in this endless cycle of shit posting.
Hell yeah, I was reading this thread to see if she is brought up or if I need to. She is indeed very strong, since sorceresses in Witcher universe are. But she is still very flawed and many like me, can find her personality to be quite unpleasant. Love her as a character though. She didn't feel at all that she was written to please me as male playing the game, even when she is a romance option and indeed has deep history with the character I'm playing as. She was complex and felt more like a person than just a fantasy. She wasn't afraid to be cruel or fuck people over, even good people, to achieve what she needed. Even though she is one of the good guys.
Some internet points to you too!
rackham
Banned
only talking about the way she is portrayed in every game art and media for x-2. It's not my fault that she's supposedly deeper than that. That's like kojima levels for excusing quiet. I don't feel ashamed for thinking that if that's what they mostly show.
How are neither of you naming Tifa, Celes, Rikku, Rydia or Prishe?
Even the FFXIV example is missing Yugiri, Moenbryda and Merlwyb. Merlwyb!
Is this "name the opposite of the Best Girls" day?
John Kowalski
Banned
Uh. So the fact that Nadine is business weary person who's coming to realize the fruitlessness of the search and understanding that she is losing far too much to this meaningless rivalry is not something of note? She is also tenacious, as long as it serves her interests. She is not charismatic, but she is no nonsense and down to earth. She's also ruthless. She's not charming because that's not what she wants or needs to be, she is direct and doesn't care for social niceties. See? That's not hard. She's also a layered character who shows different parts of herself as the game moves along.
And since this is a topic concerning representation of women in video games, all of those points are of particular notice because she is a woman who does not need charm, does not need some sort of emotional weakness, is not driven to recklessness by that emotional weakness, is leading a huge business and acting like a businesswoman while doing it. All of those are atypical for representations of important women characters in videogames.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
But if your gonna make some commentary on the LGBTQ community then you better know your stuff is all I'm saying. LGBTQ people are very critical about these depictions.
ChosenPredator
Banned
Yeah most of them are strong and determined to attain their goals, and I'd prefer playing as them, when i think of female characters I mostly think of anime though where they act all docile at first then at the end of 500 episodes they become badass but thats just to long a wait.
(berserk is awesome Casca comes off as strong at first)
I don't think judging a book by it's cover is useful in a discussion about nuance in character development.
UnemployedVillain
Member
You need to watch better anime
It's amazing how almost every single female character in XIV is in a leadership position.
Hell, even (Stormblood speculation spoilers)
Yda and Kirigiri are now apparently leaders of huge resistances.
patch 2.4 spoilers:
I miss Moenbryda 
rackham
Banned
It's hardly the cover and there's enough actual Charlie's angel anime sentai stuff in x-2 to make me not care that she's actually 2deep4me
gow3isben
Member
You are just using flowery language to describe a competent mercenary who realizes she is in too deep and pulls out. I am not asking Nadine to be any of those things. I am asking her to be something besides just a cardboard mercenary leader. The extent of her emotions are anger when she is duped or fear when shit is hitting the fan. Which is standard for anybody.
And that is the point. Screw "atypical" or "typical" representations. Don't make a man or woman. Make a character.
I don't think that villains being more interesting characters than heroes is all that unusual. Writers don't feel the need to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s the way they have to with protagonists so they feel more free to experiment with characterization. This goes doubly so where a lot of female characters on the good guy side are designed as female first and character second. Hollywood blockbusters tend to do this as well and you can see this influence video games.
There's room for character-less strong women and fully developed characters who are women. I like Samus and I like Mae (Night in the Woods). Both are necessary for equal representation; I can agree that we should have more women with strongly developed character, but would disagree that people are not also looking for women with "masculine" traits.
cm osi
Member
Shantotto!
UnemployedVillain
Member
This is the case for the vast majority of characters. Villains are usually more interesting than who you play as, mainly because they're free from having to be relatable (personality, character, gameplay-wise) to the player
LinkSlayer64
Member
I don't mean to defend him necessarily, but I understand his fear. Whenever I bring a pen to paper, I always worry about the criticisms I will receive regardless, and this climate has added an extra layer of worry, I worry if I will be called an SJW, and doxed, or if I'll be ridiculed, or told I wasn't trying hard enough, or get throws of people offended by me and dismiss me, some of whom will probably never read what I wrote.
I'm only human.
(With a lot of anxiety issues)
The game is goofy and corny and coming from the self serious X that doesn't appeal to everyone.
But I'm not sure where the "the story is deep" sarcasm comes from. The story of X-2 isn't subtle, much like most japanese games, it screams it's themes from the rooftop.
It's never not about Yuna and her friends development.
spazchicken
Member
I don't agree that she has to be charismatic in order to be a good character. She was no-nonsense and to the point. That's a perfectly good personality for a character to have.
The only difference between her and Rafe was she didn't have much of a back story but the story didn't call for it either.
gow3isben
Member
Now whether a character is good or bad can be subjective. Some people like more bland characters like her whereas I can see Rafe getting on people's nerves. My point is she isn't nearly as well characterized.