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Summer 2013 Anime Thread Zero: grown men playing with dolls/who but WB Masochism

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Day Break Illusion 02

Yeah it's a less stylish retread of Madoka. Episode 2 made that very clear. Pass.

I feel this gives Daybreak Illusion too much credit but I can't think of a more appropriate anime comparison. At best I can liken it to 90's comic books, all edginess and no substance.

So Madoka by Corvo will return. Phew.

Hey I just realized something, he's on the 10th episode of Madoka, and he got banned, and it's unknown when he'll return.

It's like the show is airing for the first time all over again...

Except that was really an episode 9 impression. Corvo unfortunately miscounted.

It feels weird to be openly discussing what we do and don't like about specific posters who can read the thread and will probably be back to post in it.

You know what MP, I'm getting real sick of your reluctance to openly insult others. Grow a freaking spine!

:p
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Nisemonogatari is totally worth watching.

I cannot stand the monogatari series. To me it's an otaku-pandering show that tries to present itself as something sophisticated and grand. This irks me and just makes me think it's a putrid pile of shit. It's 10x more offensive to me than SAO. However, I can see how others like it just the same as me for SAO.
 

LordCanti

Member
Nisemonogatari is not worth watching, and its happenings have no bearing on what is currently airing.

I liked Nise ;_;

I cannot stand the monogatari series. To me it's an otaku-pandering show that tries to present itself as something sophisticated and grand. This irks me and just makes me think it's a putrid pile of shit. It's 10x more offensive to me than SAO. However, I can see how others like it just the same as me for SAO.

You've got to accept tsundere love into your heart.
 
Daybreak Illusion 2

RSxo9KX.jpg

I thought this was going to be another Madoka, but it's actually the World Embryo of magical girl series. Works for me.

And was that the Batman theme from the Chris Nolan movies?
 
Nisemonogatari is not worth watching, and its happenings have no bearing on what is currently airing.

It's a significant step down from Bakemonogatari but there are enough good moments to make it worthwhile, definitely a lot of worse ways to spend watching 11 half hour episodes out there. Gotta cringe through a lot more pandering than the first series had though unfortunately.
 

Quasar

Member
I'll keep mecha OT alive for you corvo :(

Now I despise SAO much more, I'm not even hate it that much before.

I just continue to sigh and wonder wtf is wrong with people that they get so emotional over a cartoon. Especially one so Terribly average in the scheme of things.
 

cnet128

Banned
No let's.

Kayaba and Sugou imprison people in a virtual world against their will for the sake of fulfilling some dream. And it was definitely against their will. Nobody knew that when entering SAO, they couldn't leave again. How is Kayaba any less evil than Sugou, when he ensnared people into this digital world of his and forced them to stay? That's precisely what Sugou did, too, and Sugou did it to fewer people to boot.

Kayaba's dream was to create an entirely new world. In his own way, which I'll admit you could consider twisted, he only wanted the best for the people inside his world. He wanted to create a world in which people could live their lives to the full. Sugou, meanwhile, could not have given less of a shit about the people he ensnared in his world. He did not treat them as humans. He reduced them to essentially lab rats, robbed of all freedom, and forced pain upon them at his leisure. He planned to violate their humanity further still by directly manipulating their thoughts and feelings as he saw fit. In fact, since he claims his experiments are coming along nicely, he probably succeeded in doing this to a number of people.

Kayaba then proceeded to leave people, elderly and children not excluded, in a world that was full of very real dangers which could very definitely kill them for the sake of his ambition. This ambition is not explained in the animated series in any definite way. To further point out the hypocrisy of this action, Kayaba makes himself invincible. The game is not fair if you set yourself up as an invincible God and rule over it. And he did just that. Kayaba made himself invincible, and then rose to a position of power over his prisoners.

I never claimed that the game was fair in the sense of equality between the normal players and Kayaba himself. Obviously that's not feasible as long as Kayaba is in control of the system, and it's not something that he particularly wanted either. But the game is fair in the sense that all players are given equal, reasonable opportunity to survive and equal, reasonable opportunity to make a life for themselves. Nobody is forced to face any more danger than they themselves choose to seek.

Simply surviving in this game is not a difficult task if you make it your goal. On the most basic level, all it requires is staying within the bounds of the first town. Once the unfortunate sleep-PK loophole is discovered, simply staying within a town may not be 100% safe, but with a little care and effort anyone should be able to defeat the most basic-level monsters outside the town and thus obtain enough currency to rent a room at a hotel, where they are again completely safe. (And honestly, if you're poor enough to not be able to afford a hotel, I can't see why anyone would want to PK you anyway. Nothing to steal = no advantage to the PKer.)

He lead them into these dungeons full of dangers with the promise of freedom, and many of them died. And as he did this, he planned, all along, to one day turn on them, and slaughter them at the final level in order to make the story in his little game more amusing to himself.

As I recall, he didn't plan to slaughter anyone; his plan was always to announce himself as the final boss and then be defeated by a worthy hero. He knew all too well that this world of his couldn't last forever, and he intended to die with it. Yes, he led the players into dangerous situations, because that was how the game worked. The existence of danger is what makes life feel real - that's why he implemented the whole death system in the first place. And of course, all the players he actively led into danger were players who chose to pursue that dangerous path of their own accord. If anything, he helped to keep them safer than they would otherwise have been.

He treated these people as beneath him the entire course of the game. He lied to them, lead them to their deaths, and intended to kill many more before the end for his own jollies.

He never lied to them except about his own identity. He was open and honest with information, often providing players with good advice. He never revelled in or enjoyed players' deaths or suffering, but only saw it as a necessary evil in the creation of something great.

Sugou, at the very least, had wanted some monetary gain from it. Although at the end we see that Sugou, like Kayaba, wanted to be a God through this digital world. Both men also treated Asuna as if she were their property. Kayaba through his nonsense of the guild, and Sugou through the more personal abuse.

I think there's a fundamental difference here, though. Kayaba's desire was never to be a God; it was to create the world itself. Presiding over it was just a natural outcome of the fact that he was the one to create it, and even then he rarely used that authority for his own gain, preferring to put himself on the same level as the players for the most part, and only using his admin abilities when the greater plan was threatened in some way. Sugou, meanwhile, didn't care about the world itself at all. The world was just a tool to him, to be used to wield power over others and achieve material gains.

In other words, Kayaba became a God so he could create a world, while Sugou created a world so he could become a God.

And really, I don't think the two men "treating Asuna as if she were their property" is in any way comparable. Kayaba appreciated Asuna for her skills and treated her as a valued subordinate. He wanted to keep her close because powerful players like her would be necessary to complete the game, and his goal was to create a guild that would be capable of doing that. Even so, I don't think he would have objected so strongly to Asuna's intention to leave if it weren't for the fact that it represented an opportunity to bring Kirito under his wing. As the one who had earned the dual-wield skill, Kirito was set to become his "chosen hero", so he must have wanted Kirito in his guild at any cost.

Sugou, on the other hand...well, I don't even think it needs explaining. He kept Asuna to himself out of personal lust and personal power fantasies. He used her as an outlet for his own sadistic tendencies. Disgusting.

But what, really, differs between Kayaba's treatment of the population of Aincrad and Sugou's of Asuna? Asuna was stuck in a cage, from which she could not escape, just like the SAO players could not log out. Both Asuna and the SAO players are teased with the promise of an escape that they cannot attain with ease. Asuna the control pad on the door, and SAO the 100th floor. Just as Sugou loved to come into the cage and "play" with his imprisoned, Kayaba entered Aincrad and played with his prisoners in SAO. Just as the populace of SAO suffered harm at the hands of Kayaba's world, people dying in droves in the drive to escape which HE encouraged actively, Asuna's body was molested by Sugou. Just as Kayaba tortured the populace of SAO and used them for his own amusement, Sugou experimented on the minds of the 300, for his own gain.

The difference comes down to the fact that the SAO players were allowed the opportunity to live full and satisfying lives, with human interaction and freedom and a whole world to explore, whereas Asuna was allowed to do nothing but sit in an empty cell and occasionally suffer for Sugou's amusement. Sugou never had any intention of letting Asuna through that locked door, while Kayaba actively aided the players in reaching the 100th floor. Sugou's "playing" with Asuna was entirely for his own twisted enjoyment and nothing but torture for her, whilst Kayaba's interaction with the SAO players was for the players' own benefit as much as Kayaba's. Sugou's molestation of Asuna was entirely at his own whim and she was offered no opportunity to resist, whereas the SAO players' deaths were something Kayaba himself strove to prevent at every turn, and the players were offered every opportunity to prepare, learn to protect themselves, and even choose not to face the danger if they so desired. Sugou's experimentation on the 300 was entirely one-sided and inhumane in every imaginable way, whereas Kayaba's "torture" of the SAO populace can hardly be called that.

The only difference between Sugou and Kayaba is that Kayaba did what Sugou did on a hilariously larger scale.

And in a vastly more humane, better thought-through and respectful way, with an infinitely more admirable goal in mind. I'm pretty sure "creating a new and beautiful world" beats "controlling the minds of others" any day.

And yet there goes Kirito, praising Kayaba. And most amusingly, what he praised most in Kayaba and scolded Sugou for was "running away." Which is ironic, because Kayaba did nothing BUT run. He never stood punishment for his crimes, never willingly confronted his victims, and when SAO crumbled he committed suicide/fled to a digital world. Sugou, on the other hand, having lost in ALO, went to the real world and challenged Kirito again.

I don't think what Kayaba did and what Sugou did qualify as "running away" in the same sense. When Kayaba came up with his scheme, he knew full well that it would make him a hated and irredeemable man, and he accepted this with open arms, publicly announcing his actions and intentions to both the world at large and everyone within his game. He hid away from the world only because it was necessary in order to keep his world running smoothly. You say he "never willingly confronted his victims", but he spoke directly to them at the very beginning of his scheme, and if everything had gone according to plan, he would have announced his true nature to them and had them personally defeat him. And since he knew that he could not expect forgiveness for what he had done, he was fully prepared to pay the ultimate price of his own life at the end of it all. The process of transferring his own consciousness into a digital form was one final experiment; he had no way of knowing it would succeed, and attempted it more in the hope of continuing his ambitions of forging new and unprecedented frontiers than because he wanted to go on living.

Sugou, on the other hand, was never prepared to face the consequences of what he had done. He hid himself away, telling nobody but his closest co-conspirators of what he was trying to achieve, and maintaining the guise of a respectable man in his day-to-day life. I see no indication that he ever intended to own up to the world at large about any of the things he was doing. And when he was found out, his first instinct was to silence the leak using any means necessary, and his second to flee the country to somewhere he could continue to live a privileged life and not be judged for his actions.

In conclusion, I don't think Kayaba Akihiko is/was a good man. I don't think he was justified in killing so many people. But I do believe that in doing so, he intentionally and successfully achieved something amazing that enriched the world, that he fully accepted the weight of his own sins, and that he can be afforded a certain amount of respect for that.

Meanwhile I believe that Sugou Nobuyuki is/was a despicable man who actively pursued the suffering of others and strove to subject people to a fate worse than death for no greater ambition than his own personal gain. He pursued ambitions that, far from enriching the world, would most likely make it a far more terrible place. And he didn't even do a good job of it. There is nothing in his actions that affords anything even resembling respect.

EDIT: Aaaaaaand...

CorvoSol
Banned
(Today, 06:19 AM)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
You've got to accept tsundere love into your heart.

Nothing tsundere about it. The show leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The dialogue is boring and basically pointless all the time. It doesn't feel like there's any intent in the writing and just feels like it's made up on the fly with no thought or any deliberate ideas motivating it. Add to that the visual style just doesn't jive with me. The show as a whole just reeks of trying to come off as something cool, hip, and sophisticated and it's nothing but that.
 

Narag

Member
Atlantic RIm

5Nllr8rl.png

PF4QnwRl.png

Someone could shop Joel, Crow, and Tom Servo in front of these screens and you wouldn't blink twice.

Scrubbed through this hoping for something at least charmingly B-movie but nothing of the sort was to be found, just bad CG all around. I'd been happier with big rubber suits or use of miniatures!!


He's dead, Jim.
 

LordCanti

Member
Nothing tsundere about it. The show leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The dialogue is boring and basically pointless all the time. It doesn't feel like there's any intent in the writing and just feels like it's made up on the fly with no thought or any deliberate ideas motivating it. Add to that the visual style just doesn't jive with me. The show as a whole just reeks of trying to come off as something cool, hip, and sophisticated and it's nothing but that.

I won't claim that it's cool, hip, or sophisticated, but I do like the dialogue and the art style. I can see how someone that doesn't like either of those things would instantly hate it though, since the show is mostly dialogue supported by art.

I feel this gives Daybreak Illusion too much credit but I can't think of a more appropriate anime comparison. At best I can liken it to 90's comic books, all edginess and no substance.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that it's nearly on the same level as Madoka. It's trying so so hard though, and failing.
 
Genshiken Nidaime 02

z1Pz5wRl.jpg


FANTASY.

There was a lot of girl talk. And then self esteem talk which is what I wanted from this show. Definitely warmed up to this new cast.

Oddly enough the new voice of Kugayama is probably the only new voice that bothers me since its way too deep.
 

wonzo

Banned
Kayaba's dream was to create an entirely new world. In his own way, which I'll admit you could consider twisted, he only wanted the best for the people inside his world. He wanted to create a world in which people could live their lives to the full. Sugou, meanwhile, could not have given less of a shit about the people he ensnared in his world. He did not treat them as humans. He reduced them to essentially lab rats, robbed of all freedom, and forced pain upon them at his leisure. He planned to violate their humanity further still by directly manipulating their thoughts and feelings as he saw fit. In fact, since he claims his experiments are coming along nicely, he probably succeeded in doing this to a number of people.

I never claimed that the game was fair in the sense of equality between the normal players and Kayaba himself. Obviously that's not feasible as long as Kayaba is in control of the system, and it's not something that he particularly wanted either. But the game is fair in the sense that all players are given equal, reasonable opportunity to survive and equal, reasonable opportunity to make a life for themselves. Nobody is forced to face any more danger than they themselves choose to seek.

Simply surviving in this game is not a difficult task if you make it your goal. On the most basic level, all it requires is staying within the bounds of the first town. Once the unfortunate sleep-PK loophole is discovered, simply staying within a town may not be 100% safe, but with a little care and effort anyone should be able to defeat the most basic-level monsters outside the town and thus obtain enough currency to rent a room at a hotel, where they are again completely safe. (And honestly, if you're poor enough to not be able to afford a hotel, I can't see why anyone would want to PK you anyway. Nothing to steal = no advantage to the PKer.)

As I recall, he didn't plan to slaughter anyone; his plan was always to announce himself as the final boss and then be defeated by a worthy hero. He knew all too well that this world of his couldn't last forever, and he intended to die with it. Yes, he led the players into dangerous situations, because that was how the game worked. The existence of danger is what makes life feel real - that's why he implemented the whole death system in the first place. And of course, all the players he actively led into danger were players who chose to pursue that dangerous path of their own accord. If anything, he helped to keep them safer than they would otherwise have been.

He never lied to them except about his own identity. He was open and honest with information, often providing players with good advice. He never revelled in or enjoyed players' deaths or suffering, but only saw it as a necessary evil in the creation of something great.

I think there's a fundamental difference here, though. Kayaba's desire was never to be a God; it was to create the world itself. Presiding over it was just a natural outcome of the fact that he was the one to create it, and even then he rarely used that authority for his own gain, preferring to put himself on the same level as the players for the most part, and only using his admin abilities when the greater plan was threatened in some way. Sugou, meanwhile, didn't care about the world itself at all. The world was just a tool to him, to be used to wield power over others and achieve material gains.

In other words, Kayaba became a God so he could create a world, while Sugou created a world so he could become a God.

And really, I don't think the two men "treating Asuna as if she were their property" is in any way comparable. Kayaba appreciated Asuna for her skills and treated her as a valued subordinate. He wanted to keep her close because powerful players like her would be necessary to complete the game, and his goal was to create a guild that would be capable of doing that. Even so, I don't think he would have objected so strongly to Asuna's intention to leave if it weren't for the fact that it represented an opportunity to bring Kirito under his wing. As the one who had earned the dual-wield skill, Kirito was set to become his "chosen hero", so he must have wanted Kirito in his guild at any cost.

Sugou, on the other hand...well, I don't even think it needs explaining. He kept Asuna to himself out of personal lust and personal power fantasies. He used her as an outlet for his own sadistic tendencies. Disgusting.

The difference comes down to the fact that the SAO players were allowed the opportunity to live full and satisfying lives, with human interaction and freedom and a whole world to explore, whereas Asuna was allowed to do nothing but sit in an empty cell and occasionally suffer for Sugou's amusement. Sugou never had any intention of letting Asuna through that locked door, while Kayaba actively aided the players in reaching the 100th floor. Sugou's "playing" with Asuna was entirely for his own twisted enjoyment and nothing but torture for her, whilst Kayaba's interaction with the SAO players was for the players' own benefit as much as Kayaba's. Sugou's molestation of Asuna was entirely at his own whim and she was offered no opportunity to resist, whereas the SAO players' deaths were something Kayaba himself strove to prevent at every turn, and the players were offered every opportunity to prepare, learn to protect themselves, and even choose not to face the danger if they so desired. Sugou's experimentation on the 300 was entirely one-sided and inhumane in every imaginable way, whereas Kayaba's "torture" of the SAO populace can hardly be called that.

And in a vastly more humane, better thought-through and respectful way, with an infinitely more admirable goal in mind. I'm pretty sure "creating a new and beautiful world" beats "controlling the minds of others" any day.

I don't think what Kayaba did and what Sugou did qualify as "running away" in the same sense. When Kayaba came up with his scheme, he knew full well that it would make him a hated and irredeemable man, and he accepted this with open arms, publicly announcing his actions and intentions to both the world at large and everyone within his game. He hid away from the world only because it was necessary in order to keep his world running smoothly. You say he "never willingly confronted his victims", but he spoke directly to them at the very beginning of his scheme, and if everything had gone according to plan, he would have announced his true nature to them and had them personally defeat him. And since he knew that he could not expect forgiveness for what he had done, he was fully prepared to pay the ultimate price of his own life at the end of it all. The process of transferring his own consciousness into a digital form was one final experiment; he had no way of knowing it would succeed, and attempted it more in the hope of continuing his ambitions of forging new and unprecedented frontiers than because he wanted to go on living.

Sugou, on the other hand, was never prepared to face the consequences of what he had done. He hid himself away, telling nobody but his closest co-conspirators of what he was trying to achieve, and maintaining the guise of a respectable man in his day-to-day life. I see no indication that he ever intended to own up to the world at large about any of the things he was doing. And when he was found out, his first instinct was to silence the leak using any means necessary, and his second to flee the country to somewhere he could continue to live a privileged life and not be judged for his actions.

In conclusion, I don't think Kayaba Akihiko is/was a good man. I don't think he was justified in killing so many people. But I do believe that in doing so, he intentionally and successfully achieved something amazing that enriched the world, that he fully accepted the weight of his own sins, and that he can be afforded a certain amount of respect for that.

Meanwhile I believe that Sugou Nobuyuki is/was a despicable man who actively pursued the suffering of others and strove to subject people to a fate worse than death for no greater ambition than his own personal gain. He pursued ambitions that, far from enriching the world, would most likely make it a far more terrible place. And he didn't even do a good job of it. There is nothing in his actions that affords anything even resembling respect.
yase nothing says honorable and humane quite like a man with a god complex forcing people to live in his virtual world and face a significantly higher risk of death than they otherwise would've thanks to the microwave strapped to their head. what the fuck is this
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
I got into a discussion a while back with a friend about the dialogue found in the monogatari series and in fate/zero (surprise the anime I use for a lot of examples). Anyway, to put focus on the discussion i discussed the Snail arc in monogatari and how the dialogue in that entire arc was basically pointless. It hardly added to any character development and it wasn't anything particularly important. It was just the bantering and the back-and-forth words of a few characters. In short it felt like a conversation that two people would have in real life. While the choice may be deliberate in trying to replicate that sentiment and idea, I can't agree with this being a smart one nor a good one.

In comparison the dialogue in Fate/Zero is smart, important, and feels like every sentence uttered is crucial to building up something that culminates at a certain endpoint (the every sentence part is an exaggeration of course). Specifically the dialogue of the kings in episode 11 is very deliberate in trying to communicate the various perspectives of the kings and how they clash. It was a very deliberate way of writing that depicted a battle of words. Characters were tarnished, others uplifted and glorified and there was a sense of tension and emotions in there. The intent is there and execution is there.

Just some food for thought on how I feel about the monogatari series' writing.

YAY HITLER

Now I feel this argument is complete. No argument is complete without Hitler.

Shall we just segue into an argument about which is worse, the Holocaust or Ingsoc?

I highly advise that you stop before you end up getting banned. Just a suggestion.
 

Joe Molotov

Member
yase nothing says honorable and humane quite like a man with a god complex forcing people to live in his virtual world and face a significantly higher risk of death than they otherwise would've thanks to the microwave strapped to their head. what the fuck is this

He was only hurting MMO players though; they barely even count as people.
 

Dresden

Member
YAY HITLER

Now I feel this argument is complete. No argument is complete without Hitler.

Shall we just segue into an argument about which is worse, the Holocaust or Ingsoc?

They're all pretty similar in the level of mental contortions required to justify mass murder, yes.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
yase nothing says honorable and humane quite like a man with a god complex forcing people to live in his virtual world and face a significantly higher risk of death than they otherwise would've thanks to the microwave strapped to their head. what the fuck is this
Atorasu-san Shrugged
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Yeah, they just referenced some of the events in the second episode.


That's when she first sees her dad's picture at that cameras store right?

Tamayura ~hitotose~ 2

Fuu really sucks at taking pictures.

Well, what happens is that she has a memory of a hill from childhood, but she doesn't know what that memory is. Throughout the OVAs, and by talking to people, she slowly pieces it together and remembers that
it was a hill that her father had taken her family to when they were young. Of course, she realizes when she sees the view from the hill herself and starts crying.

:firehawk
 

cnet128

Banned
I highly advise that you stop before you end up getting banned. Just a suggestion.

Well, I kind of feel this argument has run its course at this point even without Corvo being banned (;_;) I don't think I have the energy in me for another one of those posts right now, and with people bringing Hitler comparisons into the mix, I don't think it can really go anywhere pretty...

(And for the record, I was not serious about turning this into an actual Hitler/1984 argument XD The "killing people to create a better world" vs "controlling people's minds" comparison just made it too obvious not to mention.)

(Also just for the record, I would like to emphasise that I am NOT endorsing mass murder ~.~ I am merely trying to explain why I can identify with the perspective of the characters in SAO who show some level of sympathy towards Kayaba and why I don't feel like that characterisation ruins the story.)
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Well, I kind of feel this argument has run its course at this point even without Corvo being banned (;_;) I don't think I have the energy in me for another one of those posts right now, and with people bringing Hitler comparisons into the mix, I don't think it can really go anywhere pretty...

(And for the record, I was not serious about turning this into an actual Hitler/1984 argument XD The "killing people to create a better world" vs "controlling people's minds" comparison just made it too obvious not to mention.)

Just for the record, I would like to emphasise that I am NOT endorsing mass murder ~.~ I am merely trying to explain why I can identify with the perspective of the characters in SAO who show some level of sympathy towards Kayaba and why I don't feel like that characterisation ruins the story.

I think the whole series of discussion could be bogged down to the idea that there are redeeming traits in Kayaba and while the execution and intent is highly skewed, it doesn't make him purely 100% evil. Actions speak louder than words and it's even moreso idiotic that he forgot why he created the death game entirely. However, once again this doesn't make him 100% evil. There are aspects that are relatable in some way. Whether you see it or not is up to the person.
 

madp

The Light of El Cantare
I think the whole series of discussion could be bogged down to the idea that there are redeeming traits in Kayaba and while the execution and intent is highly skewed, it doesn't make him purely 100% evil. Actions speak louder than words and it's even moreso idiotic that he forgot why he created the death game entirely. However, once again this doesn't make him 100% evil. There are aspects that are relatable in some way. Whether you see it or not is up to the person.

If you have any objective that relies upon the sacrifice of innocent human lives and you still believe that the ends justify the means, you are unambiguously evil.
 

cnet128

Banned
I got into a discussion a while back with a friend about the dialogue found in the monogatari series and in fate/zero (surprise the anime I use for a lot of examples). Anyway, to put focus on the discussion i discussed the Snail arc in monogatari and how the dialogue in that entire arc was basically pointless. It hardly added to any character development and it wasn't anything particularly important. It was just the bantering and the back-and-forth words of a few characters. In short it felt like a conversation that two people would have in real life. While the choice may be deliberate in trying to replicate that sentiment and idea, I can't agree with this being a smart one nor a good one.

In comparison the dialogue in Fate/Zero is smart, important, and feels like every sentence uttered is crucial to building up something that culminates at a certain endpoint (the every sentence part is an exaggeration of course). Specifically the dialogue of the kings in episode 11 is very deliberate in trying to communicate the various perspectives of the kings and how they clash. It was a very deliberate way of writing that depicted a battle of words. Characters were tarnished, others uplifted and glorified and there was a sense of tension and emotions in there. The intent is there and execution is there.

Just some food for thought on how I feel about the monogatari series' writing.

Nothing wrong with either of these approaches if you ask me. "Meaningless" banter can be a wonderful tool if used correctly, and my god does Nisio Isin use it correctly. It may not "develop" the characters, but what it does do is display them in all their glory. It's an art form in its own right. And since this is Monogatari and things are often not quite what they seem, that seemingly-meaningless dialogue can often also hide the occasional subtle hint about what's actually going on.

it's even moreso idiotic that he forgot why he created the death game entirely.

gais I've been over this he didn't forgeeeeeeeet
 

LordCanti

Member
I got into a discussion a while back with a friend about the dialogue found in the monogatari series and in fate/zero (surprise the anime I use for a lot of examples). Anyway, to put focus on the discussion i discussed the Snail arc in monogatari and how the dialogue in that entire arc was basically pointless. It hardly added to any character development and it wasn't anything particularly important. It was just the bantering and the back-and-forth words of a few characters. In short it felt like a conversation that two people would have in real life. While the choice may be deliberate in trying to replicate that sentiment and idea, I can't agree with this being a smart one nor a good one.

In comparison the dialogue in Fate/Zero is smart, important, and feels like every sentence uttered is crucial to building up something that culminates at a certain endpoint (the every sentence part is an exaggeration of course). Specifically the dialogue of the kings in episode 11 is very deliberate in trying to communicate the various perspectives of the kings and how they clash. It was a very deliberate way of writing that depicted a battle of words. Characters were tarnished, others uplifted and glorified and there was a sense of tension and emotions in there. The intent is there and execution is there.

Just some food for thought on how I feel about the monogatari series' writing.

I haven't seen Zero, and I can't remember the dialogue from that part of Bake well enough to defend it, but generally speaking, Bake exists in a wordplay vortex that makes even otherwise mundane situations interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, there are moments where the dialogue is in service to the overarching story (like Araragi/Shinobu discussing the future for instance) but I like the more conversational tone. Some of the best moments of Monogatari are delivered via inner monologue.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
If you have any objective that relies upon the sacrifice of innocent human lives and you still believe that the ends justify the means, you are unambiguously evil.

The intent is horrible. The act is horrible. The person is horrible. I'm not denying that. However, if a murder goes out and saves a kitten that's stuck in a tree does that make him terrible person? I think it's easy to associate one person with a single action or attribute. A person is made up of more than a single action and a mere moment. Having said that, Kayaba Akihiko is a scumbag for doing that.

Also, I never said the end justifies the means. Simply that just because someone does something monstrously bad it automatically means he/she is unable to do good.
 

cnet128

Banned
In T___________T news, I was vaguely hoping to get through most if not all of my eight Saturday anime episodes (plus Servant x Service makes nine) this evening, but thanks to this crazy murderer argument I've only watched three and now it's quarter past eight in the morning >.>
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
In T___________T news, I was vaguely hoping to get through most if not all of my eight Saturday anime episodes (plus Servant x Service makes nine) this evening, but thanks to this crazy murderer argument I've only watched three and now it's quarter past eight in the morning >.>
See, SAO is so bad, it even murdered your time.
 

cnet128

Banned
See, SAO is so bad, it even murdered your time.

CURSE YOU KAYABA AKIHIKOOOOOOO

If only I had Brain Burst I could get around this problem.

EDIT: Honestly I think Kayaba's greatest sin is murdering Corvo's interest in Accel World.

...Then again maybe Sugu would have done that without Kayaba's help.

WHY AM I NOW SOMEHOW THINKING ABOUT A KAYABAxSUGUHA PAIRING
 
Hayate no Gotoku! 17

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I find Nagi drama completely boring. It was fun to seeing her mess up everything though.

Also I love that Wakamoto narrator is having fun with his lines. He should be the narrator for everything.
 

iavi

Member
I got into a discussion a while back with a friend about the dialogue found in the monogatari series and in fate/zero (surprise the anime I use for a lot of examples). Anyway, to put focus on the discussion i discussed the Snail arc in monogatari and how the dialogue in that entire arc was basically pointless. It hardly added to any character development and it wasn't anything particularly important. It was just the bantering and the back-and-forth words of a few characters. In short it felt like a conversation that two people would have in real life. While the choice may be deliberate in trying to replicate that sentiment and idea, I can't agree with this being a smart one nor a good one.

In comparison the dialogue in Fate/Zero is smart, important, and feels like every sentence uttered is crucial to building up something that culminates at a certain endpoint (the every sentence part is an exaggeration of course). Specifically the dialogue of the kings in episode 11 is very deliberate in trying to communicate the various perspectives of the kings and how they clash. It was a very deliberate way of writing that depicted a battle of words. Characters were tarnished, others uplifted and glorified and there was a sense of tension and emotions in there. The intent is there and execution is there.

Just some food for thought on how I feel about the monogatari series' writing.


I'm in the camp that doesn't think every written line needs to be towards character development, or plot advancement, but does think that every line should effectively show character (proper to the scenario's context). You basically nailed it in saying that it's a bit of a realist approach, but kinda went off-rails in implying that it's lesser than the embellished style of talk in Fate/Zero, when I think it's simply a choice of style.

There's the idea of 'overall' cohesiveness for a txt, but I think even that is a fluid goalpost--with restraint, though; I've heard that the Monogatari's have the tendency to ramble on, ramble on some more, then ramble on again, which wouldn't be the best example of that, I agree there.
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
I'm in the camp that doesn't think every written line needs to be towards character development, or plot advancement, but I do think every line should effectively show character (proper to the scenario's context). You basically nailed it in saying that it's a bit of a realist approach, but kinda went off-rails in implying that it's lesser than a focused drama like Fate/Zero, when I think it's simply a choice of style.

There's the idea of 'overall' cohesiveness for a txt, but I think even that is a fluid goalpost--with restraint, though; I've heard that the Monogatari's have the tendency to ramble on, ramble on some more, then ramble on again, which wouldn't be the best example of that, I agree there.

I didn't make it quite clear in the post so I'll elaborate more. I don't think every line of dialogue needs to advance the character's development. Otherwise, what's the point of great flat characters? Dialogue needs to reveal more insight about the character as we get to know them. However, in the monogatari I feel like a good chunk of it is just random conversations that doesn't really delve deep into how they are. Rather it's just a person's particular approach and dialectical mannerisms that are portrayed. In that sense we're learning more about that character but it's really shallow at best.
 
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