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Super Best Friends Thread 8: "You know, we really are the Super Best Friends Play"

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X

Xiraiya

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
The problem for me is it could be better, but it won't change.
Click to expand...

I don't really have a problem with the way it is, I think it's necessary that Smash stay that way, the fact it's not looking like every other fighting game in existence is a good thing.

If you don't like it as a fighting game fan, then you're not the target audience for Smash, more people need to realize that.

I feel kind of bad for Sakurai because he works hard to polish his game as a fun brawl fighter, not as a serious competitive fighting game, and yet because of pressure and demand he's been forced to start looking at it more competitively, which I think takes away part of the spirit of smash.
 
J

JoJo94

Member
Xiraiya said:
I don't really have a problem with the way it is, I think it's necessary that Smash stay that way, the fact it's not looking like every other fighting game in existence is a good thing.

If you don't like it as a fighting game fan, then you're not the target audience for Smash, more people need to realize that.

I feel kind of bad for Sakurai because he works hard to polish his game as a fun brawl fighter, not as a serious competitive fighting game, and yet because of pressure and demand he's been forced to start looking at it more competitively, which I think takes away part of the spirit of smash.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Whenever Liam said on the podcast it's good only problem is it's not Melee I got really annoyed (even though I couldn't tell if he was joking sometimes or not I don't think he was) It's one of those cases were I'm just like let him make the game...which doesn't happen a lot since feedback is important.
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
It doesn't keep me interested at first by a combo system. In doing so, it makes the whole game really awkward to play since there is no reason to block extensively due to how much better dodging is. Now that I think about it, blocking to me seems to not have a purpose. Dodging seems way better. I also like the layout of the clock and health bars on fighting games way better than smash. They haven't improved the terrible hud at all.
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You can perform a shield grab while blocking which is a very helpful tool
 
C

croten

Member
JoJo94 said:
I agree with this. Whenever Liam said on the podcast it's good only problem is it's not Melee I got really annoyed (even though I couldn't tell if he was joking sometimes or not I don't think he was) It's one of those cases were I'm just like let him make the game...which doesn't happen a lot since feedback is important.
Click to expand...

No I agree with Liam. No Smash game can top Melee, I don't mind different games but Melee was perfect. Smash 4 is great, the best one since Melee but it still doesn't play as good as it. I get that Sakurai wants the game to be more of a fun party game but Melee already was.
 
U

Ultimate_Trainer

Member
croten said:
They can't top Melee. No one can.
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Maybe. What made Melee good without the "good" glitches?
JoJo94 said:
This is not aimed towards you, but this is kind of my problem when people talk about changing smash...it feels like they just want it to be a traditional fighting game with nintendo characters sometimes. Again not aimed at you...you just gave me a chance to voice my opinion cause internet.

Edit: also controversial opinion...I don't like Melee as much as Brawl (haven't played the new one yet.)
Click to expand...
There are still many ways to improve the gameplay while still make it a nontraditional fighting game.
Xiraiya said:
I don't really have a problem with the way it is, I think it's necessary that Smash stay that way, the fact it's not looking like every other fighting game in existence is a good thing.

If you don't like it as a fighting game fan, then you're not the target audience for Smash, more people need to realize that.

I feel kind of bad for Sakurai because he works hard to polish his game as a fun brawl fighter, not as a serious competitive fighting game, and yet because of pressure and demand he's been forced to start looking at it more competitively, which I think takes away part of the spirit of smash.
Click to expand...
Atleast brawlers have combos. I really hate playing with normals since it doesn't feel as good as pulling off a combos. Even with combos, it still feels different from a traditional fighting game.

I have to agree with the not being my demographic. Sakurai works hard to make it fun for everyone.
 
X

Xiraiya

Member
JoJo94 said:
I agree with this. Whenever Liam said on the podcast it's good only problem is it's not Melee I got really annoyed (even though I couldn't tell if he was joking sometimes or not I don't think he was) It's one of those cases were I'm just like let him make the game...which doesn't happen a lot since feedback is important.
Click to expand...

I like a really good fighting game, but that's not how I look at Smash, and I think it's unreasonable for people to expect Smash to change into that direction.

I've been into different competitive areas for a multitude of genres, not even just fighting, and I did well enough, but I just stop enjoying games at that point, when it's broken down into nothing but pure numbers and reflexes and all that, where the game is played in such a serious way that it may as well be stripped down to basic shapes and colors and pure mechanical function and nothing else, it's not fun, there's no real point to it being a game at that point, it just becomes about stroking your ego, which is well.. laughable.
 
J

JoJo94

Member
croten said:
No I agree with Liam. No Smash game can top Melee, I don't mind different games but Melee was perfect. Smash 4 is great, the best one since Melee but it still doesn't play as good as it. I get that Sakurai wants the game to be more of a fun party game but Melee already was.
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I wouldn't say it was perfect honestly. It's just that people praise Melee way to much in my opinion that it feels like a cult now...that may be extreme but man it feels like that. Plus like I mentioned before I personally don't see why Melee is that good it's fun of course like all Smash games but to me it's just good not amazing...plus some of that roster was really dumb...looking at you Pichu.

Ultimate_Trainer said:
Maybe. What made Melee good without the "good" glitches?

There are still many ways to improve the gameplay while still make it a nontraditional fighting game.

Atleast brawlers have combos. I really hate playing with normals since it doesn't feel as good as pulling off a combos. Even with combos, it still feels different from a traditional fighting game.

I have to agree with the not being my demographic. Sakurai works hard to make it fun for everyone.
Click to expand...

I agree there are ways to improve it, it's just that when the trailers were coming out for the new one. I honestly kept seeing people say it should have combos, or get rid of the Ko system...I was just using this place to vent really.

Xiraiya said:
I like a really good fighting game, but that's not how I look at Smash, and I think it's unreasonable for people to expect Smash to change into that direction.

I've been into different competitive areas for a multitude of genres, not even just fighting, and I did well enough, but I just stop enjoying games at that point, when it's broken down into nothing but pure numbers and reflexes and all that, where the game is played in such a serious way that it may as well be stripped down to basic shapes and colors and pure mechanical function and nothing else, it's not fun, there's no real point to it being a game at that point, it just becomes about stroking your ego, which is well.. laughable.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm one of those people that enjoy that Smash can be competitive at times and taken seriously but overall I feel like it should just be a fun game that doesn't take itself too seriously. (Not saying playing competitively isn't fun though I know that it is for some people.)

Your second part is probably why I'm can never get too competitive. With fighting games recently I have gone a bit further and practicing what goes with what, but overall I don't like getting top competitive personally because then it feels less like a game and more of a process. (Again I know some people have fun playing that way, I just don't personally.)
 
U

Ultimate_Trainer

Member
ShakuganSan said:
You can perform a shield grab while blocking which is a very helpful tool
Click to expand...

Banana Aeon said:
Blocking has it's uses. It's a way to avoid damage, without leaving yourself open to frametraps. Shieldgrabs also exist.
Click to expand...
Ok they aren't totally useless, but they seem to make the game unfun due to the balance. Being safe from guard to grab seems really broken.

edit: I know I'm thinking this from a competitive standpoint, but it works for the other players too
 
3

360pages

Member
Morning Frinders.

Smash 4 is easily close to Melee, and I still love the game, honestly the only smash game that felt off was Brawl, but that was because I didn't even have fun during party mode. Though Subspace was interesting.
 
R

RecursiveFault

Banned
croten said:
Melee was fast and had combos
Click to expand...
Not just that, basic physics math felt amazing in Melee. And so basic things like dashing and then jumping kept the momentum from your dash.

When brawl slowed the game down and took that out, things like that really bothered me even as a casual player.
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
Ok they aren't totally useless, but they seem to make the game unfun due to the balance. Being safe from guard to grab seems really broken.

edit: I know I'm thinking this from a competitive standpoint, but it works for the other players too
Click to expand...

If they start to shield grab too often then grab them right back, they normally expect you to hit their shield, you could also bait out their grab, a whiffed grab is still punishable. There are so many ways to deal with problems like these
 
U

Ultimate_Trainer

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
Not just that, basic physics math felt amazing in Melee. And so basic things like dashing and then jumping kept the momentum from your dash.

When brawl slowed the game down and took that out, things like that really bothered me even as a casual player.
Click to expand...
I really like the idea of momentum in dashes. Skullgirls had that somewhat and it seems really good. I hope they add that back in some day. I'll go check out Melee later then.
 
3

360pages

Member
Just to talk, even if I can beat Little Mac with a little work, it's still super annoying to fight him a lot. Though I had some really awesome matches against a random that used Zero suit and little mac,
 
R

RecursiveFault

Banned
360pages said:
Just to talk, even if I can beat Little Mac with a little work, it's still super annoying to fight him a lot. Though I had some really awesome matches against a random that used Zero suit and little mac,
Click to expand...
The type of pressure he puts up is kinda frustrating. It's simple to counter, but doing it over and over is a bit annoying, you're right. The quality of who you're playing against helps this too though. Bad Mac players are just annoying.
Ultimate_Trainer said:
I really like the idea of momentum in dashes. Skullgirls had that somewhat and it seems really good. I hope they add that back in some day. I'll go check out Melee later then.
Click to expand...
Note shakugansan's post btw. There's a ton of depth in Smash, it's just nontraditional.
 
B

Banana Aeon

Member
Like I keep saying, I think Melee is the greatest fighting game ever created. I can talk forever on how I love the movement, how I love the speed, how I love the balance, how I love the appropriately aggressive gameplay, how I love the feel, etc etc.
 
J

JoJo94

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
The type of pressure he puts up is kinda frustrating. It's simple to counter, but doing it over and over is a bit annoying, you're right. The quality of who you're playing against helps this too though. Bad Mac players are just annoying.

Note shakugansan's post btw. There's a ton of depth in Smash, it's just nontraditional.
Click to expand...

But at least they'll kill themselves right?

Also I usually say I'm a good Smash player...then I remembered last night that I have only played against friends who suck...so for all I know I actually am terrible at the game until I play against people in here and find out.

Banana Aeon said:
Like I keep saying, I think Melee is the greatest fighting game ever created. I can talk forever on how I love the movement, how I love the speed, how I love the balance, how I love the appropriately aggressive gameplay, how I love the feel, etc etc.
Click to expand...

SO when's the wedding jk
(I am not being a jerk just messing with you)
 
R

RecursiveFault

Banned
Banana Aeon said:
Like I keep saying, I think Melee is the greatest fighting game ever created. I can talk forever on how I love the movement, how I love the speed, how I love the balance, how I love the appropriately aggressive gameplay, how I love the feel, etc etc.
Click to expand...
It literally feels perfect. I try to play my old main of Samus in Smash 4 and it just aches feeling limited in the new engine. I love Smash 4, but it's not Melee.
JoJo94 said:
But at least they'll kill themselves right?

Also I usually say I'm a good Smash player...then I remembered last night that I have only played against friends who suck...so for all I know I actually am terrible at the game until I play against people in here and find out.
Click to expand...
It's impressive how much I've improved in the past year of Melee and a few weeks of 4. You'd think you'd git gud when you've been playing Melee since release.
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
360pages said:
Just to talk, even if I can beat Little Mac with a little work, it's still super annoying to fight him a lot. Though I had some really awesome matches against a random that used Zero suit and little mac,
Click to expand...

The two most common play styles i see with little mac are the ones who always dash attack without a second thought and the ones who dash then roll backwards multiple times hoping to find an opening for a dash attack
 
J

JoJo94

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
It literally feels perfect. I try to play my old main of Samus in Smash 4 and it just aches feeling limited in the new engine. I love Smash 4, but it's not Melee.

It's impressive how much I've improved in the past year of Melee and a few weeks of 4. You'd think you'd git gud when you've been playing Melee since release.
Click to expand...

I thought I was good because I played it for hours and tried to challenge myself so much during it...then I would just do stupid gimmick matches for fun...pokeball and assist trophies only were hell but so stupidly fun.
 
3

360pages

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
The type of pressure he puts up is kinda frustrating. It's simple to counter, but doing it over and over is a bit annoying, you're right. The quality of who you're playing against helps this too though. Bad Mac players are just annoying.

Note shakugansan's post btw. There's a ton of depth in Smash, it's just nontraditional.
Click to expand...

I find characters with a good air game helps.

With that said, Smash is one of those games you actually don't have to practice too much and it's easy to pick up on some things just by playing a lot. Just by seeing other people do something you can probably learn it do to its simple control scheme.

Also why is it one or the other with smash? Melee I had just as many goofy matches as I did one on one so I did with Smash 4 It's weird that Sakrai is trying to make it only one when playing games differently from as from what they were intended is something he of all people should be promoting.
 
U

Ultimate_Trainer

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
Note shakugansan's post btw. There's a ton of depth in Smash, it's just nontraditional.
Click to expand...
ShakuganSan said:
If they start to shield grab too often then grab them right back, they normally expect you to hit their shield, you could also bait out their grab, a whiffed grab is still punishable. There are so many ways to deal with problems like these
Click to expand...
I'm starting to see. I guess its a different variation of the rock, paper, scissors ideals like rock paper scissors lizard spock.

edit: why are smash attacks in anyways? I'd just made the push back on normals way better.
 
3

360pages

Member
ShakuganSan said:
The two most common play styles i see with little mac are the ones who always dash attack without a second thought and the ones who dash then roll backwards multiple times hoping to find an opening for a dash attack
Click to expand...

The second type are kind of irritating honestly. And I can't blame the players since it makes sense for them to do so. He has little recovery and you really need to work against in in For Glory.
 
3

360pages

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
They preform wholly different functions. I recommend you actually try it out.
Click to expand...

Is he talking about Meto Smashes or Actually just regular smash attacks. Because while getting rid of either is super silly I can see how some kind find meto Smashes kind of useless without proper timing or depending on their character.
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
I'm starting to see. I guess its a different variation of the rock, paper, scissors ideals like rock paper scissors lizard spock.

edit: why are smash attacks in anyways? I'd just made the push back on normals way better.
Click to expand...

I like to think of smash as a giant spacing game. It depends on which characters smash attacks, some are good, some are bad, some characters have quick smash attacks and can be used as a punish for quite a bit of damage while slower characters like Ike tend to use more normals for their punish

360pages said:
The second type are kind of irritating honestly. And I can't blame the players since it makes sense for them to do so. He has little recovery and you really need to work against in in For Glory.
Click to expand...

It's mostly a game of patience with those types, projectiles will surely make him break first, I think mario is honestly one of the best counters to him. FLUDD and cape works wonders
 
3

360pages

Member
ShakuganSan said:
I like to think of smash as a giant spacing game. It depends on which characters smash attacks, some are good, some are bad, some characters have quick smash attacks and can be used as a punish for quite a bit of damage while slower characters like Ike tend to use more normals for their punish



It's mostly a game of patience with those types, projectiles will surely make him break first, I think mario is honestly one of the best counters to him. FLUDD and cape works wonders
Click to expand...

Yeah DEDEDE and Bowser Front smash are in kill range as soon as the enemy reaches 40-50 making them able to take more punishment.

With that said, smash attacks as a whole seem a bit better in this game. Kirby feels like he has more kill range, and slowly characters got a buff too.
 
C

croten

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
No. I still think they should use percentages. Is the percentages the increased rate of pushback?
Click to expand...

tumblr_l2mqiwKgs01qzhp0eo1_500.jpg
 
3

360pages

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
No. I still think they should use percentages. Is the percentages the increased rate of pushback?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but I do think smash attacks are really important.

It's fundamental really, it gives every character some sort of charge or time move. Some characters move forward slightly others stay stationary. I think some characters like Fox and Kirby would honestly be worse without smash attacks even with increased push back.
 
3

360pages

Member
Wow they really just shoved all the legendary pokemon in to the remakes huh? Really helpful for those who don't have Gen 4 and 5 games to transfer up. (They have all none event legends outside of the Kanto ones since you can get those in X/Y)

Though this pretty much makes post game legend hunting.
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
Ultimate_Trainer said:
I guess, but didn't they put in that rage pushback mechanic in Sm4sh?
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Rage pushback? i don't know if your referring to the rage effect or vectoring
Rage effect is essentially a comeback(?) mechanic where the higher your percent, the further you knock your opponent away

Vectoring allows you to slightly control your knockback distance but that was removing in the newest patch in favour for DI
 
3

360pages

Member
ShakuganSan said:
Rage pushback? i don't know if your referring to the rage effect or vectoring
Rage effect is essentially a comeback(?) mechanic where the higher your percent, the further you knock your opponent away

Vectoring allows you to slightly control your knockback distance but that was removing in the newest patch in favour for DI
Click to expand...

DI?

Also, yes the rage feature is there. Though I see it less as a comeback mechanic and more of making matches quicker.
 
3

360pages

Member
Also, they better not remove free flying in the next pokemon game. (Honestly, there are so many features that should stay even if they are just for appeal.)
 
S

ShakuganSan

Member
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