passes as fun? i don't care if you "beat it on your first try lol". it was luck. it has little to do with skill.
luigi's purple coin chaos
: that's fun and rewarding. it requires precision and tests your jumping and dodging skills (even though i usually despise the clone levels since they're just as arbitrary). but
passes as fun? i don't care if you "beat it on your first try lol". it was luck. it has little to do with skill.
luigi's purple coin chaos
: that's fun and rewarding. it requires precision and tests your jumping and dodging skills (even though i usually despise the clone levels since they're just as arbitrary). but
i didn't really think about whether it was luck or skill. i didn't get it on my first try, but i played it, tweaked my strategy when i failed the first time, and i came out on the other end. i don't think the whole thing is tantamount to rolling a dice, otherwise you could just wave the wii remote senselessly and complete it one-in-ten times. maybe there are parts that are pure luck. but skill plays a big part.
it's not the best star in the game or anything, for sure.
Agreed. The ball rolling stages are a piece of cake and control perfectly. I think some people just find it hard to accept that skill with traditional controllers doesn't always translate to skill with motion controllers. The manta races, ball rolling, etc were almost too easy. Keep a steady hand, and tilt the controller gracefully, that is all there is to those segments.
i'm blaming the game. you're bold enough to claim that i lack the ability to control the ball and my momentum, so i see nothing wrong with insisting that i don't lack any skill in that department and that it's the game's fault. i'm saying it's NO FUN, not that it bothers me that i have to try so many times. i've beaten and mastered much harder games, requiring a lot more skill (that i had more fun with). for the record: i beat the bird levels (also motion control) after only a few tries but still thought they were complete bullshit. i thought the
rainbow road purple coins
were bullshit after only having tried it twice. it has nothing to do with me getting frustrated because i can't beat it. when i enjoy something i don't mind trying over and over again (i beat mm10 without getting hit, that was both much harder and more fun than
I mean, you dont need to enjoy it for it to be still heavily reliant on skill to accomplish. Just because you dont enjoy it doesn't mean there's some crazy massive luck factor that's preventing you from finishing it.
I mean, you dont need to enjoy it for it to be still heavily reliant on skill to accomplish. Just because you dont enjoy it doesn't mean there's some crazy massive luck factor that's preventing you from finishing it.
hmm. i think it's two things coming together for me: i already think there's a lot of precision lost with just having 3 dimensions. to this day i prefer 2d platformers. i found this quote on kotaku the other day (yes, yes, i know, of all places...) and it rings true for me:
kotaku said:
Under even the skilled hands of Nintendo's top creators, a Mario that can move in three dimensions, rather than two, will always be less reliable to control and more prone to imprecise player input. The 2D design in Galaxy is welcome, but it also is a reminder that some of the 3D stuff in this game and the other 3D Marios is tougher because, well, 3D Mario level design is less tight than 2D design. By definition, 3D levels must include an extra dimension. That dimension is an extra variable that allows error, player confusion and frustration. The 2D levels prove to be a reminder that, ok, maybe 3D levels are never going to be as sublime as those in 2D.
now on top of that you have the imprecision of motion control (in a genre that very much REQUIRES precision). now, even if you don't have a problem with galaxy's motion control levels, you have to at least admit that they are LESS precise than moving and jumping around with analog stick and buttons, right? i enjoy platforming in 3d alone just fine (even though i prefer 2d). but when you have those two factors coming together: 3d platforming AND motion control, that just bothers me, that's too much imprecision and arbitrariness for me. so quite often, even if i manage to beat something on my first try, it doesn't feel as rewarding because i get this sinking feeling that it was to some degree arbitrary.
All well and true, but saying "for me" is entirely the point. I, personally, dont find Mario nor any of the ball rolling controls lacking precision. At all. For me, a lack of precision is when I feel the game is putting up roadblocks on controls, or there's something I cant wrap my head around. When controlling the ball with the Wii remote I always feel like I'm in complete control, and whenever I screw up I never feel its because of precision issues or something beyond me making the mistake.
Beating that particular level didn't take me one try, but each retry had me closer and closer to the goal as I learned and understood what I needed to do.
Its a shame you dont enjoy them, and I'm not asking you to. To each their own. But, for me, there are no precision issues or control issues and people saying they cant beat it ultimately, in my opinion, comes down to the player's skill, not the game.
I just finished with 73 stars a few minutes ago and have no desire to go back and get anymore. Shockingly this is my first game in 2010 that Im disappointed with.
I dont know, I got really bored with this one and towards the end actually wanted it to just end. All the magic and sense of wonder just wasnt here. Its far too familiar and I guess I just got sick of it.
Its obviously not a bad game, but I really wouldnt call it amazing either. Its just good and nothing more in my eyes. By the way this is coming from someone who thought the original was GOTG! : (
From all the games Ive played this year Id rank them like this: Red Dead Redemption >> Bayonetta >> Heavy Rain >> God of War III >> Super Mario Galaxy 2.
EDIT: I thought the last Bowser level and boss fight were both amazingly good! The music was soooooooo good! Definitely the highlight of the whole game for me!
now on top of that you have the imprecision of motion control (in a genre that very much REQUIRES precision). now, even if you don't have a problem with galaxy's motion control levels, you have to at least admit that they are LESS precise than moving and jumping around with analog stick and buttons, right? i enjoy platforming in 3d alone just fine (even though i prefer 2d). but when you have those two factors coming together: 3d platforming AND motion control, that just bothers me, that's too much imprecision and arbitrariness for me. so quite often, even if i manage to beat something on my first try, it doesn't feel as rewarding because i get this sinking feeling that it was to some degree arbitrary.
Not this shit again!
Motion controls in SMG1 & 2 work just fine. They are precise, polished and intuitive, if you cant play it, you suck at it.
Its that simple.
And dual analog stick controller in these games? UGH
well, i don't wanna argue for much longer. i think we've both made our points clear. i'd just like to add one thing:
EatChildren said:
But, for me, there are no precision issues or control issues and people saying they cant beat it ultimately, in my opinion, comes down to the player's skill, not the game.
you misinterpreted my initial statement if you think i said i "can't beat it" and that's the source of my frustration and lack of enjoyment. again: i beat the bird levels easily but still thought they were no fun. and again: i've been stuck on other stars for longer and thought they were enjoyable and i was always motivated to try again. in fact, the only thing i ever proposed was that it's no fun:
jarosh said:
does anyone truly believe that purple coins on rainbow road passes as fun? i don't care if you "beat it on your first try lol". it was luck. it has little to do with skill.
what i meant when i said i don't care if anyone beat it on their first try was that i don't think it's a valid argument, since it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not your experience is positive or negative. and i think that no one can claim that there's no learning curve to the ball rolling, so beating it on your first try can't be anything but luck.
it puzzles me to hear that anyone could enjoy this particular star and i don't wanna dress it up and sell it as a more sophisticated critique. of course people enjoy all kinds of things that i can't wrap my head around. i know a lot of people wonder how anyone would put up with trying to beat mega man games without getting hit, but somehow i enjoy that. it all boils down to whether i/we think the game is at fault or our potentially lacking skill. and in this case i'm blaming the game. but for even the hardest parts of nsmb wii (or mega man 10 if you want) i've always blamed no one but myself whenever i died.
MYE said:
Not this shit again!
Motion controls in SMG1 & 2 work just fine. They are precise, polished and intuitive, if you cant play it, you suck at it.
Its that simple.
but i can play it and i CAN beat it. i have beaten all except for one of the motion control level. i'm at 116 stars. yet, i still didn't enjoy most of them. is it so hard to understand what i'm talking about? i don't like most of the motion control stars. i never claimed they were impossible or that i'm super bad at them. i just don't find them much fun.
MYE said:
And dual analog stick controller in these games? UGH
Because the precision is more than serviceable for what you need to accomplish? Why settle for any analogue stick or Wii pointer for aiming of any kind when a mouse is superior?
Why indeed. Only in the cases of consoles, one cannot use a mouse. It's literally not an option. So you're forced to take what you get. Here, there is an option to use different controls, but they aren't being used for no reason.
Because its not inferior, its adequate.
The game was designed with those controls in mind and they work perfectly.
Being unable to enjoy motion controls is one thing, but these are as precise as they need to be and are part of what makes these games so good.
The rolling ball levels, seriously? People have trouble controlling it and blame the controls? ~
Well, at least its not as bad as complaining about how "imprecise" and "laggy" Mario's spin attack is >.>
indeed. what makes you think i WOULND'T use a mouse if it was available for any fps game exclusive to consoles? the analog stick is right there on the nunchuck. it's more precise. why not use that for the ball rolling? rock mario uses it and i LOVED that rock mario star that was similar to the ball rolling levels.
MYE said:
Because its not inferior, its adequate.
The game was designed with those controls in mind and they work perfectly.
Being unable to enjoy motion controls is one thing, but these are as precise as they need to be and are part of what makes these games so good.
The rolling ball levels, seriously? People have trouble controlling it and blame the controls? ~
Well, at least its not as bad as complaining about how "imprecise" and "laggy" Mario's spin attack is >.>
They're more than serviceable. They're precise and functional.
Why indeed. Only in the cases of consoles, one cannot use a mouse. It's literally not an option. So you're forced to take what you get. Here, there is an option to use different controls, but they aren't being used for no reason.
But less precise and functional than the alternative controls.
The problem is people seem perfectly fine with settling for inferior controls for NO REASON. Stop arguing with jarosh if you can see this but simply don't want to be critical of Super Mario Galaxy.
Nobody is arguing that you cannot beat these levels using the control scheme as is. I can beat tons of terrible games that have terrible control schemes, and the controls are still terrible.
This is Mario. "adequate", "serviceable" is not the standard for which this series is known. We should not allow gimmickry to blind us to the ideal
I've played this game off and on over the past few weeks due to my SSF4 addiction, and made it up the 62 stars. But my internet went out for a while (and still is out) so I jumped back into it. Over the past 3 days, I got 40 more stars.
So after beating the game, moaned after finding out that
I had the fight Bouldergeist and do the Luigi purple coin challenge again. Surprisingly made it through that boss stage in the special world only getting hit twice. Missed the comet medal though, so I have to go back to it again . Haven't bothered the purple coin challenge yet.
But man, I don't know why I stopped playing, this game is just magnificent. After getting the last few stars, I might actually beat the second story in Muramasa (which is funny because it's my favorite game of last year, yet I've only beaten one story :lol).
But less precise and functional than the alternative controls.
The problem is people seem perfectly fine with settling for inferior controls for NO REASON. Stop arguing with jarosh if you can see this but simply don't want to be critical of Super Mario Galaxy.
I think you must be mistaken then, because I never said I didn't want to be critical of Galaxy, and if you'd like I'll happily have a PM back and forth with you where we can bring up a number of criticisms across both titles. My reply was, and always has been, in response to this part of jarosh's original post.
jarosh said:
i don't care if you "beat it on your first try lol". it was luck. it has little to do with skill.
As I've made clear, this is incorrect. Skill still plays a predominant factor in beating the level.
Nobody is arguing that you cannot beat these levels using the control scheme as is. I can beat tons of terrible games that have terrible control schemes, and the controls are still terrible.
You're right. The series is known for a paramount of high quality platforming design and control. I'm happy, then, that the ball rolling stages fit wonderfully among the rest of the franchise's top quality offerings.
I thought I was the only one. Granted, I'm not even close to finishing the game(Played up to the
hammer
boss yesterday) but I couldn't help but to notice that the game wasn't really doing anything for me after a point. Maybe I was just tired. The controls are fine.
But less precise and functional than the alternative controls.
The problem is people seem perfectly fine with settling for inferior controls for NO REASON. Stop arguing with jarosh if you can see this but simply don't want to be critical of Super Mario Galaxy.
Nobody is arguing that you cannot beat these levels using the control scheme as is. I can beat tons of terrible games that have terrible control schemes, and the controls are still terrible.
This is Mario. "adequate", "serviceable" is not the standard for which this series is known. We should not allow gimmickry to blind us to the ideal
You're the one saying they are inferior, not me.
When i said "adequate" i wasnt making up excuses for poor controls. I didnt feel more in control of Mario when i played Sunshine or 64. In fact, i never had so much fun controlling Mario in a 3D space as i did in both Galaxy games and yes, good motion controls are a big part of this.
I find the rolling ball controls in particular to be far more precise and subtle than a button-or-stick alternative. They take a bit of learning and gentleness is all, fingertips instead of fist.
I forgot about the cylinder thing. That was pretty much the only stuff I thought was pretty surprising and unique. I didn't care much for the drill aside from the purple coin challenge.
But less precise and functional than the alternative controls.
The problem is people seem perfectly fine with settling for inferior controls for NO REASON. Stop arguing with jarosh if you can see this but simply don't want to be critical of Super Mario Galaxy.
Nobody is arguing that you cannot beat these levels using the control scheme as is. I can beat tons of terrible games that have terrible control schemes, and the controls are still terrible.
This is Mario. "adequate", "serviceable" is not the standard for which this series is known. We should not allow gimmickry to blind us to the ideal
controlling the ball with the motion controls is inherently better than the octagon control stick. there's infinitely more control over your actions and something something something something
110 stars, and i finally found the best way to play this game!
since i got the game when it first came out i have been working hard trying to get as much star as possible, and i kind of felt like getting star was a "job", it was really fun, but sometimes i just feel i have to do it
but last night while i was stuck getting some stars, i try to replayy some level i completed before, and it was a blast! i felt like i got to explore each galaxy more, with out having the pressure of rushing to the stars!
its so enjoyable, i guess i will start exploring each level again!
The second lot of 120 stars I found to be really enjoyable. Nothing overly special and not without its flaws, but a much more interesting time game extender than simply having to replay the exact same stars with Luigi like the first game.
No, a traditional controller is not more precise than a tilt sensor, not by a longshot. Tilting your wrist provides you with a FAR greater degree of precision and range of motion than waggling your thumb around does. How can you even dispute that? Joystick controls are fine for controlling your character in games where you can just run around at full speed with requiring much precision but anything requiring subtle, precise movements are much better served with tilt controls.
Seriously, if you think this or this or this or this or this or this would be even remotely possible with a joystick then you're fucking delusional and there's no sense even arguing with you.
KNOCK KNOCK
who's there
THE ONLY THING WORSE THAN POINTLESS MOTION CONTROLS
the only thing worse than pointless motion controls who?
A DEBATE ON GAF ABOUT MOTION CONTROLS USAGE THAT WE'VE HAD A BAZILLION TIMES BEFORE
2 stars to 120.
sooooo not looking forward to those last 2.
goddamn luigi's purple coins
makes a comeback. and now with friends.
and
poltergeist rock??
speedrun? that thing eats up half the time by itself!
also, flip out galaxy comet coin had me stumped. that must've been the most out of the way comet coin to get, despite dangling in front of your face the whole time
Stay close to him, shoot the rocks with starbits while they're hovering, but don't go nuts and shoot the bomb ghosts! This strategy works even with the arms present.
also, flip out galaxy comet coin had me stumped. that must've been the most out of the way comet coin to get, despite dangling in front of your face the whole time
It only gave me trouble because I kept dying trying to get it until I broke down and said "fuck it" and went to finish the level, only to figure out how to get it as soon as I saw the answer :lol
Finished the game today with 103 stars, and of course as I said this is more than a simple GOTY, it's one of those "once in a 3-4 years" game.
It will be my GOTY with Halo Reach for sure.
Hell, I could talk a lot more about Mario Galaxy, but it's one of those games where you think "fuck gaming forums, I could be playing right now, back to it".
What I can say is that, as you can see, I didn't finish the game with ALL the stars; I did that in Mario Galaxy 1, then I discovered you couldn't get 120 stars before the final boss and... well, damn, I had all those purple coins to get AFTER the final boss.
So this time, I changed things.
Now I have 110 stars and 43 badges.
Luigi's Purple Coins was so much easier compared to Galaxy 1, but even in Galaxy 1 I never found it that hard.
Actually I was so cocky that
I did Luigi's Purple Coins WITH Luigi just to make it a little more harder thanks to Luigi's soapy awesome controls.
I never got 120 stars in Mario 64 and Sunshine, nor did I get 150 stars in Mario 64 DS... but this is Galaxy 2, and just like Galaxy I'm going to do it.
I can't believe some people finish the game with 70 stars and then play something else. D:
As for me, 120 is the least I could do, but 100%ing the game... hm, dunno
Amir0x said:
his argument is not they are imprecise, but that they are less precise than traditional controls for these types of segments.
This is an inarguable fact. Why settle for something inferior?
Those "on-top-of-a-ball" levels with the analog nunchuk stick would be a waste of a star.
Thanks to motion controls they are extremely fun, refreshing, fun, well made and fun.
Mario Galaxy is THE ONE game that has "minigames" or small sections with perfect motion controls and people still whine.
. Haven't bothered the purple coin challenge yet.