Super Mario Maker: Not all tools available from the start, unlock over 9 days

ika said:
Maybe if Nintendo just published last christmas this game as shown at 2014 E3 with only one toolbar and just SMB / NSMBU styles and just the overground theme for... like $15-20 and making us pay $5 DLC packs every month until the content we have now, even if we ended paying more and waiting months for the same content, some people would consider that a better approach for the game than this 9-day deployment.

The human nature... :p
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That is implying that they are working on new stuff and selling it as DLC. This is stuff that is 100% finished. It's not coming 9 days later because they didn't have it ready in time. It's not 9 days late DLC. It's 9 days late content for everyone that buys the game no matter when they buy it.
 
ElectricBlanketFire said:
I don't hate it. I find it annoying and arbitrary. And that's perfectly reasonable.
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Thats just it.

The reasonable dissenters (like myself) arent even arguing against content being locked, its how its being locked.

Starting off with based tool, and gradually obtain more; ok cool. Thats a stable of video gaming.

But putting it behind an arbitrary timer is whats ridiculous.

The timer doesnt measure how well you use the starting content, how competent you are with whats available, preventing "troll" levels or anything, its just behind a time lock, and thats it.

So the "Well now we can get use to the tools before getting more advance" reply is a fallacy (imo, to what we are dissenting against), because there are better ways to implement that. Hell MK8 does it by collect coins.
 
Justified said:
Thats just it.

The reasonable dissenters (like myself) areent even arguing against content being locked, its how its being locked.

Starting off with based tool, and gradually obtain more; ok cool. Thats a stable of video gaming.

But putting it behind an arbitrary timer is whats ridiculous.

The timer doesnt measure how well you use the starting content, how competent you are with whats available, preventing "troll" levels or anything, its just behind a time lock, and thats it.

So the "Well now we can get use to the tools before getting more advance" reply is a fallacy (imo, to what we are dissenting against), because there are better ways to implement that.
Click to expand...

I concur.
 
Justified said:
Thats just it.

The reasonable dissenters (like myself) arent even arguing against content being locked, its how its being locked.

Starting off with based tool, and gradually obtain more; ok cool. Thats a stable of video gaming.

But putting it behind an arbitrary timer is whats ridiculous.

The timer doesnt measure how well you use the starting content, how competent you are with whats available, preventing "troll" levels or anything, its just behind a time lock, and thats it.

So the "Well now we can get use to the tools before getting more advance" reply is a fallacy (imo, to what we are dissenting against), because there are better ways to implement that. Hell MK8 does it by collect coins.
Click to expand...

So far there is nothing in level editors to gauge your content for improvement before getting new parts and assets. Everything has been either through skill or your time. Through skill means not everyone is not going to get them, through your own time means waiting and endless repetition.

You could argue that waiting a day for each content pack is more rigid compared to purchases, but skill requires some story content or something like it for you to 100% to collect all parts and assets. Beating 100 randomly downloaded Mario levels in a row is not a good workaround either because it would be totally unfair to a lot of players even like myself.

There is nothing to gauge unless it has some sort of learning videos and progression system but that's not even what Mario Paint or Mario Maker is about. There is no progression. Ever. It's only limited by your imagination. That is the basis of design of this game, of Mario Paint, of the Mario Artist series.
 
Zomba13 said:
That is implying that they are working on new stuff and selling it as DLC. This is stuff that is 100% finished. It's not coming 9 days later because they didn't have it ready in time. It's not 9 days late DLC. It's 9 days late content for everyone that buys the game no matter when they buy it.
Click to expand...

The point is: this is just a 9-day progression for the tools of this editor, 9 days that will pass fast enough playing online and sample levels and messing with the tools we already have. It can be somewhat bothering not to be able to make a Ghost House day 1, I agree, but it's not like you have to pay to unlock or wait several weeks or months until Nintendo enables it, or to play a long story campaign to unlock everything.

Some people are making a big deal of something that it's not, and my point was that could be really worse if they would decided to do what I said in my previous post: just launch a barebones game and updating every month with paid DLC, in the disk or not. You know there're games out there doing this kind of things. I'm sure we'll get DLC with more themes, enemies and power-ups, that's for sure (I hope they bring slopes), but we'll have a pretty solid editor already.
 
If I understood the video correctly, this is a valid approach:

-> Start playing, design for 5 minutes, "schedule" the next delivery.

-> Go into system clock, put it forward 24 hours

-> Launch game again, design for 5 minutes

-> Repeat 9 times, save, turn back clock


It should take less than an hour to unlock everything, no? What am I missing?
 
Neverfade said:
The dumb fucking hoops people shouldn't have to jump through.
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...no, I believe I listed precisely the hoops, to the best of my knowledge.

Am I missing something?

I never took a position on whether I like the idea or not, I'm just trying to understand how it actually works.
 
Kind of annoying, I agree, but in the grand scheme of things it's really not a big deal considering how much content this game will offer and allow us to create.
 
hawk2025 said:
If I understood the video correctly, this is a valid approach:

-> Start playing, design for 5 minutes, "schedule" the next delivery.

-> Go into system clock, put it forward 24 hours

-> Launch game again, design for 5 minutes

-> Repeat 9 times, save, turn back clock


It should take less than an hour to unlock everything, no? What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Sounds like a waste of an hour when they could've just given you the option to use everything.

It might not even work.
 
hawk2025 said:
...no, I believe I listed precisely the hoops, to the best of my knowledge.

Am I missing something?

I never took a position on whether I like the idea or not, I'm just trying to understand how it actually works.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll rephrase. That people have to jump through dumb fucking hoops.
 
For fuck's sake, people.

I understand it's still a waste of an hour. I'm asking if this is what we expect to be the case at this point, or if I'm missing anything. I understand how patently ridiculous it is to have to speed up your system clock to unlock features.

Can you drop your fucking guards for 30 seconds?
 
RE_Player said:
Nintendo
Click to expand...

Ldt72.gif
 
hawk2025 said:
For fuck's sake, people.

I understand it's still a waste of an hour. I'm asking if this is what we expect to be the case at this point, or if I'm missing anything. I understand how patently ridiculous it is to have to speed up your system clock to unlock features.

Can you drop your fucking guards for 30 seconds?
Click to expand...

We have no idea at this point.
 
hawk2025 said:
For fuck's sake, people.

I understand it's still a waste of an hour. I'm asking if this is what we expect to be the case at this point, or if I'm missing anything.

Can you drop your fucking guards for 30 seconds?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "the case"?

The case for me is I get all the content in 9 days, or perhaps longer as some days I probably won't play it.
 
ElectricBlanketFire said:
We have no idea at this point.
Click to expand...

Thanks :)

urfe said:
What do you mean by "the case"?

The case for me is I get all the content in 9 days, or perhaps longer as some days I probably won't play it.
Click to expand...

The case as in "changing the system clock will work", versus an extra layer of weirdness that would somehow revert your save back to locked content if you try to do it.
But I suppose there's no more information out at this point, so we have no way of knowing yet.
 
Considering the amount of time most people will spend with that game, that's not a big deal whatsoever.
 
zeopower6 said:
How exactly is this going to be reviewed? Are they going to have everything unlocked at the get go?
Click to expand...

Reviewer copies seem to have every thing unlocked. IGN have been playing with the full version and have been able to make fun complex levels. It'll be reviewed with everything unlocked from the start and only the sites that notice it's different in the actual version will mention anything.

-Horizon- said:
I mean looking at the Mario Maker videos that IGN put up, they seem to have a lot of stuff available.
Click to expand...

It's such a shame seeing those videos and knowing that they could have been having so much more fun if they were limited to just goombas and basic blocks before slowly unlocking things while their skill as Master Mario Level Artisans increased as they spent time daily in the level forge hammering out new and exciting pieces of art with limited toolsets dictated by the god kings at Nintendo. Everyone knows the best art is made when you are told to ignore half the colours.
 
hawk2025 said:
For fuck's sake, people.

I understand it's still a waste of an hour. I'm asking if this is what we expect to be the case at this point, or if I'm missing anything. I understand how patently ridiculous it is to have to speed up your system clock to unlock features.

Can you drop your fucking guards for 30 seconds?
Click to expand...

Apologies, I guess I just read your question from a weird POV.

zeopower6 said:
How exactly is this going to be reviewed? Are they going to have everything unlocked at the get go?
Click to expand...

Hopefully via a 9 piece expose. Day 1: How I wrapped my mind around how blocks work.
 
Nanashrew said:
So far there is nothing in level editors to gauge your content for improvement before getting new parts and assets. Everything has been either through skill or your time. Through skill means not everyone is not going to get them, through your own time means waiting and endless repetition.

You could argue that waiting a day for each content pack is more rigid compared to purchases, but skill requires some story content or something like it for you to 100% to collect all parts and assets. Beating 100 randomly downloaded Mario levels in a row is not a good workaround either because it would be totally unfair to a lot of players even like myself.

There is nothing to gauge unless it has some sort of learning videos and progression system but that's not even what Mario Paint or Mario Maker is about. There is no progression. Ever. It's only limited by your imagination. That is the basis of design of this game, of Mario Paint, of the Mario Artist series.
Click to expand...


So whats the point of the time-based lock then?

If the argument is: Being overwhelmed, preventing "disastrous" levels, gradual learning, and/or Day 1 troll level (nothing you can do about that), then put the 9-day content behind 1 tutorial level that unlocks each "day" of content (at your pace) with a task that shows you a "preferred" or standard way to implement it. Even put a message at the end. "Now that you know how to use the content, lets us see your best levels. Remember your imagination is the limit!"

My argument begins and end with that its not needed. The time-based lock that is

qizah said:
Considering the amount of time most people will spend with that game, that's not a big deal whatsoever.
Click to expand...

And thats the kicker, why have it if its "no big deal" (I agree, its not, but not my argument)
 
Can't believe there are people defending this lame practice. Never change, GAF.

This is lame but I doubt Nintendo cares. People will buy it anyway.
 
commish said:
Can't believe there are people defending this lame practice. Never change, GAF.

This is lame but I doubt Nintendo cares. People will buy it anyway.
Click to expand...

Nintendo probably don't even understand why people might not like it.

Miyamoto: "Back in my day we only had basic blocks and Goombas to work with! It want until 9 days that Bowser and moving platforms were birthed unto us."
 
I like the idea of not giving you the entire package at once. But instead of using a 9-day countdown, there are more sensible unlock parameters: total playtime, levels created, levels played etc.

Oh well, Nintendo's gonna Nintendo. They always do things a bit differently, it's actually kinda charming.
 
Game will still be awesome, but this ranks up with one of the dumbest ideas for a video game ever. Right up there with make a Superman game, and the first level is flying through some rings.

I am pretty sure most people like optional tutorials. This is a mandatory series of tutorials. Made even worse by, instead of getting to play the game when you finish a tutorial, it says "Great job! Come back tomorrow and you can play another tutorial to unlock more content!"

I can see how this would be less of a problem for people who have tons of time to play video games. 9 days, that's just a week and a half, right? For the weekend warriors among us, though, where you try to get in a good play session once a week, you're talking 2 months until you can get to all of the content (or having to change your play habits to make video gaming a daily chore to make sure you're checking the box for the day). Why, Nintendo? Why?
 
zeopower6 said:
It's true though, isn't it? If any other game tried to do this, they would not be able to avoid criticism.
Click to expand...

Splatoon wasn't able to avoid criticism. Most reviews and a good chunk of people here were pretty dissatisfied with the limited offering that game had at the start, especially since almost all of it was on disc.

This game is being criticized right now and only a certain group of people are okay with it going down the path its taking. We will see if reviewers mention this.
Saying "because nintendo" when there has been, what 2 games now where they've even attempted to pull this? lol
 
Nesther said:
I like the idea of not giving you the entire package at once. But instead of using a 9-day countdown, there are more sensible unlock parameters: total playtime, levels created, levels played etc.

Oh well, Nintendo's gonna Nintendo. They always do things a bit differently, it's actually kinda charming.
Click to expand...

Those latter two options are pretty easy to game. And playing levels doesn't really improve your sense on creating levels. A better would probably be doing tutorial levels sort of like Art Academy's lessons but that would flood the game with these tutorial levels.
 
Does it make sense that there are people who want to come in from moment one and have the full suite of tools available, and not having that ability is annoying? Yeah, sure. But the level of impatience comes off as just a little bit weird, as though if you had everything at the start, 9 days would be all you need to make all the levels you'd ever make, anyway. Not to mention the game comes packed with some, what, 60+ levels to already play through, and even with day-1 tools I'm sure there will be some really interesting stuff done online with it. This isn't the sort of game that's going to be given up on after 9 days like other titles, where you can blow through a campaign in a few hours, try out some multiplayer, and call it a day.

It's not exactly new news that Nintendo is very careful about how they craft people's experience heading into a game of theirs, particularly in teaching mechanics for a game style that they've never really done before. It happened with Splatoon's slow-drip release because of the assumption that a lot of the game's player-base wouldn't necessarily be familiar with online shooters, and despite some internet grumbling, that seems to have gone well for them.

Would I personally prefer to have everything available at the start? Yeah probably, but I'm not heading to the hardware store for a pitchfork over nine days for a game that will likely be played for years. Getting a small package of new items each day encourages builders to test out levels with each of those new features rather than running for whatever their one personal favorite might be. Maybe they don't want to overwhelm people, or maybe they just want to make sure that even the most basic features are given proper time, attention, and utilization. Either way, the point will be moot within two weeks of launch.
 
It's single-player so it makes a lot less sense than Splatoon. You can't backup Wii U saves either so if you have to start again you have to wait another 9 days.
 
Doorman said:
Does it make sense that there are people who want to come in from moment one and have the full suite of tools available, and not having that ability is annoying? Yeah, sure. But the level of impatience comes off as just a little bit weird, as though if you had everything at the start, 9 days would be all you need to make all the levels you'd ever make, anyway. Not to mention the game comes packed with some, what, 60+ levels to already play through, and even with day-1 tools I'm sure there will be some really interesting stuff done online with it.

It's not exactly new news that Nintendo is very careful about how they craft people's experience heading into a game of theirs, particularly in teaching mechanics for a game style that they've never really done before. It happened with Splatoon's slow-drip release because of the assumption that a lot of the game's player-base wouldn't necessarily be familiar with online shooters, and despite some internet grumbling, that seems to have gone well for them.

Would I personally prefer to have everything available at the start? Yeah probably, but I'm not heading to the hardware store for a pitchfork over nine days for a game that will likely be played for years.
Click to expand...

As stated, the intent of this thread (and a majority of the posters that agree with me) is not about being outraged or getting pitchforks, I just find it annoying and arbitrary. Nothing more.

And this is not the same situation as Splatoon.
 
Justified said:
Not to mention no one is saying the Game itself will be bad
Click to expand...

OH the game will be excellent. It's 2D Mario but with unlimited levels. It's just that this one aspect of it is terrible and pointless and is another sign of Nintendo not fully getting it. While their intentions may be all good they don't seem to understand that not all of us are little kids.

HP_Wuvcraft said:
But it will teach people about design in general.
Click to expand...

I don't see this at all. Like, people will still make shit out of blocks and goombas, it'll just be less interesting shit. Plus they need to beat the level to publish it right? So even with bowsers and ghosts and fire flowers people will learn what works and what doesn't as they try and beat their own creations to share. Obviously, that might not matter with friends on the couch but I hardly think in that case they are going for master crafted, Miyamoto worthy levels.
 
Justified said:
So whats the point of the time-based lock then?

If the argument is: Being overwhelmed, preventing "disastrous" levels, gradual learning, and/or Day 1 troll level (nothing you can do about that), then put the 9-day content behind 1 tutorial level that unlocks each "day" of content (at your pace) with a task that shows you a "preferred" or standard way to implement it. Even put a message at the end. "Now that you know how to use the content, lets us see you best levels. Remember your imagination is the limit!"

My argument begins and end with that its not needed. The time-based lock that is



And thats the kicker, why have it if its "no big deal" (I agree, its not, but not my argument)
Click to expand...

I can agree with that. Maybe a tutorial would have been preferred. To be honest, I've also be thinking about ways that Nintendo or maybe someone out there could do is start some kind of learning videos for the game to give a better understanding on level design. There's a lot of potential there to teach with. I'd tune in every time myself if it happened.

Slightly off-topic to this too: I'd like to see them go further this series. I'd actually like Nintendo to make more games like this that put fans in control of game design, music, art (although we have art academy), maybe even 3D modeling. Their design philosophy for Mario Paint is to play with the software and by playing you're also learning. They're great teaching tools, and I know some who started in music and art because Mario Paint was their go to game as a kid to just relax and be creative. I'd love to see more of that.
 
Doorman said:
Does it make sense that there are people who want to come in from moment one and have the full suite of tools available, and not having that ability is annoying? Yeah, sure. But the level of impatience comes off as just a little bit weird, as though if you had everything at the start, 9 days would be all you need to make all the levels you'd ever make, anyway. Not to mention the game comes packed with some, what, 60+ levels to already play through, and even with day-1 tools I'm sure there will be some really interesting stuff done online with it. This isn't the sort of game that's going to be given up on after 9 days like other titles, where you can blow through a campaign in a few hours, try out some multiplayer, and call it a day.

It's not exactly new news that Nintendo is very careful about how they craft people's experience heading into a game of theirs, particularly in teaching mechanics for a game style that they've never really done before. It happened with Splatoon's slow-drip release because of the assumption that a lot of the game's player-base wouldn't necessarily be familiar with online shooters, and despite some internet grumbling, that seems to have gone well for them.

Would I personally prefer to have everything available at the start? Yeah probably, but I'm not heading to the hardware store for a pitchfork over nine days for a game that will likely be played for years. Getting a small package of new items each day encourages builders to test out levels with each of those new features rather than running for whatever their one personal favorite might be. Maybe they don't want to overwhelm people, or maybe they just want to make sure that even the most basic features are given proper time, attention, and utilization. Either way, the point will be moot within two weeks of launch.
Click to expand...

Its not a universal clock.

Your argument is legit, but again why do it faux time based if thats the case. Tutorial based covers every "slow-drip" reasoning you name, while also allowing individual gamers to have access to all the content at their pace.
 
Nanashrew said:
I can agree with that. Maybe a tutorial would have been preferred. To be honest, I've also be thinking about ways that Nintendo or maybe someone out there could do is start some kind of learning videos for the game to give a better understanding on level design. There's a lot of potential there to teach with. I'd tune in every time myself if it happened.

Slightly off-topic to this too: I'd like to see them go further this series. I'd actually like Nintendo to make more games like this that put fans in control of game design, music, art (although we have art academy), maybe even 3D modeling. Their design philosophy for Mario Paint is to play with the software and by playing you're also learning. They're great teaching tools, and I know some who started in music and art because Mario Paint was their go to game as a kid to just relax and be creative. I'd love to see more of that.
Click to expand...

I would too. Maybe something like a mix of This game, LBP, RPG/Fighter maker. Fun "teaching" games, but easily accessible
 
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