Super Mario Maker: Not all tools available from the start, unlock over 9 days

A Link to the Snitch said:
The lack of slopes is a real damn tragedy.
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Preach Bro!
I really hope there's a DLC for it...
Although I can get why they aren't there, because really what happens to your slope if you go for SMB1 style :/?
Zomba13 said:
But they are going for "the feel of incomplete". Other companies actually don't finish their games on time and release actual DLC for other features in a day one patch or not long after launch. Nintendo finishes their games, put all the stuff on disc and then lock that stuff away because everyone else is doing it but they don't understand people want the stuff from the start. People slammed Splatoon for lack of content at launch and it took weeks for it to have what it should have shipped with even though it did ship with that stuff, just Nintendo locked it away because everyone does it.
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I don't think they go for the "feel of incomplete" (which makes no damn sense btw), they go for a sense of progression.
people put up with it for Splatoon because it was really fun to play, the base game was rocksolid regardless of new IP.
 
Kouriozan said:
Spltoon had everything on disc already, just unlocking stuff little by little.
It is by no way "incomplete".
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Splatoon is Nintendo taking learning curves to the next level. It was designed like that to ease people in by limiting you to the most basic maps, modes and weapons. Having all this depth available from the start would be very overwhelming.
 
Nanashrew said:
:D

Yeah, even if I think it might be dumb on the wait time, and I do understand why like in Freethoughtbubble's post, I'm going in positive to try to learn with what is given and expand as it rolls out. It's a game and software you'll want to put hours into.
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But they are holding back staple Mario parts. Like, they are holding back 1Up mushrooms and fire flowers. Items that are available in the very first Mario game in the very first world. They are hamstringing people for no reason. You can say "well I want to start off slow" well you can do that with the full set, just don't use power ups or ? blocks or enemies or pits. Have some self control.

This just makes those of us that want to make cool fun levels or recreate classics with subtle twists have to wait 9 days. It's stupid and won't increase the longevity of the game. I know I will just idle for 5 mins a day the first 9 days before playing. I'll treat this like a Sept 20th release. And why does Nintendo care about the longevity of the game? It's not an online MMO or multiplayer shooter with monthly paid DLC map packs and skins. It's a thing where you supposedly make any Mario level you can think of (after 9 days of playing 5 minutes per day).

Ansatz said:
Splatoon is Nintendo taking learning curves to the next level. It was designed like that to ease people in by limiting you to the most basic maps, modes and weapons. Having all this depth available from the start would be very overwhelming.
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They already choose what levels show up so we have no control over the levels but the game has a level system. They could have put the harder to use weapons at higher levels instead of them just being available a week/2 weeks etc late. Like if I bought Splatoon right now, having never played it, I get thrown in to a game with "hard" weapons and levels from the get go? The Learning curve thing is bullshit if it's tied to time from release and not time played or player level etc.
 
freethoughtbubble said:
I've been reading this thread with abject fascination. I get why some are frustrated by the idea of being made to wait for content. Some feel patronized. Others simply don't want to wait. But what I can't understand is the people saying that this is arbitrary or serves no purpose.

Of course it serves a purpose: it encourages players to learn to make stages gradually, beginning with the basic building blocks (literally) and upping the complexity in a controlled manner. I consider myself to be an intelligent, independent, well-adjusted adult, and I have no real problem with this approach. I'm not a level-designer by trade, after all. I appreciate the structure. Not everyone has to, but to say this is arbitrary or lacks any sort of redeeming quality is a bit unfair.

The way I see it, this approach seeks to accomplish a couple of things, some of which have been mentioned already:

1. It encourages players to experiment with all of the tools rather than sticking to a relative few. Most of us have likely experienced this phenomenon before: give people a universe of options and many will simply stick to what's safe and familiar.

2. It encourages players to learn the basics of creating a level before descending into Kaizo inspired madness. This could lead to higher quality over all, although this remains to be seen of course.

3. Relatedly, it ensures that there will be a range of different level types and difficulties -- from simple to complex, and from easy to hard. This is a very good thing for new players. It ensures that these players will always have a healthy amount of levels that they can play through and enjoy as they become better at the game, while experienced players will still have all the diabolical levels they can stomach.

I think it's actually a pretty smart way to go about things. The alternatives seem either easily exploitable or contrived. A level requirement will encourage slapdash designs in the rush to unlock content. A system that measures "skill" sounds good on paper, but how do you quantify that exactly? Some have said that it should be based on hours actually played, but that has its own problems. Not everyone has the time to play a game for even an hour a day. For these people unlocking everything could take even longer than 9 days, depending on how the unlocks are structured. Tutorials are boring even in bombastic action games -- what makes people think that they would be more palatable or effective here? A complicated tutorial would be a turn-off for many gamers and reviewers, and a simple one would defeat the purpose entirely.
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How is this not exploitable?

People are already thinking about playing 5mins then advancing their clocks.

How can you be sure this encourages progress? A player can be idle all the time, yet trigger the unlock.

There is no absolute solution.

But this is not smart and it's annoying.

I don't want to be hand held, specially when it comes down to creativity.
 
Mcdohl said:
How is this not exploitable?

People are already thinking about playing 5mins then advancing their clocks.

How can you be sure this encourages progress? A player can be idle all the time, yet trigger the unlock.

There is no absolute solution.

But this is not smart and it's annoying.

I don't want to be hand held, specially when it comes down to creativity.
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Yup. There can definitely be something said for limiting tools for an artist and seeing them get truely creative. I kinda love the emblem editor in Battlefield and trying to recreate logos or images or characters I like using the limited tools. But in a game called Super Mario Maker, where the main sell is to make any sort of Mario level you can think of, it's bullshit to limit that creativity. Hell, you're already limited by having to make game levels using blocks and objects found in Mario games, why limit it further by cutting out iconic items like Fire Flowers or Bowser? At least for a few days.

If they wanted to "teach" people then have a stupid forced tutorial where you use each "basic" block to make a shit level then an "intermediate" level then an "advanced" one and then go "you're freeeeeeee!!". Or have a mode where you can only use a limited set of items, like a weekly challenge. Make a level with these block, upload it and people can vote on it in a weekly challenge level list thing and have the first challenge be simple stuff and next weeks a bit more etc while also letting everyone actually make and upload their levels to the "main" list.
 
Zomba13 said:
But they are holding back staple Mario parts. Like, they are holding back 1Up mushrooms and fire flowers. Items that are available in the very first Mario game in the very first world. They are hamstringing people for no reason. You can say "well I want to start off slow" well you can do that with the full set, just don't use power ups or ? blocks or enemies or pits. Have some self control.

This just makes those of us that want to make cool fun levels or recreate classics with subtle twists have to wait 9 days. It's stupid and won't increase the longevity of the game. I know I will just idle for 5 mins a day the first 9 days before playing. I'll treat this like a Sept 20th release. And why does Nintendo care about the longevity of the game? It's not an online MMO or multiplayer shooter with monthly paid DLC map packs and skins. It's a thing where you supposedly make any Mario level you can think of (after 9 days of playing 5 minutes per day).
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You'd be surprised at how many platformers don't even have power-ups or just a few. Kaizo Mario also doesn't even use them most of the time outside of mushrooms which might be more prevalent to abuse invincibility frames through certain sections. I think there's a lot of creativity to be found in just the basics.

I do agree though that at least the fire flower and 1-up should have been a part of the first set for better recreation of the first stage and giving some newcomers a bit more leeway on survivability. They're an extension of the basics.
 
Thinking out loud but I wonder if Nintendo will disable sharing levels until you unlock everything.

EDIT: in other words, no sharing until day 9 or whatever it is.
 
Zomba13 said:
Yup. There can definitely be something said for limiting tools for an artist and seeing them get truely creative. I kinda love the emblem editor in Battlefield and trying to recreate logos or images or characters I like using the limited tools. But in a game called Super Mario Maker, where the main sell is to make any sort of Mario level you can think of, it's bullshit to limit that creativity. Hell, you're already limited by having to make game levels using blocks and objects found in Mario games, why limit it further by cutting out iconic items like Fire Flowers or Bowser? At least for a few days.

If they wanted to "teach" people then have a stupid forced tutorial where you use each "basic" block to make a shit level then an "intermediate" level then an "advanced" one and then go "you're freeeeeeee!!". Or have a mode where you can only use a limited set of items, like a weekly challenge. Make a level with these block, upload it and people can vote on it in a weekly challenge level list thing and have the first challenge be simple stuff and next weeks a bit more etc while also letting everyone actually make and upload their levels to the "main" list.
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Fuck challenges tied to editors or stuffs like that, you're usually left with a bunch of shitty samey levels that sap the fun out of it quicker than you could spell Kotick's name.
Pretty much anything is better than forced tutorial unlocking stuffs.

davidbruy said:
Thinking out loud but I wonder if Nintendo will disable sharing levels until you unlock everything.

EDIT: in other words, no sharing until day 9 or whatever it is.
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There's no reason they would do this, I don't think you can expect that.
 
davidbruy said:
Thinking out loud but I wonder if Nintendo will disable sharing levels until you unlock everything.
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It's locked behind waiting an additional 9 days (5 mins play time each) after getting everything. They want to preserve longevity for the game and make sure people are master level artisans before they can upload online. They also want all the people who would just make penis levels to get bored and trade the game in.

Mael said:
Fuck challenges tied to editors or stuffs like that, you're usually left with a bunch of shitty samey levels that sap the fun out of it quicker than you could spell Kotick's name.
Pretty much anything is better than forced tutorial unlocking stuffs.
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Well with this system you're gonna get that anyway, just for everyone and not just for a small, optional section of the levels. This is essentially locking them behind tutorials. Though tutorial unlocks can be done in like, the first 10 minutes of getting a game (depending on how unskippable the instructions are) this you have to wait 9 days. over a week long tutorial unlock. :D
 
Mcdohl said:
How is this not exploitable?

People are already thinking about playing 5mins then advancing their clocks.

How can you be sure this encourages progress? A player can be idle all the time, yet trigger the unlock.

There is no absolute solution.

But this is not smart and it's annoying.

I don't want to be hand held, specially when it comes down to creativity.
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I mean, no one knows in advance whether this approach will lead to a positive or negative outcome. I honestly think that it will be the former, because I don't think the vast majority of players will "exploit" the system clock or whatever (which is not the sense of the word I meant. I was referring to a flood of crappy levels that would result from content being locked behind a "create X levels" requirement). I honestly think this is a smart solution. Not a perfect one, or an "absolute" one, but a smart one in its own right.

As for not wanting your hand to be held, I hear your concern. Like I said, this won't be for everyone. But as a game design novice, and as a person who wants to see quality over quantity, I can't say it bothers me too much. Just the opposite, actually.
 
9 days is absolutely nothing and I doubt it will have any real impact on creation.

Nintendo seems like they were just seeking a way to make this annoying.
 
Zomba13 said:
If they wanted to "teach" people then have a stupid forced tutorial where you use each "basic" block to make a shit level then an "intermediate" level then an "advanced" one and then go "you're freeeeeeee!!". Or have a mode where you can only use a limited set of items, like a weekly challenge. Make a level with these block, upload it and people can vote on it in a weekly challenge level list thing and have the first challenge be simple stuff and next weeks a bit more etc while also letting everyone actually make and upload their levels to the "main" list.
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Your suggestions seem valid, but I'm also not really seeing how the decision they actually did make is a problem. The absolute nightmare scenario here is that you buy the game and have friends over and, like, you're stuck with the default options. I would expect the more common reaction is not going to be "UGH It doesn't have <some item> fuck this *throws gamepad* video games suck let's knit". I expect it's going to be more like they don't even notice and just make and play levels based on what's available. If the default set is too limited then I guess people will get bored after a few hours. I'm not really sure how it's, like, on its face less legitimate to make a game designed to be played for a few hours at a time rather than for 20 hours in a row or whatever. This strikes me as a fundamentally minor decision that isn't going to have a major impact on your experience with the game unless you let it.

Doing something like idling for a week and a half before examining the content is just bizarrely spiteful. It's not like all the other people playing for those 9 days are going to be having a miserable time. Mostly they're going to be enjoying the game while you pout.
 
…I can't believe people are comparing this to F2P mechanics.

F2P is designed to convert impatience into money.

SMM is designed to try to help people get the most out of what they already bought.

They are not remotely comparable.
 
Zomba13 said:
Well with this system you're gonna get that anyway, just for everyone and not just for a small, optional section of the levels. This is essentially locking them behind tutorials. Though tutorial unlocks can be done in like, the first 10 minutes of getting a game (depending on how unskippable the instructions are) this you have to wait 9 days. over a week long tutorial unlock. :D
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If you think limiting tileset means all levels are going to be samey I'll gladly disagree.
Considering that there's quite a few theme already I don't expect all levels to be genius levels made by designer gods but I fully expect people to be able to be creative with this.
Miiverse should discriminate better than for Tipping Star considering that the base game is really that much better.
The game doesn't need a tutorial as it is, I expect all necessary intructions to be in the leaflet provided with the game.
 
I wonder if we'll see some levels in a similar vein to the trackmania ones where you just press forward (right here obv) and it's designed in a way to make it seem like you're doing some crazy moves but it's just expertly laid out that way. Not sure if you could really do this in a 2d Mario with needing jumps. Curious to see what people will come up with.
 
I doubt the timed release is tied to any online verification. So hopefully I'll be able to just play 5 minutes and advance my system clock a day 9 times.
 
Mael said:
If you think limiting tileset means all levels are going to be samey I'll gladly disagree.
Considering that there's quite a few theme already I don't expect all levels to be genius levels made by designer gods but I fully expect people to be able to be creative with this.
Miiverse should discriminate better than for Tipping Star considering that the base game is really that much better.
The game doesn't need a tutorial as it is, I expect all necessary intructions to be in the leaflet provided with the game.
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You said that "challenges" produce samey levels. Limited tools absolutely doesn't mean that. I first suggested, if they wanted to do this, to make it an optional thing in a "challenge" section where each week or however long Nintendo want to drag this out, they implement this plan. Where you are limited to the first lot of unlocks, then the first and second lot etc as a way to shove this "play with the duplo before you can play with the lego" mindset to the side.

You said that tutorial unlocks were the worst but this is essentially that. Though rather than a tutorial taking like 30 minutes or whatever, it takes a day to do tutorial 1, another day to do tutorial 2 etc. You are locked out of these "advanced" items like Fire Flowers and Bloopers until you learn to play nice with the basic blocks. Just because they aren't calling it a tutorial doesn't mean it isn't one.


It kinda feels like if an Art Academy game (never played one so I don't know) locked you out of tools like colours and paint in the free draw mode until you spent 5 minutes every day for a week doodling with a pencil. It's silly to limit people like this in a creative thing. If there are gameplay reasons like in Banjo Nuts and Bolts where you unlock new parts and upgrades as you progress in this game and use the new items to overcome new challenges then it's a bit different. But when it's locking away your tools in a "game" that is all about the making of whatever you can think of in the 2D mario universe then it's a massive disappointment having to wait over a week to be able to have access to the full toolset.
 
Need a big update like Splatoon adding World Map Maker, slopes, keys and key holes for secret exits, ON/OFF blocks and some missing ennemies (charging chuck).
But they might just keep those for Super Mario Maker NX.
 
wanderingprostheyltite said:
I wonder if we'll see some levels in a similar vein to the trackmania ones where you just press forward (right here obv) and it's designed in a way to make it seem like you're doing some crazy moves but it's just expertly laid out that way. Not sure if you could really do this in a 2d Mario with needing jumps. Curious to see what people will come up with.
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They've been around long before Nintendo was releasing tools for it

That's just the first result that came up when I searched, there are plenty out there.

edit: That's fully automatic and doesn't require or allow you to hold a direction. Not exactly the same, but similar concepts and tricks would be needed.
 
Zomba13 said:
You said that "challenges" produce samey levels. Limited tools absolutely doesn't mean that. I first suggested, if they wanted to do this, to make it an optional thing in a "challenge" section where each week or however long Nintendo want to drag this out, they implement this plan. Where you are limited to the first lot of unlocks, then the first and second lot etc as a way to shove this "play with the duplo before you can play with the lego" mindset to the side.

You said that tutorial unlocks were the worst but this is essentially that. Though rather than a tutorial taking like 30 minutes or whatever, it takes a day to do tutorial 1, another day to do tutorial 2 etc. You are locked out of these "advanced" items like Fire Flowers and Bloopers until you learn to play nice with the basic blocks. Just because they aren't calling it a tutorial doesn't mean it isn't one.


It kinda feels like if an Art Academy game (never played one so I don't know) locked you out of tools like colours and paint in the free draw mode until you spent 5 minutes every day for a week doodling with a pencil. It's silly to limit people like this in a creative thing. If there are gameplay reasons like in Banjo Nuts and Bolts where you unlock new parts and upgrades as you progress in this game and use the new items to overcome new challenges then it's a bit different. But when it's locking away your tools in a "game" that is all about the making of whatever you can think of in the 2D mario universe then it's a massive disappointment having to wait over a week to be able to have access to the full toolset.
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You know that if they did tutorial challenges they would give a base and the tools and go from there, it's kinda like a drawing session with a model.
Locking a tools behind a timegate is a way more elegant way of forcing players to use a limited toolset than just providing tutorials.
Heck Mario games usually goes for a more less is more approach anyway.
When they go with a more kitchen sink approach, the designs always suffer and we're left with an inferior experience.
To properly use a tool you need to get the limitations they have, this approach is really better than a wall o text or a video showing it.
The game is really about making levels AND playing them.
Usually you don't to play all the levels in any way you want like this game is looking to be.
Heck people are disappointed with the lack of world map that would basically gate content arbitrarily.
My point is sometimes less is more and I believe this is one of these case.
 
I'm really glad Nintendo treats me like a child, otherwise I might be overwhelmed with options for my level, this is why Nintendo are so popular among core gamers because they know what's best for us.
 
I don't think this's that big of an issue, but it's definitely extremely unnecessary. The game is all about making new levels with every tool at your disposal, I don't see how giving you the bare minimum and adding a bit every day is any help. If you really want me to learn before making advanced levels just give me a quick tutorial or something, don't make me wait 9 days.

davidbruy said:
Thinking out loud but I wonder if Nintendo will disable sharing levels until you unlock everything.

EDIT: in other words, no sharing until day 9 or whatever it is.
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THAT would be a big issue. I don't think they'll pull something that low, plus it wasn't mentioned in the overview video.
 
This encourages nothing but attempted abuse to cheat the unlock system. This will not help the supposed "stupid users" be anymore capable at building game content, if anything this is training to keep players coming back everyday and making stuff for distribution. It is frustrating for people who just want to dive in and make levels, and will cause most levels to lack these tools because a majority of players won't get through the unlock process before dropping the game.

Stuff like this just prevents your core/loud fans from getting super hyped about your game. A bad move from a company that has barely sold 10 million consoles this generation.
 
Maybe if Nintendo just published last christmas this game as shown at 2014 E3 with only one toolbar and just SMB / NSMBU styles and just the overground theme for... like $15-20 and making us pay $5 DLC packs every month until the content we have now, even if we ended paying more and waiting months for the same content, some people would consider that a better approach for the game than this 9-day deployment.

The human nature... :p
 
Timed so players can slowly get used to the tools? Unlock over 9 days? That's less than two weeks, I think...

0e3.png


Would I rather have everything unlocked from the beginning? Perhaps. Do I mind about the 9 days unlock? Nah...
 
I mean... if I can game it and just mess with the clock, I'm not angry, but I'd rather the unlocks be gotten some other way.

I don't have a huge problem with some items remaining unlockable, though I'd prefer it if they weren't. LBP has done it for years with small stuff. Things like fire flowers, fire bars, and thwomps not being in by default is ridiculous though.
 
I'm not really bothered, though I understand the frustration some people have. I'm firmly in the "great creativity can happen when presented with a box" so more than just easing people in, I am interested to see what some people do with the limitations given.
 
Satch said:
why are people defending this

like... none of the defenses make sense at all
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There's nothing to defend, same way there's nothing to hate.

"But Nintendo"... (because some assume that everyone that has no problem with this is a Nintendo fanboy)..

Nothing affects the overall game. That you will take some more time to make this "awesome" levels, then yeah. But is nothing to hate or that needs defending.
 
fernoca said:
There's nothing to defend, same way there's nothing to hate.

"But Nintendo"... (because some assume that everyone that has no problem with this is a Nintendo fanboy)..

Nothing affects the overall game. That you will take some more time to make this "awesome" levels, then yeah. But is nothing to hate or that needs defending.
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I don't hate it. I find it annoying and arbitrary. And that's perfectly reasonable.
 
If they really want to ease people into level creation, they should release a demo with a limited tool set. That way people can prepare to be "overwhelmed" by the features in the full version. It would be a lot easier to swallow than, "Pay $60 for a game, then slowly wait for advertised features to unlock."
 
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