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[JoeM86]

Instead of looking at the bad side of VI, I'm going to look at it as a way to adapt more and go for more aerial. Gotta adapt to this new meta, or get left behind

Spoiler

and continue to play Melee for another 13 years...

Exactly. With games which get new iterations that change things, I often see that people are less reluctant to embrace change and are trying to keep it back to what was their first version of the metagame.

Personally, I'm fine with the mechanics in this game. It's fast, it's beautiful, it's fun. I'm not one who'd play for glory too much anyway. I just don't find it fun.

Probably, like I said before in 6-8 months people will understand the game a lot better. Im not writting off smash 4 anytime soon.

Yep. The game has been out all of a week and people are writing it off just based on these observations. It's ridiculous.

 

[OricWindstar]

I'm not going to watch it

People that know all these mechanics seem to get upset about things all the time.

I've remained blissfully ignorant through Melee and Brawl and I'm going to keep it that way for Smash 4.

For Fun!!

If you're me, you can do both!

I find it interesting to see the deeper mechanics of stuff, even if I don't end up playing at that high a level. Though, I'd love to design a game at some point, so that may be why.

 

[Storm Kyleis]

Interesting.

...what's a vector?


Interesting.

...what's di?

Basically, VI gives you slightly more control over your knockback by holding the slide pad in a certain direction. You can reduce your knockback to avoid a KO or increase it to escape a combo.

The Directional Influence (gone in Smash 4) used to affect the angle of your knockback, now the Vector Influence affects the distance. It's not a huge difference, but you can survive at slightly higher damage.

I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing. It makes gimping (hitting opponents off-stage) more useful, because characters are less likely to reach the blast zone with a single hit.

 

[WarAdept]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

 

[johnbone]

Another night, another bunch of people letting emotions get the best of them and jumping to conclusions on newly discovered mechanics that we don't even understand well.

For f^cks sake people, pull yourselves together!

 

[OricWindstar]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

I think it's important for people who characterize competitive players as "no fun" people who just want to shit all over a new game to realize that this post is how most of them actually feel. Of course they want the new game to succeed; they seem overly worried because they want to love the game.

Just because some pro players are dick heads doesn't mean we should lump all of them into that grouping. There are just as many casual player dick heads too.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

I think your fears (about combo ability at least) should be put to rest once you get your hands on the demo

 

[botty]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

Precisely.

Aggressive gameplay is what makes Smash exciting, but if you have people just holding right all the time to automatically avoid combos, the glory is greatly diminished. I'm not a real man, so I don't use items or play for fun.

 

[Delio]

So if in say six months VI is very bad for everything what would happen? Competitive will just fall off for Smash 4 and we are left with Melee for another how many years. Would be quite interesting. While Im probably not going to do For Glory much anyways it's sad if advance matches never happen for Smash 4.

 

[WarAdept]

I think your fears (about combo ability at least) should be put to rest once you get your hands on the demo

I've got the demo. I don't have anyone to play with to successfully figure out whether or not it's significant. But combos can be done at low percent Smash 64 style with Mario and Pikachu (u-tilt/uair spam, etc) on Level 9 bots.

 

[johnbone]

So if in say six months VI is very bad for everything what would happen? Competitive will just fall off for Smash 4 and we are left with Melee for another how many years. Would be quite interesting. While Im probably not going to do For Glory much anyways it's sad if advance matches never happen for Smash 4.

Nah, there will be a large community of people playing smash 4 no matter what, just like there was with brawl! People always forget that until melee's resurgence the past year or so, the brawl scene was actually bigger!

 

[L00P]

I've been doing the so-called VI since Melee. You mean to say that I've been doing it wrong the whole time?!

 

[Delio]

Nah, there will be a large community of people playing smash 4 no matter what, just like there was with brawl! People always forget that until melee's resurgence the past year or so, the brawl scene was actually bigger!

So the main worry would be matches taking way to long to finish right? I noticed people complained in the Evo thread before about Melee matches taking to long lol boy they would complain about this even more.

 

[J@hranimo]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

Have you been able to play the demo? Smash 4 does indeed have combos and hitstun. The only thing that will take a while to get used to is the larger blast zones and your opponent coming back to the stage. Just expect 30-45% more damage on your opponent to smash them off the stage.

Overall, after playing the demo if more people are open to this game and see the potential in it then it will be a popular competitive Smash. I mean, I can understand being hesitant to the next game in a series being good

Spoiler

seriously, I'm a Sonic fan

after the previous was such a disappointment, but I believe everyone that likes Smash to some degree should at least try the game out.

 

[autobzooty]

VI's just another tool to master and dominate with

it's

fun

This.

I feel like brawl being kind of disappointing competitively has made people think that anything different from melee is bad. But I'm not a SUPER high level player so maybe there's something I'm missing.

 

[Roo]

More than the VI, I find the blastzones the biggest problem in this game.
I mean, they're huge compared to the stages and other games.
I've been avoiding to watch any Wii U footage so I don't know how it works there but I'm surprised how long it takes to KO someone in the 3DS version.

 

[ffdgh]

This.

I feel like brawl being kind of disappointing competitively has made people think that anything different from melee is bad. But I'm not a SUPER high level player so maybe there's something I'm missing.

It's more of people don't want a repeat of brawl.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Um, shouldn't the demo be up now for North America?

 

[Meffer]

I've been doing the so-called VI since Melee. You mean to say that I've been doing it wrong the whole time?!

Me too actually. Guess I'll be doing it right in 4 now.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I've been doing the so-called VI since Melee. You mean to say that I've been doing it wrong the whole time?!

VI is more intuitive, but the basic principle isn't that different from DI so even without knowing that it was angle and not distance you can do it effectively sometimes.

Oh yeah, anyone worried about taking too long to KO or "huge" blastzones,

Little Mac

 

[Alchemy]

People hate VI simply because the competitive community fears another Brawl. We wanted Brawl to be good. We wanted to move away from Melee. However the mechanics of basically no combos/hitstun stopped any sort of aggressive play and it ended up being a camping game to any character that wasn't either Metaknight or IC.

I'm still excited for Sm4sh. But VI has gotten me very cautious.

This is pretty much me. A little worried, but still buying the 3DS and Wii versions and buying too many Amiibos. Maybe if this game burns me as badly as Brawl I will learn my lesson.

 

[Benzychenz]

If aggressive play is fun then maybe competitive players should just ban defensive play.

Hand out yellow/red cards and stuff, y'know?


Also I keep reading VI as 6.

 

[johnbone]

So the main worry would be matches taking way to long to finish right? I noticed people complained in the Evo thread before about Melee matches taking to long lol boy they would complain about this even more.

Well melee matches are 4 stock (which is too many imo), and if smash 4 ends up being slow, they'd use 2 or 3 stocks instead.

 

[Jawmuncher]

If aggressive play is fun then maybe competitive players should just ban defensive play.

Hand out yellow/red cards and stuff, y'know?


Also I keep reading VI as 6.

Same here.
Confirmed for being a terrible name with terrible abbreviation.

 

[J@hranimo]

If aggressive play is fun then maybe competitive players should just ban defensive play.

Hand out yellow/red cards and stuff, y'know?


Also I keep reading VI as 6.

LOL, I was reading it as 6 at first too and then read the following posts.

 

[Durden77]

I day drinked today because of this game. My head feels terrible.

TWO MORE WEEKS!

 

[Delio]

Well melee matches are 4 stock (which is too many imo), and if smash 4 ends up being slow, they'd use 2 or 3 stocks instead.

Yeah I see people fighting for 2 stocks which would be nice for time.

 

[J@hranimo]

You know what, I just thought about:

VI with the larger blast zones kinda makes sense. If people want to hold the opposite direction at low-mid damage they won't fly as far, and then you can gimp/punish them more easily

Fuck....2 weeks and then we'll all be playing the game right now. Exciting to think about!

 

[ffdgh]

I day drinked today because of this game. My head feels terrible.

TWO MORE WEEKS!

Lol it's only going to get worse you know. Gives me time to become decent with megaman.

 

[Golnei]

Same here.
Confirmed for being a terrible name with terrible abbreviation.

Kind of appropriate, considering how the games themselves are titled.

 

[johnbone]

You know what, I just thought about:

VI with the larger blast zones kinda makes sense. If people want to hold the opposite direction at low-mid damage they won't fly as far, and then you can gimp/punish them more easily

Fuck....2 weeks and then we'll all be playing the game right now. Exciting to think about!

After watching ZeRo play some "high level" matches, I think it's fair to say that smash 4 will be all about gimping and YOLO edgeguards.

 

[Nanashrew]

Is VI that vectoring thing? If so I still think it should be called Hitstun Shuffle like in the tips section of Smash.

 

[WarAdept]

You know what, I just thought about:

VI with the larger blast zones kinda makes sense. If people want to hold the opposite direction at low-mid damage they won't fly as far, and then you can gimp/punish them more easily

Fuck....2 weeks and then we'll all be playing the game right now. Exciting to think about!

Which is basically the issue currently. You can both subtract and add to your knockback using VI. VI in the same direction as your knockback to escape combos at lower percents.

 

[solomon]

If aggressive play is fun then maybe competitive players should just ban defensive play.

Hand out yellow/red cards and stuff, y'know?


Also I keep reading VI as 6.

You cant force someone to play aggressive, some characters are naturally defensive so what happens to that player? Real talk lets just wait and see, if things look bad we can hope Lord Sakurai and the kingdom of Nintendo does something about it.

side note it sort of bothers me how distant sakurai is to the smash community compared to Ono and Harada. When sf and tekken games have a issue you can tweet them and they usually have a comment on it where as Nintendo you need to get through an army to get any answers

 

[Cody_D165]

Is VI that vectoring thing? If so I still think it should be called Hitstun Shuffle like in the tips section of Smash.

That refers to an entirely different phenomenon (Smash DI).

 

[Nanashrew]

That refers to an entirely different phenomenon (Smash DI).

Ah okay. VI still sounds weird though.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

side note it sort of bothers me how distant sakurai is to the smash community compared to Ono and Harada. When sf and tekken games have a issue you can tweet them and they usually have a comment on it where as Nintendo you need to get through an army to get any answers

Part of that is Smash not being considered a "pure" fighting game by its creator, unlike SF or Tekken, and part of that is Nintendo being ancient in mind and body.

I feel you tho

 

[ffdgh]

You know what, I just thought about:

VI with the larger blast zones kinda makes sense. If people want to hold the opposite direction at low-mid damage they won't fly as far, and then you can gimp/punish them more easily

Fuck....2 weeks and then we'll all be playing the game right now. Exciting to think about!

In theory yes but....multiple airdodges.

 

[Durden77]

Lol it's only going to get worse you know. Gives me time to become decent with megaman.

The demo is torture at this point. Beautiful sexy torture.

Link doesn't suck. WHAT THAT FUCK.

 

[chaosblade]

I still don't think VI is inherently bad as long as the implementation isn't too extreme. But yeah, combined with the massive blastzones it does seem like it could be troublesome.

I don't think it would be removed, but I also don't think a patch toning it down some would be out of the question either if Sakurai is going to pay any attention to feedback at all (but let's be real, he probably won't).

 

[Nanashrew]

Part of that is Smash not being considered a "pure" fighting game by its creator, unlike SF or Tekken, and part of that is Nintendo being ancient in mind and body.

I feel you tho

Sakurai's not part of Nintendo though. He's more independent. He even has a public Twitter account but he never speaks English.

 

[nephilimdj]

You cant force someone to play aggressive, some characters are naturally defensive so what happens to that player? Real talk lets just wait and see, if things look bad we can hope Lord Sakurai and the kingdom of Nintendo does something about it.

side note it sort of bothers me how distant sakurai is to the smash community compared to Ono and Harada. When sf and tekken games have a issue you can tweet them and they usually have a comment on it where as Nintendo you need to get through an army to get any answers

Actually isnt that a good thing? Smash doesn't need the fighting game community nonsense that balance updates can only come once a year because it will ruin tournaments ect.
Even killer instinct last year, devs claimed will balance weekly using the cloud, yet again scared off the community, person was op from launch to evo :/

Hope sakurai does what he feels is right, rather then being scared of backlash

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Is VI that vectoring thing? If so I still think it should be called Hitstun Shuffle like in the tips section of Smash.

That is a different technique which smash fans have a different name for...

Another tip I saw was being able to move your shield (move the stick slightly but not so much that you dodge or roll) to shield more effectively with a smaller one.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Sakurai's not part of Nintendo though. He's more independent. He even has a public Twitter account but he never speaks English.

He came up through Nintendo though, the mindset is the same. He's got Sora now, but Smash is still firmly a Nintendo product

 

[Delio]

Part of that is Smash not being considered a "pure" fighting game by its creator, unlike SF or Tekken, and part of that is Nintendo being ancient in mind and body.

I feel you tho

That is what I always figured it was like. Sakurai not considering it a pure fighting game thus not being like the other fighting game devs. I think the only way it would be considered that way is if Sakurai isnt involved anymore I guess.

 

[botty]

In theory yes but....multiple airdodges.

Also, the distance between a potential kill and a successful VI will likely still be too great to punish. DI requires more skill simply because it doesn't guarantee survival, and you have to really think about where you want to be influenced according to the stage and trajectory. This is an extremely dumbed down version...in my opinion.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Assume the stick figure is a smash character aend it gets sent flying in a path along the black line, ending where the black line ends if the analog stick is not pressed at all.

 

[solomon]

Sakurai's not part of Nintendo though. He's more independent. He even has a public Twitter account but he never speaks English.

The thing is smash 4 doesn't have major issues just some small things that should be on notice for sakurai.What kills me is he might already know about all this shit but only tweets about events, his cat and potd. I mean he doesn't even need to talk to people outside of the Japanese smash community but even that he never does. Sometimes it feels like Nintendo is in a mountain somewhere and the only way to contact them is through carrier birds and having to wait forever for a vague message.

holy shit this is becoming a Nintendo rant let me stop.

 

[Nanashrew]

The thing is smash 4 doesn't have major issues just some small things that should be on notice for sakurai.What kills me is he might already know about all this shit but only tweets about events, his cat and potd. I mean he doesn't even need to talk to people outside of the Japanese smash community but even that he never does. Sometimes it feels like Nintendo is in a mountain somewhere and the only way to contact them is through carrier birds and having to wait forever for a vague message.

holy shit this is becoming a Nintendo rant let me stop.

He stopped using Twitter a whole lot when people started joking about him so much.

 

[J@hranimo]

After watching ZeRo play some "high level" matches, I think it's fair to say that smash 4 will be all about gimping and YOLO edgeguards.

Yeah edgeguarding can be really intense with the new mechanics.

Super Edgeguard Bros.

Which is basically the issue currently. You can both subtract and add to your knockback using VI. VI in the same direction as your knockback to escape combos at lower percents.

In theory yes but....multiple airdodges.

Hmmm those are good points. Well, gotta work around it. Either kill harder on-stage or make really precise reads and meteor everyone lol.