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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Professor Beef said:
I would argue that Doc's killing power is in no way a good trade for anything regular Mario has.
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How do you mean? Doc's big flaws are the fact he's slightly slower both on the ground and in the air than Mario and his recovery is slightly weaker. Other than that I'd argue both Mario's have nearly the same potential. The two even have identical frame data for the moves they share.

The only thing I'd change about Doc right now is a buff to his overall movement speed, but I don't think any character has received a change like that so far.

Edit: Another fun fact is that regarding the moves they share Doc deals very slightly more damage on every one except usmash (the angles they launch people at are different, but Doc has an extra frame where the hitbox is in front of him.)
 
B

Boney

Banned
Professor Beef said:
"Slightly weaker" is being very generous regarding that recovery lol
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Same thing that I thought of lol. It's a Ganon tier recovery and that's pretty bad. It's not gonna be an issue in mid level play but on high level it makes him super unviable. Especially when you have a much stronger similar option. He needs a little extra oomph on his attacks to make him a surprise wildcard but still.
 
J

jnWake

Member
Wyg0ylt.png
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Smash dollars. The details are hilarious.
 
N

Nabster92

Member
The first two games of our set were super dumb. Both sd'd game 1 then I got a stage spike game two and up b'd the wrong way to come back. Then had a crazy ending in game three that I ended up saving him with a spike that I didn't realize he wouldn't make it back without it. Then he was able to wall cling right before the blast zone and come back and up smash me to win. So I lost round two winners but I've been coming back through losers and beat gimr, Jdawg, and logic so I think I'm top 5 now and play feel tension next.
 
E

EvilMario

Will QA for food.
Nabster92 said:
The first two games of our set were super dumb. Both sd'd game 1 then I got a stage spike game two and up b'd the wrong way to come back. Then had a crazy ending in game three that I ended up saving him with a spike that I didn't realize he wouldn't make it back without it. Then he was able to wall cling right before the blast zone and come back and up smash me to win. So I lost round two winners but I've been coming back through losers and beat gimr, Jdawg, and logic so I think I'm top 5 now and play feel tension next.
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Tuned in just in time. Commentators are giving you lots of compliments.
 
W

Wyndstryker

Member
Someone throwing every insult before the match even starts.

I kill them with barely any damage and both via elevator kills.

And the player was a flowchart Ness....

Got to love fg sometimes
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Wyndstryker said:
Someone throwing every insult before the match even starts.

I kill them with barely any damage and both via elevator kills.

And the player was a flowchart Ness....

Got to love fg sometimes
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Sounds like the guy I fought. Their name was some insult at the beginning, and before the match started they changed it to "FGSucks" or something like that. I destroyed them, and then they changed their name to "UR BAD". I destroyed them a second time and they weren't even there after the results screen. They were also a Ness player that spammed PK Fire.
 
B

Boney

Banned
God damn that fox running circles on rob.

Also, Boss down throw combos are way too scary, he got like 10 to 70% of one throw?
 
W

Wyndstryker

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
Sounds like the guy I fought. Their name was some insult at the beginning, and before the match started they changed it to "FGSucks" or something like that. I destroyed them, and then they changed their name to "UR BAD". I destroyed them a second time and they weren't even there after the results screen. They were also a Ness player that spammed PK Fire.
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He starts with "YOU SUCK" then switches to "HAHAHA" then "UR DED" then "GET REKT" all before he picks his char.

For me it's kill them with as much style and disrespect as possible. Best thing about the second elevator was that he was charging a down smash and I just waited at point blank, shielded it, then elevator'd him.
 
P

Poltergust

Member
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
He fell onto an up smash, was the moment I think he lost. People gave ZeRo so many free KO's trying to challenge Sheik on landing, like they forget she even has an up smash.

Luigi getting that much mileage out of grabs was just really stupid. A character shouldn't be that centralized. If it really makes a big difference other than him getting piss-easy KO's, we'll see and maybe he'll get buffed somehow. But the reasons he was potentially top 5, unpunishable fireball and combo off of grab at any percent, were both way too cheesy. It made him too polarizing of a character, losing badly to some projectile characters but utterly invaliding characters like Falco. He needs to be good in a way that isn't B B B B B B grab down b dead.
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Luigi was barely a top 10 character before the nerf. He simply had that burst factor that some of the other top tiers (ZSS, Rosalina) have, but his mobility is absolute garbage and that made him lose against a bunch of characters. That d-throw was pretty much the only thing keeping him viable.

Now Luigi is nerfed, and he now has an even worse match-up spread. Some previous advantages are now disadvantages, and some previous disadvantages are borderline unwinnable.

Unless Sakurai gives Luigi Mario's mobility, I don't see him working as a competitive character anymore.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Poltergust said:
Luigi was barely a top 10 character before the nerf. He simply had that burst factor that some of the other top tiers (ZSS, Rosalina) have, but his mobility is absolute garbage and that made him lose against a bunch of characters. That d-throw was pretty much the only thing keeping him viable.

Now Luigi is nerfed, and he now has an even worse match-up spread. Some previous advantages are now disadvantages, and some previous disadvantages are borderline unwinnable.

Unless Sakurai gives Luigi Mario's mobility, I don't see him working as a competitive character anymore.
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Boss just decimated Xanadu yesterday with his Luigi for what is worth. His down throw combos were super on point, and his new dair helped extend combos inmensly. Having one of, if not, the best up smash in the game kinda helps in sealing the deal.

He might not be top tier, or maybe not even top 10, but he's still viable.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Boss doesn't really play much out of state, though. There aren't any world-class Luigis performing right now. He was kind of a niche character, but only because his strengths were in his disgusting damage and easy KO's and not because of any inherent complexity like Peach or whatever. Most top players seem to prefer fast characters, big surprise.

He still has a down throw. It still combos better than every single down throw that isn't Sheik's (maybe Mii Brawer who knows). Is the first response to a character getting nerfed always going to be that they're useless? What made Luigi barely top 10? Matchups? Ness gets utterly bodied by Rosalina, struggles slightly more than most high tier characters against Sheik, and doesn't really have matchups he dominates like Luigi did, that doesn't stop people from trying to put him in top 5. Pikachu can't KO worth a damn and people still put him top 3. Luigi still has his smashes, throw combos, regrabs, his up B was buffed a while back, now his down air is buffed. I don't get the idea that he's suddenly not viable. His movement sucks but he's still pretty damn safe and strong. What he has is still more than you can say for the devastation they gave Greninja and Diddy Kong (even if Diddy Kong is probably still top 10 for a number of reasons). That Sheik didn't get nerfed at all is what I see as the main problem. Yet again.
 
P

Poltergust

Member
Boney said:
Boss just decimated Xanadu yesterday with his Luigi for what is worth. His down throw combos were super on point, and his new dair helped extend combos inmensly. Having one of, if not, the best up smash in the game kinda helps in sealing the deal.

He might not be top tier, or maybe not even top 10, but he's still viable.
Click to expand...

I made that post after winning grand finals in a weekly as Luigi lol.

Luigi already had problematic match-ups with most of the top-tier, and it's only gonna be exacerbated with this new patch. I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't even consider him to be in the top half of the cast anymore.

Snacks the sober sea lion said:
Boss doesn't really play much out of state, though. There aren't any world-class Luigis performing right now. He was kind of a niche character, but only because his strengths were in his disgusting damage and easy KO's and not because of any inherent complexity like Peach or whatever. Most top players seem to prefer fast characters, big surprise.

He still has a down throw. It still combos better than every single down throw that isn't Sheik's (maybe Mii Brawer who knows). Is the first response to a character getting nerfed always going to be that they're useless? What made Luigi barely top 10? Matchups? Ness gets utterly bodied by Rosalina, struggles slightly more than most high tier characters against Sheik, and doesn't really have matchups he dominates like Luigi did, that doesn't stop people from trying to put him in top 5. Pikachu can't KO worth a damn and people still put him top 3. Luigi still has his smashes, throw combos, regrabs, his up B was buffed a while back, now his down air is buffed. I don't get the idea that he's suddenly not viable. His movement sucks but he's still pretty damn safe and strong. What he has is still more than you can say for the devastation they gave Greninja and Diddy Kong (even if Diddy Kong is probably still top 10 for a number of reasons). That Sheik didn't get nerfed at all is what I see as the main problem. Yet again.
Click to expand...

Diddy and Greninja still kept their core gameplay intact, however. The way that players have to approach Luigi now is going to be completely different. He no longer has the presence of being a dangerous character, which means people don't need to respect him as much anymore.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that ability to KO has no bearing on who is good or not. Sheik is the best character in the game, after all. Match-ups are what's important here, and if Luigi now loses to all the top-tiers (and several high-tiers), he's not viable as a solo character. It's as simple as that.

At least Ness' match-up spread is a lot more favorable than Luigi's is now (Luigi also got destroyed by Rosalina anyways). That said, Ness is top 10, not top 5.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Greninja was nearly ruined by the initial patch. He lost most of his KO power and his neutral was severely hurt by the Water Shuriken nerf. But now he has a better forward tilt than ever, shuriken starts up faster, and he gets better mixups off of down throw, so it's starting to even out.

If KO power has no bearing, then why does this hurt Luigi? This nerf primarily hurts his KO power, he still has down throw combos up to 100%. How does this make his matchups losing now?
 
L

Laughlin

Member
It's good to see some tournament talk in here. Sometimes when majors are going on I expect this thread to be moving but hardly anyone is posting! Always surprises me.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Laughlin said:
It's good to see some tournament talk in here. Sometimes when majors are going on I expect this thread to be moving but hardly anyone is posting! Always surprises me.
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This thread hasn't been active lately but that's more because we haven't really gotten anything substantially new lately. The new patch is great and all, but we need characters and actually legal stages :O

I blame school and Diddy nerfs.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Poltergust said:
Also, I think it's pretty clear that ability to KO has no bearing on who is good or not. Sheik is the best character in the game, after all. Match-ups are what's important here, and if Luigi now loses to all the top-tiers (and several high-tiers), he's not viable as a solo character. It's as simple as that.
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? It definitely does matter a bit, Sheik has kill setups that are super low-risk/low-commitment. If she really couldn't kill outside of edgeguarding, I do think she'd drop quite a bit, but her superior neutral over the cast makes it so she can just whittle away at people until she can get you into a really safe 50/50 situation. If she misses, oh well, she can just attempt to do it again.

The shield patch + the nerf to Luigi's kill setups both hurt him, making his kill moves closer to Mario's moveset. Looks like Sakurai's team tried to give Luigi some better tools like a buffed dair to try to give him some better kill setups, but I don't think it'd be enough to compensate for how hard it can be to get in in certain matchups.

Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
This thread hasn't been active lately but that's more because we haven't really gotten anything substantially new lately. The new patch is great and all, but we need characters and actually legal stages :O

I blame school and Diddy nerfs.
Click to expand...

I've also been doing more playing than GAFing too. ;P



I missed the Dr. Mario talk from earlier, but yes he's tons weaker than Mario thanks to his shit recovery. It's "good", but can be easily edgeguarded. This is pre-patch though, I do feel he's a bit better post patch just due to the shield changes. Mario may lack great kill setups, but he usmash is so low commitment/low risk that you can really throw it out there. It only starts to hurt in matchups where he has the weaker neutral like Rosalina, which can make it tough to come back if he's not in the lead.


Also I do think Pikachu's been buffed quite a bit thanks to the patch. :eek:
 
P

Poltergust

Member
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
If KO power has no bearing, then why does this hurt Luigi? This nerf primarily hurts his KO power, he still has down throw combos up to 100%. How does this make his matchups losing now?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I mixed up some wording there. KO power is not all that relevant, but being able to reliably kill is what's important here. If he loses what is pretty much his only reliable kill set-up, then it's going to affect him quite a bit. He's going to need to rack up quite a bit more percent per stock on average now since he no longer has that burst factor, which makes his match-ups across the board generally worse.

I really can't stress enough how bad losing the ability to reliably KO early is. It not only affects how Luigi should be played, but it affects the opponent's mentality for the match-up. Luigi used to be scary to fight, and this would affect how other players would approach fighting him.

Do you think that people would fear ZSS nearly as much if she lost her up-B's kill power? I certainly wouldn't, especially since her grab is awful.

FSLink said:
? It definitely does matter a bit, Sheik has kill setups that are super low-risk/low-commitment. If she really couldn't kill outside of edgeguarding, I do think she'd drop quite a bit, but her superior neutral over the cast makes it so she can just whittle away at people until she can get you into a really safe 50/50 situation. If she misses, oh well, she can just attempt to do it again.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to say KO power. Sheik is probably overall the weakest of the cast when it comes to kill moves, but her actual ability to KO someone is kind of overwhelming.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Have we discussed this little thing yet?

Personally, I don't care much about rumors in the vein of "something is going to happen soon and it's going to be a thing get hype," but if it turns out to be real and a major thing then my interest is piqued.

It also explains why Warchamp was making goofy inkling tweets on my feed recently. >.>;;;
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Oh yeah, Diddy patch is probably incoming:

Nintendo said:
From Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:50 AM
- Thursday, October 8, 2015 2:00 AM Pacific Time

During the maintenance window, the following services will be unavailable.

Wii U

- Online Play, Rankings, etc. for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Nintendo 3DS

- Online Play, Rankings, etc. for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS
Click to expand...

Source.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
Have we discussed this little thing yet?

Personally, I don't care much about rumors in the vein of "something is going to happen soon and it's going to be a thing get hype," but if it turns out to be real and a major thing then my interest is piqued.

It also explains why Warchamp was making goofy inkling tweets on my feed recently. >.>;;;
Click to expand...
They're not gonna make 2 major updates in 2 weeks. Although one could argue this one wasn't major.

But whatever seems bs to me.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
I'm thinking it's either Inklings or Dixie Kong coming next.

Also apparently last week I hit my 10 year mark for being a member here on NeoGAF. :eek:
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
Surviving 10 whole years of NeoGAF sounds scary. And what happens to the K Rool fans if Dixie Kong gets added?
Click to expand...

They'll overreact like usual. Would match up with "Smash is about to make social media go insane"
I still think K Rool could get added due to the ballot. But if they're really hinting that it's a newcomer that didn't win the ballot, but "makes sense", Dixie or Inklings seem to fit the bill.

Someone on reddit seems to think the same:
"Could it possibly be Dixie Kong? She probably didn't win the ballot considering she's not largely requested, the need to clarify she's not a clone would make sense considering if she does happen to be leaked before the announcement everyone will assume she's a Diddy Kong clone, and being "the character who makes a whole lot of sense for a whole lot of reasons" seems justifiable here since there are very little DK reps and everyone is asking for one."
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
FSLink said:
I'm thinking it's either Inklings or Dixie Kong coming next.

Also apparently last week I hit my 10 year mark for being a member here on NeoGAF. :eek:
Click to expand...

How did you survive the endless arguments about dumb shit? D:

Also if we're getting another newcomer, I want it to be another retro character a la ROB and G&W. Maybe Mach Rider or an Excitebiker, someone who's basically Wario's Bike: The Character. :3
 
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