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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

D

Dimitri LH

Member
Ive missed using Zelda since she was my second main in Brawl so I started to pick her up again, it took a damn while to adjust my playstyle with her in Smash 4 and learn the new tactics (Same thing that happened with my Brawl main, Peach). Ironically, I feel safer edge guarding and going for off stage kills with her then any of my other mains. Feels good actually using the phantom effectively.

I feel that Dins fire is nerfed when compared to brawls.....or harder to use at least.

any tips for her?
 
O

Oidisco

Member
Wyndstryker said:
ff-nair is one of those things I'm still working on. Just haven't found a way to adapt it into my playstyle yet. I've pulled it off a few times but it's not habit yet. Right now I've been focusing more on how to really utilize phantom/dins fire as well as trying to figure out how to keep people offstage.

For the most part right now. FG is a joke with how I play my zelda. Ita great for me to figure out playstyles changes but I need more exposure to non fg stages to see how my adaptations work in a more tourney setting. Still a long way before I can say I'm satisfied but I still see many areas for my zelda to improve on.

Also. In our matchups the zss is the only one I don't have a "lingering fear".

Samus has the charge shot and the fe guys have counter. Zss I know I can really pull my aggressive zelda off better.
Click to expand...

It's funny you say that because Zss is easily the one you should be fearing the most out those characters, especially if you play aggressively. That's where ZSS shines, and considering how laggy a lot of Zelda's moves are you have to be extremely careful with what you do.

As for FF-Nair, I usually use to punish a short-hop airdodge or the end of a laggy aerial move. I also sometimes use it out of a short-hop if I think my opponent won't shield it, works great against tall characters.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
So I was pretty bummed about losing, and when I ask ZeRo for advice he told me to not only double-down on a high-tier, but pick up ZSS.

Obviously that wasn't the only thing he told me, but it's nice to know he supports the "pick a top tier" line of thinking lol.
 
O

Oidisco

Member
Dimitri LH said:
Ive missed using Zelda since she was my second main in Brawl so I started to pick her up again, it took a damn while to adjust my playstyle with her in Smash 4 and learn the new tactics (Same thing that happened with my Brawl main, Peach). Ironically, I feel safer edge guarding and going for off stage kills with her then any of my other mains. Feels good actually using the phantom effectively.

I feel that Dins fire is nerfed when compared to brawls.....or harder to use at least.

any tips for her?
Click to expand...

Best thing I can suggest with Zelda is to play very slow and careful with her. She has terrible approach and pressuring tools, so try to let your opponent approach you if you can.

Try to learn her best kill setups, she doesn't have many but the few she has are pretty powerful. Fast-fall nair to Elevator is her best kill setup by far and is something a lot of Zelda players should learn. It's kinda awkward, but it's really useful. D-throw to up-air is another decent one, if their DI is poor it's guaranteed on alot of characters at kill percents.

Also, Din's Fire is trash.
 
W

Wyndstryker

Member
Oidisco said:
It's funny you say that because Zss is easily the one you should be fearing the most out those characters, especially if you play aggressively. That's where ZSS shines, and considering how laggy a lot of Zelda's moves are you have to be extremely careful with what you do.
Click to expand...

It's weird also because ZSS has a great aerial game, but thats where I punish ZSS the most. Quick air phantom does quite well covering many of ZSS's aerial options and Zelda seems to have higher priority in her aerials than ZSS does.

I guess it's more on matchup knowledge in this case. I feel REALLY comfortable against a ZSS and a shiek compared to other chars.

And yes, Din's Fire is only really good at bombing edges or airdodge baiting to push the enemy lower for a dair spike. Aside from that it's hard to find a real use for it.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
So I was pretty bummed about losing, and when I ask ZeRo for advice he told me to not only double-down on a high-tier, but pick up ZSS.

Obviously that wasn't the only thing he told me, but it's nice to know he supports the "pick a top tier" line of thinking lol.
Click to expand...
But you don't really use ZSS? At least he didn't say pick Shiek.

Who did you lose to?
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Boney said:
But you don't really use ZSS? At least he didn't say pick Shiek.

Who did you lose to?
Click to expand...
He explained that the shieldstun changes really benefited her and that mastering a character like her could help me break the ceiling. When I siggested Diddy, he said "he needs a secondary." So I guess that's indirectly saying to pick Sheik? lol

I lost to the Ness, I went Doc only to find out after the match that Fox would've been a better choice which really hammered home this message about needing a high-tier to really go far in this game.


Edit: it feels like he's telling me to become a tier whore, but honestly it's not enough for me to do "okay" with x mid-tier character anymore. I want to do better and actually get results and wins, and if using a high-tier is what's going to get me those results then I'll have to at least consider it.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
He explained that the shieldstun changes really benefited her and that mastering a character like her could help me break the ceiling. When I siggested Diddy, he said "he needs a secondary." So I guess that's indirectly saying to pick Sheik? lol

I lost to the Ness, I went Doc only to find out after the match that Fox would've been a better choice which really hammered home this message about needing a high-tier to really go far in this game.


Edit: it feels like he's telling me to become a tier whore, but honestly it's not enough for me to do "okay" with x mid-tier character anymore. I want to do better and actually get results and wins, and if using a high-tier is what's going to get me those results then I'll have to at least consider it.
Click to expand...
I guess it's an obvious decision if you're actively attending tourneys. You want to win a a you're gonna use anything you can for it. It's not a bad thing per se, the only problem is the balance of the game and that lies on the developer side.

And we've mentioned ZSS. All her aerials benefit hugely on the shield changes, nair being elector, back air having ridiculous knockback damage and end lag, and up air being safer as well. That in turn makes easier to landing grabs because opponents need to react with dodging propositions which can be punished with grabs. Thing is with ZSS, you really need to be on point to make the most herb her.

Still, not sure why you wouldn't go fox, as you have experience with him and he's a top tier as well, and most importantly, you like him.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
He explained that the shieldstun changes really benefited her and that mastering a character like her could help me break the ceiling. When I siggested Diddy, he said "he needs a secondary." So I guess that's indirectly saying to pick Sheik? lol

I lost to the Ness, I went Doc only to find out after the match that Fox would've been a better choice which really hammered home this message about needing a high-tier to really go far in this game.


Edit: it feels like he's telling me to become a tier whore, but honestly it's not enough for me to do "okay" with x mid-tier character anymore. I want to do better and actually get results and wins, and if using a high-tier is what's going to get me those results then I'll have to at least consider it.
Click to expand...

Why not go Mario instead of Doc. Plenty high enough (plus your fox), it should still be a character you personally enjoy because he is essentially Doc, and you don't have to listen to stupid advice like "lol go high tier". I know I get yelled at on here sometimes because apparently it's a terrible to say, but I bet there are a lot of mental hiccups you can fix that are independent of the characters you have currently been using .
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Boney said:
I guess it's an obvious decision if you're actively attending tourneys. You want to win a a you're gonna use anything you can for it. It's not a bad thing per se, the only problem is the balance of the game and that lies on the developer side.

And we've mentioned ZSS. All her aerials benefit hugely on the shield changes, nair being elector, back air having ridiculous knockback damage and end lag, and up air being safer as well. That in turn makes easier to landing grabs because opponents need to react with dodging propositions which can be punished with grabs. Thing is with ZSS, you really need to be on point to make the most herb her.

Still, not sure why you wouldn't go fox, as you have experience with him and he's a top tier as well, and most importantly, you like him.
Click to expand...
I'll probably experiment with ZSS at least, especially since we don't have an amazing ZSS player here. ;) But yeah, I'm definitely going to stick with Fox, I have too much fun with him to stop playing him.
Shamrock7r said:
Why not go Mario instead of Doc. Plenty high enough (plus your fox), it should still be a character you personally enjoy because he is essentially Doc, and you don't have to listen to stupid advice like "lol go high tier". I know I get yelled at on here sometimes because apparently it's a terrible to say, but I bet there are a lot of mental hiccups you can fix that are independent of the characters you have currently been using .
Click to expand...

Believe me, I know it's not just my character holding me back lol. No need to sugarcoat it with me, I know when I suck. I'm sure there are other people who can make mid-tier characters work like Ryuga with Ike, but I don't think I'm one of them.

Or rather, I think they make them work because they have more developed fundamentals than I do. If I want to work on my core skillset, it's better to do so with a character I actually have a good chance of winning with.

Regarding Mario, he just doesn't feel very fun to me compared to Doc. Everything about him lacks weight IMO, but I might use him some. For now though, I'm gonna focus on playing and winning tourney sets with Fox. I'll lose a shit-ton, but if it means getting better I'll gladly take it.

Edit: I also took a selfie with ZeRo yay c:
 
W

Wyndstryker

Member
Sometimes it's not just fundamentals, but just the playstyle / mindset that goes with the char. Some people can just use some characters better. I fully believe my fundamentals are absolute garbage cause the only char I can play with any decency with is Zelda lol.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Just got back from the tournament. I ended up getting 2nd place. I destroyed the Sheik in loser's finals. I had to face the Ganondorf again in grand final's, and he beat me 3-0. I went DK the second match but then SDed at 40% because my jump disappeared. I almost won the first match with Yoshi, but I used uair below the stage really low, and he was at 140%, but he didn't die with his weight, and I fell to my death. 3rd match wasn't that close. Ganondorf hits so hard, and side-B is really hard to tech even offline. It didn't help that the guy has a lot of Yoshi experience and has amazing reads. Oh well, 2nd place is still decent for my 2nd tournament.

I ended up getting $36 ($26 profit) and 2 hours of gaming time at the place. The owner is really nice and bought pizza for everyone, and allowed refunds for the people that didn't want to stay for the long waits. The owner didn't know much about the game beforehand, but now he plans to get all the characters, including DLC, and stages unlocked for the next tournament. He wants 6 or so set-ups at the next tournament, which would've made the tournament about 3 hours or so. He also wants to provide food and stuff for everyone, which I think is a nice thing. He plans to get in contact with people like me and the other knowledgeable people (such as the ones that run the Smash Wii U community in my city), in order to be able to run these about once a month. After the tournament got going, it was fine, just really slow. I definitely think it would be a great monthly once they figure out everything. I mean, they have DXRacers!
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Wyndstryker said:
Sometimes it's not just fundamentals, but just the playstyle / mindset that goes with the char. Some people can just use some characters better. I fully believe my fundamentals are absolute garbage cause the only char I can play with any decency with is Zelda lol.
Click to expand...
That too, of course. I certainly can't play Yoshi without wanting to vomit from playing as a stupid looking dinosaur, and I'm sure Namikaze doesn't want to deal with the masochism with a stethoscope that is Dr. Mario. :^)
NamikazeBurst said:
Just got back from the tournament. I ended up getting 2nd place. I destroyed the Sheik in loser's finals. I had to face the Ganondorf again in grand final's, and he beat me 3-0. I went DK the second match but then SDed at 40% because my jump disappeared. I almost won the first match with Yoshi, but I used uair below the stage really low, and he was at 140%, but he didn't die with his weight, and I fell to my death. 3rd match wasn't that close. Ganondorf hits so hard, and side-B is really hard to tech even offline. It didn't help that the guy has a lot of Yoshi experience and has amazing reads. Oh well, 2nd place is still decent for my 2nd tournament.

I ended up getting $36 ($26 profit) and 2 hours of gaming time at the place. The owner is really nice and bought pizza for everyone, and allowed refunds for the people that didn't want to stay for the long waits. The owner didn't know much about the game beforehand, but now he plans to get all the characters, including DLC, and stages unlocked for the next tournament. He wants 6 or so set-ups at the next tournament, which would've made the tournament about 3 hours or so. He also wants to provide food and stuff for everyone, which I think is a nice thing. He plans to get in contact with people like me and the other knowledgeable people (such as the ones that run the Smash Wii U community in my city), in order to be able to run these about once a month. After the tournament got going, it was fine, just really slow. I definitely think it would be a great monthly once they figure out everything. I mean, they have DXRacers!
Click to expand...

That actually sounds great, the way you were describing it earlier made it sound like he was one of those T.O.'s that don't care at all for the game. The fact he wants to improve shows promise in itself. :) Also congrats on 2nd, sure it's not first but think of all the people you beat and the pizza you ate. =3
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
Wyndstryker said:
Sometimes it's not just fundamentals, but just the playstyle / mindset that goes with the char. Some people can just use some characters better. I fully believe my fundamentals are absolute garbage cause the only char I can play with any decency with is Zelda lol.
Click to expand...

This is very true, from my experience. Obviously there are some players that can pick up anyone. I'm not one of them lol. I've been using ness since smash 64
 
K

Karsticles

Member
I can't use rushdown characters. My mindset is always about controlling space. I usually do best with wonky characters that others find unintuitive, but I find commonly used characters to be unintuitive. For example, I can't use Yun in SF, and I can't use Wolverine or Weaker in Marvel.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
That too, of course. I certainly can't play Yoshi without wanting to vomit from playing as a stupid looking dinosaur, and I'm sure Namikaze doesn't want to deal with the masochism with a stethoscope that is Dr. Mario. :^)


That actually sounds great, the way you were describing it earlier made it sound like he was one of those T.O.'s that don't care at all for the game. The fact he wants to improve shows promise in itself. :) Also congrats on 2nd, sure it's not first but think of all the people you beat and the pizza you ate. =3
Click to expand...

Definitely not. He genuinely seems to value how much his customers are enjoying themselves. He spent $60 just to get the pizza for everyone.

Thanks. The people I beat weren't very good until the last few rounds, but it was still enjoyable. The pizza was also decent :).

Boney said:
Top tier Ganon huh? Sounds amazing
Click to expand...

It really says something about me destroying a decent Sheik and then losing 3-0 to a Ganondorf. This is not including the 2-0 in Winner's bracket when the Ganondorf beat me. I really should've spot-dodged. He got me with side-B a lot, and the few times I was able to tech he read the roll.


On the topic of character picks: No one has felt anywhere near as natural as Yoshi. I have Luigi and DK, but I don't have any confidence in them, even if I am able to beat people here with them. I hope Yoshi doesn't go back to sucking in Smash 5. I would still use him, but that isn't the point.

On the other hand, I don't really concern myself with a character's appearance. CRQ said me not liking Dr. Mario, but I am willing to play him. There are very few characters in the game that I want to almost never play, such as Dedede.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
As far as I can tell, I like characters who punch and kick a lot and also have a projectile.

The projectile part is really important to me, I can barely function in a fighting game if I don't have a projectile to throw out. Unless it's Divekick or a 3D fighter lol.

I don't know, you guys think any of my Sm4sh mains fit an archetype?

Edit: I'd like to point out how the Discord chat is the first SmashGaf chat most of us here actually use. Idk what they did right but I'm glad they did it.
 
D

Dimitri LH

Member
Thanks for the Zelda tips, gotta try the fast fall nair out. Ive definetly done the throw to up air set up, more reliable then it looks.

Man, wish I had a better local scene. Most tourneys are just too far away for me to go too.... -_-
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
As far as I can tell, I like characters who punch and kick a lot and also have a projectile.

The projectile part is really important to me, I can barely function in a fighting game if I don't have a projectile to throw out. Unless it's Divekick or a 3D fighter lol.

I don't know, you guys think any of my Sm4sh mains fit an archetype?

Edit: I'd like to point out how the Discord chat is the first SmashGaf chat most of us here actually use. Idk what they did right but I'm glad they did it.
Click to expand...

Zero Suit really seems like the best fit, or perhaps Pikachu. ZSS/Dr Mario is a pretty good combination. I'd still keep Fox around though. Larry Lurr's pocket ZSS in person is actually pretty effing scary, and the offensive pressure he does with Fox definitely benefits him when he uses ZSS.

I've been actually using TONS of ZSS/Pikachu lately because of the shield stun changes.





As far as character choices go, my playstyle tends to be pretty lame (customs Duck Hunt, timed people out in tourneys with Diddy Kong, my Sheik is not heavy on rushdown). But I also like suffocating opponents with rush down when necessary, so I don't mind top tiers either (Yun, Cody in SF, Zero and Nova in Marvel).
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
Karsticles said:
I can't use rushdown characters. My mindset is always about controlling space. I usually do best with wonky characters that others find unintuitive, but I find commonly used characters to be unintuitive. For example, I can't use Yun in SF, and I can't use Wolverine or Weaker in Marvel.
Click to expand...

That's kinda how I feel, but I'm trying to break out of that mindset which is why I'm practicing with Pikachu.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Grotte said:
Anyone of you got some tips against Dedede?
I play Peach and I constantly struggle in this matchup.
Click to expand...
They'll usually try to bait your attacks by hovering near you and punishing your whiffed attacks, so if you're challenging air to air, aim a bit higher and farther than where they usually are. You need to also deflect his Gordos instead of blocking them, if you can manage that you control all the space.

He's a fat bastard so he's hard to kill. Fair and up smash should be good ko moves. And be careful on rolling behind him because his down smash hits hard
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
FSLink said:
Zero Suit really seems like the best fit, or perhaps Pikachu. ZSS/Dr Mario is a pretty good combination. I'd still keep Fox around though. Larry Lurr's pocket ZSS in person is actually pretty effing scary, and the offensive pressure he does with Fox definitely benefits him when he uses ZSS.

I've been actually using TONS of ZSS/Pikachu lately because of the shield stun changes.
Click to expand...
That's something good to hear. Of course I won't drop Fox but yeah, as much as I hate to admit it I think learning and mastering a top tier can be the key to success for me. :)
 
G

Grotte

Neo Member
Boney said:
They'll usually try to bait your attacks by hovering near you and punishing your whiffed attacks, so if you're challenging air to air, aim a bit higher and farther than where they usually are. You need to also deflect his Gordos instead of blocking them, if you can manage that you control all the space.

He's a fat bastard so he's hard to kill. Fair and up smash should be good ko moves. And be careful on rolling behind him because his down smash hits hard
Click to expand...

Thanks, hopefully this helps the next time I face one in fg.
My biggest problem with him so far are the gordos. Blocking them from far away is no big deal, but when I'm close to him I get hit way to often.

Also is there a way to punish Sonics dair? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to have to landing lag whatsoever.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Grotte said:
Ah, I see.
It probably fits the character since he's supposed to be fast and all, but sometimes I just wish he'd have a bit more lag.
Click to expand...
Up b to down air is a free escape from any sort of situation. It's completely stupid, you're better off following his next action, at high % they'll love to throw an fsmash out of it so you can punish that, and at lower percents they'll go with ftilt (nothing to do against that it's completely safe) or go with another defensive option to get the space they want, and since they can just run away, well... Yeah
 
G

Grotte

Neo Member
Boney said:
Up b to down air is a free escape from any sort of situation. It's completely stupid, you're better off following his next action, at high % they'll love to throw an fsmash out of it so you can punish that, and at lower percents they'll go with ftilt (nothing to do against that it's completely safe) or go with another defensive option to get the space they want, and since they can just run away, well... Yeah
Click to expand...

Well at least I'm not the only one who has trouble with that :p
 
P

Poltergust

Member
Question for those of you that follow this game competitively:

Do you think we should start doing 3-stock, 8 minute matches? At this point in the game's life, I've noticed a lot of matches taking roughly 2-3 minutes to finish, and I've seen quite a few that end under a minute, even among top players. Also, due to the shield-stun change, the game is becoming a lot more aggressive, so matches will become even faster in the future.

I'm personally all for it. The extra time per match needed for the additional stock is honestly rather minuscule, so there shouldn't be any additional scheduling problems that can occur from this change in the ruleset. This will also give players more playtime, even if they go 0-2.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Poltergust said:
Question for those of you that follow this game competitively:

Do you think we should start doing 3-stock, 8 minute matches? At this point in the game's life, I've noticed a lot of matches taking roughly 2-3 minutes to finish, and I've seen quite a few that end under a minute, even among top players. Also, due to the shield-stun change, the game is becoming a lot more aggressive, so matches will become even faster in the future.

I'm personally all for it. The extra time per match needed for the additional stock is honestly rather minuscule, so there shouldn't be any additional scheduling problems that can occur from this change in the ruleset. This will also give players more playtime, even if they go 0-2.
Click to expand...

Honestly, if Brawl can do it so can we. It also lessens the severity of those unfortunate SD's we see all too often. :(
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Poltergust said:
Question for those of you that follow this game competitively:

Do you think we should start doing 3-stock, 8 minute matches? At this point in the game's life, I've noticed a lot of matches taking roughly 2-3 minutes to finish, and I've seen quite a few that end under a minute, even among top players. Also, due to the shield-stun change, the game is becoming a lot more aggressive, so matches will become even faster in the future.

I'm personally all for it. The extra time per match needed for the additional stock is honestly rather minuscule, so there shouldn't be any additional scheduling problems that can occur from this change in the ruleset. This will also give players more playtime, even if they go 0-2.
Click to expand...

I think it's always been a matter of whether the TOs judge that the tournament has time for 3-stock matches. I'd be fine with it. But let's also not discount that there are certainly matches that take a long time. When it comes to projectile and zoning characters, matches can drag, and can easily go 6-8 minutes per 3-stock match. I don't think anyone out there is saying they think 2-stock is more fair or anything, but it moves things along faster and that is an important attribute. For that reason, I don't know that 3-stock can become a standard. There will always be weeklies and single-day tournaments that simply don't have the time to run 3-stock and get out of their venues in time. That's certainly the case in NorCal, where the largest weekly ("Come on and ban") almost always runs right until closing time, and often goes slightly past (to the employees' annoyance).
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Poltergust said:
Question for those of you that follow this game competitively:

Do you think we should start doing 3-stock, 8 minute matches? At this point in the game's life, I've noticed a lot of matches taking roughly 2-3 minutes to finish, and I've seen quite a few that end under a minute, even among top players. Also, due to the shield-stun change, the game is becoming a lot more aggressive, so matches will become even faster in the future.

I'm personally all for it. The extra time per match needed for the additional stock is honestly rather minuscule, so there shouldn't be any additional scheduling problems that can occur from this change in the ruleset. This will also give players more playtime, even if they go 0-2.
Click to expand...
What about the potential for certain matchups to inherently drag, like DHD?
 
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