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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Without his second jump, Cloud is easily gimped. However, if in limit break mode / you pretend he's Ness, you can do alright with him. I like him a lot.
I can't be the only one constantly suiciding because I accidentally press A a second time on Cloud's Up-B, can I? Lol I just can't help myself, I keep thinking he'll grab the ledge on the way down.
My first two games were just against Link in Midgar to get a feel for Cloud. And it was suicide city. How awesome is it to be fighting Link with Cloud, though? Smash 4 has totally delivered on all those childhood crossover dreams in a way I thought it just couldn't anymore.
But Midgar, though. Unreal stage. Absolutely brilliant, maybe my favourite original Smash 4 stage. And you don't need more than 2 tracks when the two you have are so legendary. Very, very happy with how this DLC turned out. A massive step above having to pay for Brawl retreads like Mewtwo and Lucas (as much as I like those two). Roy, Ryu and Cloud have been fantastic. Corrin's a bummer, but I can't wait to see Bayonetta, and having seen Midgar I'm almost more excited for Bayo's stage.
My first two games were just against Link in Midgar to get a feel for Cloud. And it was suicide city. How awesome is it to be fighting Link with Cloud, though? Smash 4 has totally delivered on all those childhood crossover dreams in a way I thought it just couldn't anymore.
But Midgar, though. Unreal stage. Absolutely brilliant, maybe my favourite original Smash 4 stage. And you don't need more than 2 tracks when the two you have are so legendary. Very, very happy with how this DLC turned out. A massive step above having to pay for Brawl retreads like Mewtwo and Lucas (as much as I like those two). Roy, Ryu and Cloud have been fantastic. Corrin's a bummer, but I can't wait to see Bayonetta, and having seen Midgar I'm almost more excited for Bayo's stage.
Professor Beef
Banned
I only know Corrin from Dragonball
Decided to pop back into For Glory after months of not touching the mode, just to see Cloud in action. None of the three guys playing him that I fought seemed to be very good, but it was expected with everybody trying hin out. I noticed Blade Beam does a decent job stopping my Robin's projectiles, yet they all barely used it and got zoned, only to rush back in with Limit Break and taking a Checkmate instead.
Even if I missed Quick Thunder and Fire Wall badly, I had fun overall, and I even got to play some matches against a very good Marth!
Even if I missed Quick Thunder and Fire Wall badly, I had fun overall, and I even got to play some matches against a very good Marth!
Karsticles
Member
Pikachu can't convert off of grabs, either.
...yes he can.
uthrow -> thunder, or jump thunder depending on DI
I actually get it pretty consistently now.
Cloud is really interesting. Limit Break can be cancelled with B, so you can run around and charge bit by bit while moving around, then hit the opponent with retreating nairs and fairs while you get bar.
dthrow -> turn around jab, or ftilt is pretty good at low percents; also dthrow -> turn around dtilt -> uair ; at mid percents, dthrow -> bair works nicely.
Otherwise his throws seem to be just for setting up or gaining space.
uair is ridiculous for how long it stays out and it auto cancels. uthrow -> follow opponent with uairs is pretty good.
All his tilts seem decent. hip check/pivot ftilt is really good.
Neutral B moves himself forward a bit giving him a bit of an extra recovery option/stalling option. Limit Break version goes through other projectiles, except Lucas PK Fire which clashes of course.
Side B is great for trapping landings kinda like Marth's, and Limit Break Side B at max range is super safe. Reading dodges or air dodges with Limit Break Side B is a great way to get stocks.
Up B is meh, but it's not Little Mac tier. Got a few KOs at high percent with uthrow -> limit break upB. Not really a great KO option but a fun gimmick.
Making his recovery garbage is definitely intentional to help balance his Limit Breaks. Throw Cloud off stage so he's forced to use it on his upB and have to recharge, since he doesn't "lose" charge by getting hit.
Limit Break downB is pretty meh on stage, I'd rather use Limit Break sideB, fsmash, or dsmash to get KOs.
In the air though, it's great for catching air dodges.
The Xtortionist
Member
Played Cloud against a friend for about 3 hours and had a blast. He's basically the swordsman I've wanted since forever - quick, reaching blade attacks, but with a solid projectile and ways to make them approach. Link and Toon Link also fit the bill to varying degrees, but they never really clicked with me...maybe I don't like how projectile-focused focused they are. One projectile is enough for me 
Cloud's recovery is total ass, of course, but thems the breaks. At least the limit version of Climhazzard is effective, and it seems pretty difficult to keep Cloud from reaching his limit break. If you don't need to recover, you still get a very powerful Blade Beam and a shield-pounding Cross Slash, plus whatever buffs the limit state grants. The whole limit mechanic is like an addicting minigame - it's fun to build it up during any downtime in the match. I hardly ever chase characters off-stage and just build limit instead lol.
Really fun character. Sakurai did good. Fucking shame about the Midgar song selection, though. There's at least a good 8-10 songs from FF7 that absolutely deserve to be there.
Cloud's recovery is total ass, of course, but thems the breaks. At least the limit version of Climhazzard is effective, and it seems pretty difficult to keep Cloud from reaching his limit break. If you don't need to recover, you still get a very powerful Blade Beam and a shield-pounding Cross Slash, plus whatever buffs the limit state grants. The whole limit mechanic is like an addicting minigame - it's fun to build it up during any downtime in the match. I hardly ever chase characters off-stage and just build limit instead lol.
Really fun character. Sakurai did good. Fucking shame about the Midgar song selection, though. There's at least a good 8-10 songs from FF7 that absolutely deserve to be there.
It specifically increases his gravity.
Also, you can do something similar to Diddy's Instant Popgun Cancel with Cloud, and cancel his Limit Break animation to an attack.
I think some of you guys are in denial about Cloud. Now, as a disclaimer, there are no "bad" characters in this game, every character can beat at least half the cast. I don't mean to be a buzzkill here, I had some fun playing as Cloud earlier myself. As with any character in the game, if one enjoys playing as them, great! I mean, I play Bowser, Jigglypuff and Mewtwo in that order, so I'm not a tier queen.
But Cloud is quite plainly mid-low tier, and it's a little disappointing to wait, be hyped, and spend money for a character with little potential. Everything that he does well, other characters do better. Besides the limit breaks he doesn't have much going for him. That "____ hits so hard" talk on /r/smashbros means about as much for Cloud as it did for Mewtwo - it's a complete exaggeration. The only attack that hits hard is fsmash. When you hit a mid-weight character with Cloud's bair at 120%+ by the edge of the stage and they survive... then no, his bair doesn't hit hard. Neither does uair, the aerial that kills off the top somewhere after 130%, usually around 140... Frame data is generally lackluster also.
He's authentic to the game he comes from looks-wise, but he doesn't fit into the competitive meta. For casuals this is fine, he has a powerful fsmash and the limit break stuff. But for competitive play I don't see it at all. Sakurai and his team know the importance of a combo throw and yet Cloud doesn't have one. At 0% he can often pull off a dthrow to reverse side b, but it isn't a true combo, in a meta where Ike exists and has true combos. His aerials are generally underwhelming in terms of knockback. True autocanceling only happens if you jump straight into an aerial, one cannot fast fall or time an aerial close to the ground without incurring lag.
His recovery is terrible. Just terrible. The regular version of his up b doesn't sweetspot, making it incredibly exploitable. Does Cloud's opponent have a projectile? Do they have a ranged attack or smash they can charge? Cause Cloud is toast. What do you think it looks like when Cloud's up b meets a Villager's tree? That Cloud arrives with an up b like this in the same patch that fixed Bowser's exploitable reverse up b is puzzling. Edge guard him once and he's done. Half the time charged limit breaks have to be used for recovery because his air jump basically has no vertical movement.
Also, I can't help but notice his aerials have underwhelming sound effects. Nair, uair and bair sound like a gust of wind. Not satisfying on hit.
I know people want to be hyped about Cloud, but I think he'll impact the meta about as much as Mewtwo did. Which is to say, very little. It's nice that his charged down b has the knockback of Jigglypuff's rest, but that doesn't save the character. That Cloud is as bad as he is (relative to the other characters) shakes my confidence a little for the next 2 DLC characters. Bayonetta's theoretical moveset should make her very high tier, but given that Sakurai considered Cloud ready for release in the state he's in, I'm not sure either of the remaining characters will shake up the competitive meta at all. We'll have to wait and see if Bayonetta can combo people up to the blast zone and actually kill them, or if it's all orchestrated flashiness that still requires the Bayonetta player to get an honest kill off one of a couple killing moves out of neutral.
Because that's the thing, good characters in this game aren't honest. They either have ridiculous bread and butter combos/throw combos or a very safe neutral game, or both. And many of them have all sorts of ways to get early kills. Given what we've seen and what was explained of Sakurai's concepts for Bayonetta, he's given her weak frame data to compensate for combo potential... we'll see. Corrin, it's hard to tell. The long range attacks focus there may mean some pretty weak sourspots with Corrin's attacks, leaving him/her struggling against rushdown tactics. We'll have to wait and see on that one. But as someone who mains a character who even after a major buff isn't top 15 I say the last thing Smash 4 needs is another mid to low tier character. We've got enough of those, and given that the patches will likely dry up quickly after the last DLC character comes out, there may not be time to fix whatever problems they arrive with.
I just want to see more competitive characters, that's all.
But Cloud is quite plainly mid-low tier, and it's a little disappointing to wait, be hyped, and spend money for a character with little potential. Everything that he does well, other characters do better. Besides the limit breaks he doesn't have much going for him. That "____ hits so hard" talk on /r/smashbros means about as much for Cloud as it did for Mewtwo - it's a complete exaggeration. The only attack that hits hard is fsmash. When you hit a mid-weight character with Cloud's bair at 120%+ by the edge of the stage and they survive... then no, his bair doesn't hit hard. Neither does uair, the aerial that kills off the top somewhere after 130%, usually around 140... Frame data is generally lackluster also.
He's authentic to the game he comes from looks-wise, but he doesn't fit into the competitive meta. For casuals this is fine, he has a powerful fsmash and the limit break stuff. But for competitive play I don't see it at all. Sakurai and his team know the importance of a combo throw and yet Cloud doesn't have one. At 0% he can often pull off a dthrow to reverse side b, but it isn't a true combo, in a meta where Ike exists and has true combos. His aerials are generally underwhelming in terms of knockback. True autocanceling only happens if you jump straight into an aerial, one cannot fast fall or time an aerial close to the ground without incurring lag.
His recovery is terrible. Just terrible. The regular version of his up b doesn't sweetspot, making it incredibly exploitable. Does Cloud's opponent have a projectile? Do they have a ranged attack or smash they can charge? Cause Cloud is toast. What do you think it looks like when Cloud's up b meets a Villager's tree? That Cloud arrives with an up b like this in the same patch that fixed Bowser's exploitable reverse up b is puzzling. Edge guard him once and he's done. Half the time charged limit breaks have to be used for recovery because his air jump basically has no vertical movement.
Also, I can't help but notice his aerials have underwhelming sound effects. Nair, uair and bair sound like a gust of wind. Not satisfying on hit.
I know people want to be hyped about Cloud, but I think he'll impact the meta about as much as Mewtwo did. Which is to say, very little. It's nice that his charged down b has the knockback of Jigglypuff's rest, but that doesn't save the character. That Cloud is as bad as he is (relative to the other characters) shakes my confidence a little for the next 2 DLC characters. Bayonetta's theoretical moveset should make her very high tier, but given that Sakurai considered Cloud ready for release in the state he's in, I'm not sure either of the remaining characters will shake up the competitive meta at all. We'll have to wait and see if Bayonetta can combo people up to the blast zone and actually kill them, or if it's all orchestrated flashiness that still requires the Bayonetta player to get an honest kill off one of a couple killing moves out of neutral.
Because that's the thing, good characters in this game aren't honest. They either have ridiculous bread and butter combos/throw combos or a very safe neutral game, or both. And many of them have all sorts of ways to get early kills. Given what we've seen and what was explained of Sakurai's concepts for Bayonetta, he's given her weak frame data to compensate for combo potential... we'll see. Corrin, it's hard to tell. The long range attacks focus there may mean some pretty weak sourspots with Corrin's attacks, leaving him/her struggling against rushdown tactics. We'll have to wait and see on that one. But as someone who mains a character who even after a major buff isn't top 15 I say the last thing Smash 4 needs is another mid to low tier character. We've got enough of those, and given that the patches will likely dry up quickly after the last DLC character comes out, there may not be time to fix whatever problems they arrive with.
I just want to see more competitive characters, that's all.
Cloud will definitely have to depend on Limit Breaks to rack damage and get kills for the most part. This will make or break his tier placement if he can reliably do so...which it seems like he could with how easy it is to cancel it, and the ability to cancel it into normals too.
With Limit Break fully charged, he can do stuff like auto cancelled dair to LB downB as a kill confirm.
LB neutral B can go through projectiles and punish zoning opponents, LB side B is a fantastic kill move and really safe on shield.
I dunno I optimistically have him around B+ tier or so, around where Wario and Ike would be.
But yeah, his throws definitely feel designed around gaining space to charge up Limit Break. His mediocre upB is clearly designed around the Limit Break mechanic too. It'll be important in matchups to throw Cloud off the stage to force him to use LB on recovery, since he can't lose LB charge without using it or losing a stock.
With Limit Break fully charged, he can do stuff like auto cancelled dair to LB downB as a kill confirm.
LB neutral B can go through projectiles and punish zoning opponents, LB side B is a fantastic kill move and really safe on shield.
I dunno I optimistically have him around B+ tier or so, around where Wario and Ike would be.
But yeah, his throws definitely feel designed around gaining space to charge up Limit Break. His mediocre upB is clearly designed around the Limit Break mechanic too. It'll be important in matchups to throw Cloud off the stage to force him to use LB on recovery, since he can't lose LB charge without using it or losing a stock.
During the direct, I thought Cloud looked least interesting to play as. But my initial impressions are that he's sword Little Mac, and I fucking love Little Mac. If I had to bet on his tier placement, I wouldn't. He's high risk, high reward. He could be low as shit like Mac. He could be high like Melee puff. It's hard to tell with these kinds of characters early on.
Early impressions for Ryu were very mixed so I'm going to wait and see if Cloud has any impact on the meta. I won't write him off the same day of his release lol.
By the way, what are the impressions on the buffed/changed characters? Mewtwo, Link, Kirby, Greninja, Ganondorf and Bowser seem to have gotten many changes.
By the way, what are the impressions on the buffed/changed characters? Mewtwo, Link, Kirby, Greninja, Ganondorf and Bowser seem to have gotten many changes.
Karsticles
Member
Jump to down B only works at certain percentages for Pikachu. At KO %, he usually can't do it.
I think Cloud has a lot of potential. IMO Cronoc, you should give Cloud players at least a month, and then face a good one.
I think Cloud has a lot of potential. IMO Cronoc, you should give Cloud players at least a month, and then face a good one.
Professor Beef
Banned
For real. Cloud hasn't even been out for 24 hours yet!
Gotdatmoney
Member
Was there any najor changes made to yoshi inthis update. Friend is tweaking cause he dropped a lot of places at eventhubs.
Huh? He can get a KO if you follow their DI at KO%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0uPJTgeZI
Eventhubs tier list is not reputable at ALL. And no, no changes: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/
Karsticles
Member
I am making SO many mistakes with him because of the changes. They are so subtle.
Amazing fact: Mewtwo's fastfall Fair will hit Pikachu now. Mewtwo has AN OFFENSIVE OPTION AGAINST PIKACHU. It's also +2 on shield. :-O
That's right folks, MEWTWO HAS A SAFE OFFENSIVE OPTION.
Mewtwo players are going to have to completely change the way they play him.
I've never seen ESAM land this - his opponent always gets to DI out of it.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Karst is basically saying Mewtwo has tools now and he's struggling with the idea of not having to try as hard to win lol
I kinda wish my characters got anything at all, but alas I'll have to wait for the February patch. At this point in the game's life it looks to be rather healthy and aggressive, which I enjoy considering where it was just 11 months ago.
I kinda wish my characters got anything at all, but alas I'll have to wait for the February patch. At this point in the game's life it looks to be rather healthy and aggressive, which I enjoy considering where it was just 11 months ago.
Astral Dog
Member
So how is Cloud?
Worth dusting off the Smash disc?
Worth dusting off the Smash disc?
Cloud's really fun so far. Honestly just want to go home and lab more stuff with him lol. UAir is amazing; seems pretty lagless and amazing for combos. Limit Break has a lot of potential too; there's honestly some dumb stuff potential for Finishing Touch. He's definitely not top tier, but he feels pretty balanced tbh even with how absurd Finishing Touch's KO power seems to be. Can't wait to mess around with this character some more~
Professor Beef
Banned
Just glad that Ryu didn't get nerfed. :whew:
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I hope *insert your main* gets nerfed next patch
Did you see Shulk got many buffs? Both damage and ending lag.
Pretty happy overall with the balance changes. Though no kill throw for Duck Hunt?
I've seen him land it quite a few times, can't recall any specific matches though. It's also still percent specific too, if they get too high you got to start going for off stage fairs, usmash reads, dair jab lock setups, etc.
Yep. I was actually feeling kinda down on him lately, and while these buffs don't quite address my issues with him, it's something. I actually spent most of yesterday just messing around with Cloud; will have to use Shulk more since I felt it was odd NAir recovered so fast all of a sudden with what little I used him yesterday.
Shamrock7r
Member
Cloud feels great. Took some games off some good players yesterday. I am feeling anywhere between mid to high mid tier for him
Cronoc I think you are selling him a little short. I have been playing him like I play Mii Brawler. That is the bes t comparison for him, not necessarily Ike or other sword fighters. He can control the stage with his movement. You have to recover high. We need to play some tonight. I think my style lends itself to cloud and maybe you can see some things you might be missing
Cronoc I think you are selling him a little short. I have been playing him like I play Mii Brawler. That is the bes t comparison for him, not necessarily Ike or other sword fighters. He can control the stage with his movement. You have to recover high. We need to play some tonight. I think my style lends itself to cloud and maybe you can see some things you might be missing
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Cloud looks fun to play. Smash Bros. has always lacked a fast swordsman archetype; Roy was probably supposed to fill it, but his moveset and aerial movement feel far too stiff to be adequate for it.
What the fuck.
What the fuck.
Nothing ever happens to Puff, so I'm not worried.
Shamrock7r
Member
We are having a discussion about his competitive viability. We aren't being unrealistic by having that convo. Why do you take issue with that?
You misunderstand. Talking about his competitive viability is fine. But there were a few comments about where he places "specifically on a tier", and that's impossible to determine in less than 24 hours.
Karsticles
Member
The Mewtwo buffs really are huge. Here's a list of what changed with him:
1) Every single aerial attack has 2-3 frames less landing lag.
2) Fair hitbox fixed (you can now be offensive with this and end at +2).
3) Uair hitbox MUCH better, and is now safe on hit.
4) Run/Walk speed increased (this feels weird).
5) Shadow Ball recoil cut in ~1/2 (good change, but again, weird).
6) Bair hitbox fixed (supposedly - I haven't messed with it enough to feel comfortable).
7) Dair hitbox buffed.
9) Dthrow angle significantly changed.
10) Fsmash deadzone gone.
Issues he still has:
1) Confusion is still really unreliable.
2) Nair ender random.
3) Grab rangelol.
4) Utilt is garbage.
5) Time between Jab1 and Jab2 is too much; DI-able as well.
6) USmash is DI-able, probably still pops people sometimes.
7) Fthrow probably still escapable.
8) Uncharged Shadow Ball still unsafe on hit.
9) Teleport wallbounce SD potential.
10) Opponents can DI out of Nair.
I think the big difference now is that Mewtwo shouldn't be 100% centered around Shadow Ball and Nair. He has to use more of his toolset now and be more aggressive to maximize his potential.
Duck Hunt shouldn't have a kill throw.
1) Every single aerial attack has 2-3 frames less landing lag.
2) Fair hitbox fixed (you can now be offensive with this and end at +2).
3) Uair hitbox MUCH better, and is now safe on hit.
4) Run/Walk speed increased (this feels weird).
5) Shadow Ball recoil cut in ~1/2 (good change, but again, weird).
6) Bair hitbox fixed (supposedly - I haven't messed with it enough to feel comfortable).
7) Dair hitbox buffed.
9) Dthrow angle significantly changed.
10) Fsmash deadzone gone.
Issues he still has:
1) Confusion is still really unreliable.
2) Nair ender random.
3) Grab rangelol.
4) Utilt is garbage.
5) Time between Jab1 and Jab2 is too much; DI-able as well.
6) USmash is DI-able, probably still pops people sometimes.
7) Fthrow probably still escapable.
8) Uncharged Shadow Ball still unsafe on hit.
9) Teleport wallbounce SD potential.
10) Opponents can DI out of Nair.
I think the big difference now is that Mewtwo shouldn't be 100% centered around Shadow Ball and Nair. He has to use more of his toolset now and be more aggressive to maximize his potential.
It's more like I keep expecting A to happen, but B is happening instead. I think Mewtwo might be the first character to get a walk/run speed buff, unless Robin got one. That really changes how a character plays and feels.Karst is basically saying Mewtwo has tools now and he's struggling with the idea of not having to try as hard to win lol
I kinda wish my characters got anything at all, but alas I'll have to wait for the February patch. At this point in the game's life it looks to be rather healthy and aggressive, which I enjoy considering where it was just 11 months ago.
Dust it off!
I think he's pretty fine.
He just got buffed. :-(
I've never seen him land it in a top 4 or something.Pretty happy overall with the balance changes. Though no kill throw for Duck Hunt?
I've seen him land it quite a few times, can't recall any specific matches though. It's also still percent specific too, if they get too high you got to start going for off stage fairs, usmash reads, dair jab lock setups, etc.
Duck Hunt shouldn't have a kill throw.
I would love to play another long set against your Cloud. I need to completely revamp my Mewtwo play.
Cloud is by far the stiffest swordsman, IMO. But he's more grounded.
Shamrock7r
Member
For me, when I say I think he is on this tier level or that tier level, it's easier to visualize how viable he might be, relative to other characters. I don't think anyone has tried giving him an exact placement like "5th, 9th best" etc.
Karst lets play this evening. I will be on later. I was curious to get your opinion/critique my cloud from yesterday. Do you think I am approaching him right?
Karsticles
Member
I think your "turtle and build Limit Break" strategy is really effective. Maybe too effective. You SD'd quite often, and I got hit a lot because I challenged you when I shouldn't have. I think we need some more long sets to figure the whole thing out, because I am really off my game with the Mewtwo changes right now.
Oh yeah, what was with you using LB (Limit Break) neutal B and SDing so much?
We should also lab to see if Cloud can dtilt under Shadow Ball at various charges. That's a potential tool that went unused.
Oh man, I just realized: if Mewtwo's run speed was increased, how much better can he follow an Uncharged Shadow Ball now? That was already one of his best offensive approaches.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Yes.
And also if your discs get dusty you should consider not leaving them out in the open ;b
NamikazeBurst
Member
Maybe I should try Mewtwo again. It sounds like the way I used to play him actually works now.
Or maybe I should play Yoshi.
Or maybe I should play Yoshi.
Shamrock7r
Member
Sds are a combination of trying things and just not knowing the range of recoveries. His limit break neutral b actually kills fairly early, and even if the block it if you are quick you can follow up. I am trying to find the right balance of using his neutral b and side b specials during limit break
Karsticles
Member
Shamrock, I can't ever promise play time because of the baby, so don't hold up waiting for me.
He still isn't a strong character, IMO. He just has a lot of buggy stuff fixed. You would be a fool to swap from Yoshi, unless there's a character that counterpicks Yoshi but Mewtwo does well against. For example, I always hear you complain about Rosalina, but IMO Mewtwo has a good matchup against her.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Regarding swordsmen, I think Ike and Cloud do the most moving around, imo Ike isn't stiff though.
Or is he? *lewd.png*
Or is he? *lewd.png*
Shamrock7r
Member
Ike moves, but he Moreso moves to control the side he is on, and slowly limit and suffocate the player by spacing into their srarea, shrinking it. Cloud is more like Mii Brawler, he benefits from jumping all over the place.