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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Been messing around with a bunch of them (or well, mostly for the characters I play) today in training mode. Really hoping they become legal in tournies; they're a lot of fun.
Shulk's Hyper Monado Arts are interesting, but I feel like I have to play as vanilla Shulk most of the time. The armored Back Slash custom is pretty cool too. Of course, there's Hyper Smash + Power Vision cheese lol.
The main Pikachu custom I've been using is his Heavy Skull Bash one (which gives him a pretty nice KO move). Thunderwave seems too laggy for me to capitalize off the stun it gives most of the time, though I wanna experiment with it more.
omg Kirby gets so much better with customs. ESPECIALLY the Upper Cutter one.
Link gets better with customs too; mostly the one that gives him the regular Boomerang (waaaay better than Gale) and the Meteor Bombs, though this one depends on how the good the opponent's vertical recovery is.
Greninja's customs are pretty mediocre overall, but the one Water Shuriken custom that lets him combo into his Up Smash is pretty neat.
Ike I feel gets a lot better with customs definitely (especially the Close Combat side special), but I'm still not sure which version of Aether I should be using.
Yea random stutters here and there.
Yea wonder why. GGs.
Steve Youngblood
Member
My biggest opposition to custom moves is just that I mainly have zero desire to unlock them and almost less to go through the customization steps. I'm not saying I expect it, but for me to really embrace them I really would only like them if choices were available at the character select screen beyond premade customs. Or maybe that's already a thing and I just don't know what I'm talking about because I've barely paid attention to customs.
direct_quote
Member
I'm surprised that Sakurai didn't give most of the characters some of the customs, instead of keeping mostly the default moves from previous games (or really boring b moves like Palutena). At least giving Lucina more of her customs in her default would make her feel less like Marth...
Been playing Megaman's customs since the 3DS. I love them, especially Danger Wrap. That move is so good that I wish that is his default side B.
And Ganon's are pretty cool too. I think every option and combination is very viable.
Ganon gets an incredible downB that goes over projectiles and a sword neutral B with armor and lots of range and killing power.
I like Mario's customs a lot. Gust cape and High Powered FLUDD are great.
A lot of characters get more anti Luma tech like Piercing Needles with Sheik too.
This is why Nintendo needs to patch in a way to quickly unlock them all at once.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Here's a discussion for people who wake up while I sleep: does the lack of advanced techniques affect your opinion of Sm4sh as a competitive title compared to the previous entries of the series? Do you think there are other aspects of the game that will allow Sm4sh to thrive despite its low technical ceiling?
I hope this stirs some discussion, I saw this on Reddit and thought it was interesting to think about.
I hope this stirs some discussion, I saw this on Reddit and thought it was interesting to think about.
direct_quote
Member
Hard to tell, but there have been games with lower skill scenes that thrived because they were the newest thing. Like TF2 over TFC.. But sadly I think player bases shift faster for mostly online games (which Smash isn't).
Professor Beef
Banned
All Smash games are competitive. If you're referring to tournaments and stuff like that, I'm sure Smash 4 is still very viable. It's just how the Smash 4 players will push the game.
RomanceDawn
Member
More Advanced techniques will be discovered. Maybe not the same ones from before but there will be more. They may be character specific but they are out there and they will be found. Melee in its first year was not played like Melee in its 5th year which is nothing like it is played today.
I love advanced techniques but it doesn't need to function like Melee for me to be satisfied. As long as big tournaments are varied with a lot of characters and the game is fairly balanced I will stay happy.
Mario gains some wonky shit from his builds.
I'm feeling an update that turns off hazards and a more intuitive customs unlock/use coming... some day.
The lack of them? No... since the game does not lack techs, lol. (I am slowly getting better at the PPF-Smash and PPDancing Blade with Marth, lol.)
The lack of a wide breadth and effectiveness of ATs? Not sure since a lot of tools are still rather on the cusp of being used regularly. Sm4sh is definitely much simpler on input requirements than Melee and, because of that, there's much less explicit character control due to the lack of Melee's finer ATs that really let you exploit the engine and the character.
One of the biggest strengths that Sm4sh currently has and that it hasn't shed nearly as fast as Brawl shed (largely due to the lack of infinite chains, no Brawl-MK/Snake/ICs), are the match-ups and the games around what the characters bring rather than what ATs can break the engine with a sickening crack depending on the character. (Customs are a further end to this as they introduce even more variance to a match-up, and it allows for people to further theory-craft builds and options. Basically taking Sm4sh down the route of MtG rather than taking the route of Melee and turning into Tekken.)
No 3DS... but after that post I unlocked baseball bat fake nails for Bowser, so that's good. Just need to unlock that equipment that speeds up the bat - wind up and range are pretty poor, though it still helps plenty already.
If they're trying to recover low I hope you know your dair spikes... Or really whenever they're recovering and a dair won't cause an self destruct.
Melee isn't exactly a fair comparison though. When it came out there wasn't a competitive scene analyzing the game and game data like there is now with Smash 4. Things like wavedashing were known of fairly early in Melee's lifetime. Its usefulness was discounted, but it was known. Perfect pivot is no wave dash, though. The kind of advanced tech that lies waiting to be found in Smash 4 is generally character or even matchup specific and context sensitive, as you say. An extra 10% damage here or there at best, esoteric and unimplemented by anyone at worst. Customs are the only thing that can save us, by at least mixing things up and making this iteration of Smash one where breadth of knowledge is more important than previous ones.
I don't think there's any problem with it. It's actually a lot more desirable and more in tune with the spirit of the game where complex input are forgone for good judgement and spacing.
The game has plenty of tools to work out the different matchups and the matches flow great.
It'll keep building and some new techniques are going to be found, but I hope it doesn't change how the game plays drastically.
Karsticles
Member
I completed all the Crazy Orders trophies without a "speed up the swing" item, so I'll give this advice:
1) Giant enemies where you get a partner are a cinch. Just let your partner get in there, then run in behind and swing.
2) Metal enemies are all slow and stupid. They eat the bat every time.
3) The bat OHKO's multi-man smashes, including if you throw the bat as a projectile.
Between these three categories, you can get into the 20s with the bat easy, and you'll still have ~9 minutes left. Avoid fighting characters with counters, and IMO, avoid the hell out of Palutena. Her and Megaman are responsible for 50% of my deaths in vs. CPU modes, and the other 50% is stage antics.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I get scared trying to punish with the dair off stage; it seems like it takes me too deep if I miss resulting in a suicide. Any tips to avoid this?
Karsticles
Member
1) Run off the ledge instead of jumping.
2) Don't use your air jump unless you are trying to recover.
3) Between your air jump and your up B, you should be able to recover from almost anywhere.
I know that ledge chasing is intimidating when you first start doing it. When you really start trying, you will die sometimes on accident. Just take it like learning to ride a bike: you fall down sometimes. Even after thousands of matches with Bowser, I still SD sometimes on accident. But the numerous kills I get are worth it, and, more importantly, I now feel much more comfortable off the ledge.
InvincibleAgent
Member
Mm thanks for the crazy orders and edgeguarding tips!
3 days until match 8 is due. SalvaPot and Falawful, when are you two on?
3 days until match 8 is due. SalvaPot and Falawful, when are you two on?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I still need to finish my set with Salva. It was lagging pretty bad the other night. I might need to send Falawful a PM. He's often on the Wii U, but playing something stupid and very not Smash Bros. like Hyrule Warriors.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Great tips, thank you very much! I've been hitting training mode hard every night after work to try and improve. I'm starting to feel comfortable with the basics (spacing, tippers, spot/air dodging, fast fall, short hop, etc) which is pretty rewarding; last week I couldn't beat the CPU on 7 and now I'm able to beat it most of the time on 9. It's like the game is slowing down as I get better at making reads, although the AI does tend to be predictable. I've been trying to nair off stage because of the range but I really need to get better at using Marth's fair/dair.
The only time I would opt for a d-air to edge guard as Marth would be after conditioning the opponent with f-airs or n-airs first enough until they start air dodging to avoid those. Then you jump out and bait the air dodge by staying in distance of a f-air and then after confirming an air dodge, you fall below them and jump with a rising d-air with your double jump to hit them right after they come out of the dodge. You can definitely more easily kill yourself with a run off d-air if you end up fast falling or do it later than just after running off.
Also remember d-air doesn't spike at the tip like brawl. You need to hit with it right below Marth closer to your body.
Karsticles
Member
The CPU is pretty bad for learning about ledge guarding, because the AI loves to try and recover high. The vast majority of people who play like to recover low.
IMO, if you're trying to learn, playing the AI on 9 is a bad idea, because it does things no normal person does. Playing at around 7 is a better idea.
That said, if you're getting something out of it, then continue on!
Also, I asked this before but I don't think you responded: are you using a button to jump, or pushing up?
InvincibleAgent
Member
I believe most people recover low because Melee falling physics have been ingrained into us. You could reach the furthest by performing your Up B at the last possible moment, since after that you didn't have the same lateral control.
Karsticles
Member
I'm pumped for the next ranbat season.
I plan on adding the following questions to the ranbat survey; if anyone else wants me to add a question, let me know:
QUESTION 1: Should custom moves be the standard for this next ranbat season?
QUESTION 2: Are you satisfied with the current match standard of FT5, 3 stock, 8 minute matches?
QUESTION 3: Are you satisfied with the current stage selection options and method?
QUESTION 4: Are you satisfied with the current rules for match deadlines? (1 week to play; 1 week grace period before removal)
TLDR: Nabster killed me every time I tried to gimp him during the ranbats.
I plan on adding the following questions to the ranbat survey; if anyone else wants me to add a question, let me know:
QUESTION 1: Should custom moves be the standard for this next ranbat season?
QUESTION 2: Are you satisfied with the current match standard of FT5, 3 stock, 8 minute matches?
QUESTION 3: Are you satisfied with the current stage selection options and method?
QUESTION 4: Are you satisfied with the current rules for match deadlines? (1 week to play; 1 week grace period before removal)
People recover low because if you recover high it's easier for you to be attacked safely. Your opponent gets to stay on the ledge and try to counter your landing, and landing is very unsafe in this game because there's a moment right before you touch the ground where you can't attack and can't air dodge without getting punished, which means you're at a heavy disadvantage. If you recover low, you get invincibility frames to plan out a safe return, and your opponent has to put him/herself at risk to go after you.
TLDR: Nabster killed me every time I tried to gimp him during the ranbats.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Working on a draft of rules for my county's next Smash 4 local. I'm really pushing for custom moves for this one. If anyone has any thoughts on this proposal, I'd be interested in hearing them:
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/gb/gb.txt
The first half is the relevant part.
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/gb/gb.txt
The first half is the relevant part.
Karsticles
Member
No GG Xrd? :-(
I would mention Evo possibly including customs as a reason. Practicing by Evo standards is a rather convincing point to make.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
7 is too easy to run up and grab repeatedly; I wish I had a Marth amiibo to train because that would probably be the best partner outside of a human, right? Not sure if I want to drop $40 on a scalped figurine though...
I turned tap jump off. It took a few hours to get used to but I feel like I have wayyyy more control over my character now. It's also way easier to pull off tilts/short hop fairs.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm going to abstain from this one. Personally, I'm against them, but that's mainly an aversion to being able to give a shit about unlocking them. I don't have any strong fundamental opinion about whether they belong in competitive Smash or not though, so I don't really want my vote to count.
I'd honestly prefer if we tightened this up a little. Either with a First to 4 or 3, or by making matches 2-stock. Personally, if there's one thing we keep here, I vote strongly for 2-stock even if we keep FT5. 2-stock seems to be the standard practically everywhere, and so I'd like to see it adopted just because these not-one-sided matchups can REALLY drag on. And even the one-sided matchups where I got my ass handed to me just become kind of tedious after a bit despite wrapping up in 15-20 minutes.
Yes.
Yes.
InvincibleAgent
Member
Jumping on the answering in-thread train! Choo choo!
1. No opinion
2. Yes, but preferably there would be fewer people per bracket.
3. I believe default Halberd should not be legal because of the powerful hazards.
4. Yes, that's fine.
Who said get the amiibo of the character you're learning? I have Fox and Kirby amiibos. I rarely play as Kirby and never as Fox.
1. No opinion
2. Yes, but preferably there would be fewer people per bracket.
3. I believe default Halberd should not be legal because of the powerful hazards.
4. Yes, that's fine.
Who said get the amiibo of the character you're learning? I have Fox and Kirby amiibos. I rarely play as Kirby and never as Fox.
SoldnerKei
Member
iirc lvl 7 computers have a more "human" reaction to your attacks, not like lvl 9 that seems to read inputs(those damn perfect timed counters P
so it would help you for certain stuff like practicing low % strings/combos and suchif you're playing Marth, I suggest you turn tap jump on, mostly because it make your Out of Shield options easier to input, othersiwe you would have to press jump button>input attack instead of just doing an upsmash motion while your shield is up, tilts and aerials will come out with practice, and if you're still having trouble with tilts you can change your C-Stick to attack, now instead of smash attacks you'll do tilts with that stick, but then again anything that makes you feel comfortable while you play can work, just keep up that practice
also another suggestion, play fellow Marths over here(sometimes you need to see how other people play your character to improve, someone might come up with something you didn't know Marth could do), the one I can recall is Vena, I learned a couple of things playing against him, and you can also play me, Marth is my sub :'D I don't recall playing against other Marth in GAF, but seems like Nabster uses him too
regarding this
1.- Yeah, but just as TWILT posted, Equipment shouldn't be allowed, I am smoothlanding lover, but I have equal stats(Atk + 3, Def +1 Spd + 7) for every character on my Wii U to make it "fair", I know that won't be possible for the ranbat
2.- I would make it 2 stocks, 5min
3.- yup, counter picking would take way to much time to agree on a stage, it would be good thou
4.- yes, no problem with that
Might want to specify no Equipment on the custom moves part in case some people get confused (and it's going to have to rely on the honor system so people don't sneak a Critical Hit equipment or whatever). Otherwise, seems good; I'll answer the questions whenever the survey's up.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
iirc lvl 7 computers have a more "human" reaction to your attacks, not like lvl 9 that seems to read inputs(those damn perfect timed counters P
if you're playing Marth, I suggest you turn tap jump on, mostly because it make your Out of Shield options easier to input, othersiwe you would have to press jump button>input attack instead of just doing an upsmash motion while your shield is up, tilts and aerials will come out with practice, and if you're still having trouble with tilts you can change your C-Stick to attack, now instead of smash attacks you'll do tilts with that stick, but then again anything that makes you feel comfortable while you play can work, just keep up that practice
also another suggestion, play fellow Marths over here(sometimes you need to see how other people play your character to improve, someone might come up with something you didn't know Marth could do), the one I can recall is Vena, I learned a couple of things playing against him, and you can also play me, Marth is my sub :'D I don't recall playing against other Marth in GAF, but seems like Nabster uses him too
Oh my gosh, YES! I had a feeling the computer was reading my inputs because it reacts insanely fast to a lot of my attacks with counter spam. It also can tell when I'm going to attack in the air or feint to try and punish lag without fail every single time. The only way for me to win is to get them off stage and gimp or punish the recovery which is always high. I'll go back to practicing on 7 though; definitely could work on my combo game. I don't really know of anything besides:
1. grab -> side throw -> fair (or dash) -> dair
2. grab -> down throw -> ftilt (only works at low percentages)
And I'm not even sure if these are "true" combos; know of anything else? I might try to wade through smashboards and see if they have any ideas. I'll take your suggestion into account although I try to keep my distance with Marth to stop shielding so much. Nibel is an awesome Marth that I've played dittos with before. He actually taught me a lot with his relentless off stage pressure; would love to train with him some more.
Nobody in particular. I just assumed that the amiibo of the character you main would be a good challenge.
Cyberman65
Member
Q1: I'm indifferent on them. I'd say give it a shot and see what people say.
Q2: I'd rather prefer 2 stock, 6 minutes. But FT5s are good. 3 stocks, 8 minutes take too long.
Q3: I'm not a fan of Halberd being legal, probably Skyloft as well.
Q4: Yeah, that's good.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Karsticles, may I suggest using the Anther's Ladder system for ranbats? It's easy to make a profile, we can all add each other as friends to find each other for matches, and it would help clear a bit of the match banter that goes on in this thread. Your thoughts?
Shamrock7r
Member
The one problem with allowing customs online is for certain equip enhancements, it would be impossible to know if the other guy has something equipped.
On another note, what about the idea of having a tournament in between ranbat seasons, and having the ranbat serve as a way to seed the bracket?
On another note, what about the idea of having a tournament in between ranbat seasons, and having the ranbat serve as a way to seed the bracket?
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I believe the /r/smashbros community dealt with this in their tournament series through banning people who were caught with equips, and when the message was clear they worked on the honor system. I don't know how well that can apply here, but given I don't think we'd be competing for prizes of monetary value I doubt that people would go to such lengths to hide equip usage without being caught early on.
I actually like the idea of using ranbat data to seed future GAF tourneys, though I'd wait for the next season to finish before we implement that.
Shamrock7r
Member
I don't know... There are patriots fans on here ...
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
The R button on my Gamecube controller occasionally takes more pressure to push down. If you try to lightly push it down, sometimes it'll stick without going all the way down. I've now had this on TWO Smash Bros. controllers. I don't know how to fix it, or what it even is. It only happens with the new Smash Bros controllers, not old Gamecube controllers. Went back to check on it and the R button is now flat-out broken. Controller isn't even a month old, is an official controller. Any way I could get a refund or fix it, because this is serious bullshit.
This sounds like a good way to implement customs without worrying about cheating. Take away any opportunity to do so by not allowing personal 3ds or custom builds.
Honor? If by honor you mean: "I won every match up, you don't have any proof otherwise." Then, yes, I am filled with honor.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
1. Customs mean learning new matchups and I can actually use a better Dorf and use the godly Dash Slash on Bowser. NO EQUIPMENT.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
-------------------
Only honor system I use in Smash is that unless I am on last stock if you screw up and SD unintentionally then I will kill my character to even out the match. Otherwise tough luck Chuck.