Shamrock7r
Member
Sure
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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Someone edited the spread and claim that Adder won.
Karsticles
Member
Room is up. I am ready to feel bad about myself again.
It happens to the best of us lol
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Last few rounds then I'm done for night!
Damn man, I have never seen you so salty.
Jigglypuff has NEVER been about having more priority than your opponent. Otherwise Jiggs would be irrelevant in the Melee meta thanks to all the Marth players. Jiggs uses her mobility to bait attacks, move in, and then punish. You are misunderstanding the character. A few times you did this, but you were also often happy to charge in and get booted.
Dorf's side B has a lot of windup. It only works as a punishment move reliably. Every time you went to land with Jiggs, I hit you with it because landing is not safe. You should have baited the side B by pretending to land, floating away, and then hitting me during the move's massive recovery.
I totally agree that the up B hits were hilariously unexpected. That said, there is a dark cloud around his fists that tells you where the hitbox is, and Dorf isn't the only character that can hit from below the stage.
Dorf down B makes him into a viable character. It destroys zoning so he can get in. The default down B can KO at reasonable %, though, and the custom can't. It is the same tradeoff Bowser gets from Dash Klaw. Mobility and flexibility for giving up a situational kill move.
Man, if you think Dorf's Dair is bonkers, play Direct_Quote's Lucina. I actually changed Dorf's moveset just to counter it. I was getting spiked all day long. Yeah, it sucks to get spiked, but that is Dorf. He is the ultimate early killer. Bowser sucks off the ledge, it is part of his balance. Now, if you want, you could use Bowser's recovery customs to be safe from spikes. But I doubt you want to do that, because Fortress is so good. Then again, you don't like Fortressing much, so maybe you would like it.
Dash Slam is mega ass. So is Bowser's fireball. Sonic can counter it easy with homing dash attack. You got hit out of Dash Slash because your spacing was poor. Plus you were spamming it, so it became predictable. I understand spamming a new move to figure it out, but don't blame the move for that.
This is day 3 of learning Dorf, so I am still learning a lot. I read a lot of guides and watched videos last night. I actually think Bowser still wins the matchup, even with Dorf customs. Shield punishing is really good. I think you just get too offensive for your own good. Also, Dair is great, but if it can be punished by a move that will kill you, I recommend against it. You lost a few stocks that way.
I must say, your post, and all its salt, makes me feel pretty good.
Jiggs' pound generally clashes or wins against most attacks in this game though. It's an exception when it loses to an attack. I definitely play more in a zoning style when possible, but it works better against less... explosive characters.
If I had to come up with a list of Gdorf kill moves, his default down-b would be nearly at the end of the list. I mean, his dash attack probably kills earlier. The trade-off there is far less painful than Bowser's.
Like I said, I was interested in Dash Slash as a recovery move, but with backwards momentum it doesn't work. I'm unimpressed as an offensive move, even if I was using it well it hurts too much to lose the klaw throw.
Fortress is good, but if I judge the direction and side-b instead it's more damage. Against a good player, an air followup from fortress is unlikely, and I can challenge the landing off the klaw. If I'm going to reset the neutral I'd rather take 14-18% for my effort. It just feels a little lame to punish with an attack that does 9% sometimes... It's still mostly indespensible, but maybe you're right, I could maybe switch out for that custom up-b for matches against Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.
Ha I'm not really all that salty, I just like to vent a bit after matches cause there are so many small things in this game that still bewilder me. It's mostly the spikes that annoy me, cause they turn an even match into a clear win. It strikes that "that's bullshit" nerve in me somewhere. They were GGs though.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
I edited it. Thanks for giving me the power of editing!
Alright man thanks for the games and for editing the thing nice matches. Hope you start challenging GAF in casual matches more often! I'm pretty tired as well, playing very sloppy so I think I'll call it a night as well.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Shamrock7r
Member
Ggs kar. Gunna take a break and watch the spurs
Karsticles
Member
Anyone want to play now that Shamrock thoroughly slaughtered me? Room is up.
Ganon down B kills when spiking pretty well.
You don't have to wait for a shield to drop for Fortress, though. That is why it is so much better. And it does 13% iirc.
Ganon down B kills when spiking pretty well.
GGs. Sorry that I was so bad you had to go random to stay entertained.
direct_quote
Member
I'd be up for some games, but I see you already are playing with someone.
Karsticles
Member
Let's play. They don't want customs on, so I am not interested in.
direct_quote
Member
Ok sounds good. Who doesn't want customs...
Shamrock7r
Member
Not at all. I just went through my round of characters I usually play as and decided to try a few others. I actually used to play as Jiggly somewhat regularly in Brawl. Your Gannondorf will be beast once you are naturally fluid with him like you are with Bowser
AnkiRendan
Member
Anyone want to play? I want to test out my connection. For some reason For Glory isn't matching me up with anyone after 3 attempts so I want to see how this goes. :s
Edit: Never mind.
Edit: Never mind.
Karsticles
Member
1 sec
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Has anyone seen this read on /r/smashbros?
I've felt this myself. Someone who's even slightly better than me can camp, wait for my approach and do everything to bait something out in order to punish. There's no doubt that offensive play is viable and valid, but when defensive play like this is equally viable and, in a lot of cases, leads to a stalemate where both sides try to bait each other out until either one side gives in or one side's bait attempts are neutralized and defeated by the other's, it's clear that there's a fundamental issue with the the amount of tools the game gives to the player.
I'd like to have someone challenge this idea, that bait-and-punish tactics and what can be classified as "camping" are superior to actual engagement between both sides.
I personally don't think this can be challenged, however. Regardless of the moveset, Sm4sh's meta is currently biased towards punishment of players' mistakes and that's showcased in how characters' movesets are utilized. The currently accepted top characters are characters like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina because they have many attacks that can be used to effectively punish, force engagement from the other player, and mostly do not have exploitable windows of punishment when used in an intelligent manner. While I certainly believe every other character also has these qualities, they have them in lesser amounts than the above four. Sometimes they are slightly less, and sometimes the difference is large, but there is a difference.
Don't interpret this to mean that I believe using the above four characters will give you an inherently easier time, but that they grant more usable options in more contexts than others. Whether the player understands that and can still determine the best option for the proper context however is a different matter entirely.
Thus, these are my current thoughts as I can form them. If nobody wants to discuss this, then I am fine with that. However, seeing as this is technically the Official Topic for the game, I think it's only fair that we discuss playing the game, regardless of how much we dip into its meta.
I've felt this myself. Someone who's even slightly better than me can camp, wait for my approach and do everything to bait something out in order to punish. There's no doubt that offensive play is viable and valid, but when defensive play like this is equally viable and, in a lot of cases, leads to a stalemate where both sides try to bait each other out until either one side gives in or one side's bait attempts are neutralized and defeated by the other's, it's clear that there's a fundamental issue with the the amount of tools the game gives to the player.
I'd like to have someone challenge this idea, that bait-and-punish tactics and what can be classified as "camping" are superior to actual engagement between both sides.
I personally don't think this can be challenged, however. Regardless of the moveset, Sm4sh's meta is currently biased towards punishment of players' mistakes and that's showcased in how characters' movesets are utilized. The currently accepted top characters are characters like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina because they have many attacks that can be used to effectively punish, force engagement from the other player, and mostly do not have exploitable windows of punishment when used in an intelligent manner. While I certainly believe every other character also has these qualities, they have them in lesser amounts than the above four. Sometimes they are slightly less, and sometimes the difference is large, but there is a difference.
Don't interpret this to mean that I believe using the above four characters will give you an inherently easier time, but that they grant more usable options in more contexts than others. Whether the player understands that and can still determine the best option for the proper context however is a different matter entirely.
Thus, these are my current thoughts as I can form them. If nobody wants to discuss this, then I am fine with that. However, seeing as this is technically the Official Topic for the game, I think it's only fair that we discuss playing the game, regardless of how much we dip into its meta.
direct_quote
Member
Translation: Buff Falco
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Translation: Buff Falco
fuck yes
I-I mean, I'd appreciate the extra options granted to the player if Falco could shorten his side-B and cancel landing lag from aerial lasers again, y-you know? Just the little things...
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
It probably definitely rewards passive play. Just stand still as Shulk and occasionally do a neutral air or something and even a good player will walk into your moves repeatedly. That there's such a huge delay between being able to shield after running, but jumping or rolling are instant really encourages the run forward dash back gameplay, or run forward and try to get a mixup off of sporadic short hops. It's why the undisputed top tiers are characters who can create safe approaches, or are Rosalina. And yeah, Rosalina is basically Camping: The Character. It's important to distinguish between zoning and camping. Guile is a zoning character. He has the tools to keep you out, but he needs to be constantly doing something. He needs to be constantly charging his specials and reacting. And unlike Smash Bros, where a blocked jump-in is just a free grab for the defender, a Guile who lets himself get jumped in on is in huge trouble. In Smash Bros., you simply wait and then punish. There's nothing you have to do other than wait.
The bigger issue is that it's a lot harder to adapt in Smash Bros than in other games. You can't just figure out "This move beats that move." There's so much going on and the movement is so slippery that you can't just slowly make your way in, bait a grab, get a knockdown and you're in. You can't get in and stay in with Smash Bros, and that's part of what makes camping so difficult to deal with. You can't make reads and just throw them over and over again, you have to put yourself at risk while they do nothing. Luigi is one of the only characters who can get in and stay in, due to his ridiculous grab and stupidly fast recovery on aerials.
Also buff Falco. And Greninja.
The bigger issue is that it's a lot harder to adapt in Smash Bros than in other games. You can't just figure out "This move beats that move." There's so much going on and the movement is so slippery that you can't just slowly make your way in, bait a grab, get a knockdown and you're in. You can't get in and stay in with Smash Bros, and that's part of what makes camping so difficult to deal with. You can't make reads and just throw them over and over again, you have to put yourself at risk while they do nothing. Luigi is one of the only characters who can get in and stay in, due to his ridiculous grab and stupidly fast recovery on aerials.
Also buff Falco. And Greninja.
Karsticles
Member
Oh no, I am completely in agreement. It has been like this since release day. I first realized it when I had someone cornered with Bowser, and I realized that I just had an endless series of guesses to get right to hit. This game is extremely poorly made, and I would have said that at any time.
Scrubby camping behind a shield and rolling around spamming projectiles is the superior strategy in this game. That is why Diddy is top tier.
Spot dodges are the worst just because it means any offensive is a 50/50. Either you get spot dodged and get hit (lol), or you spot dodge the spot dodge and get a hit. I know this game is big right now, but without major changes it will falter. I am hoping we get a major gameplay overhaul with Mewtwo, because honestly, this game is pretty shitty right now.
OFFENSE SHOULD BE A GOOD THING.
Whoever establishes an offensive advantage should get to keep it. Good fighting games all work this way. Bad ones, like Smash 4 and Street Fighter, don't.
Karsticles
Member
If anyone wants me to go into detail on a situation to demonstrate why this is fundamentally bad, let me know and I will.
Karsticles
Member
For example, I just beat DQ in a match by doing nothing but standing still. Whenever he approached, I either shielded and grabbed or spot dodged and punished. I shouldn't be able to do that, it is stupid. Of course, I wonder if DQ realizes that's how he plays every match, and that it is incredibly boring.
Shit game is shit.
direct_quote
Member
SSF4 was pretty defensive, and then people found unblockables and established tech and probably by the end of SSF4 the game would have been more offensive (despite the defensive options). But then AE came and said fuck your defense, here's Yun with a 5 frame throw invincible command grab. And save spammable dive kicks bitches.
Shamrock7r
Member
Sm4sh can be defensive, but that post was exaggerating. If anyone is taking their findings from For Glory mode, chances are they aren't good enough at the game to really make conclusions to the meta game (based on their experience). There are certain characters that are more prone to the "camping" style, but overall, most of my matches take about 4-5 minutes on 3 stock.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Yun is ridiculous. But my issue with Street Fighter 4 is that there is now so much tech that it relies just as much on knowing knockdown setups and option selects as it does footsies. Which someone will probably tell me was already prevalent in Street Fighter II, but it's still really tedious.
I'd argue that the game will probably devolve into more defensive play (even Brawl was fairly offensive early on its life), and I expect to see more Olimars, Sonics and Rosalinas as the game's meta evolves. (And Villager if customs are on, I think he'll be more common with them on).
But I do agree that just basing it off of For Glory rules/stages is bleh, and the findings don't really tell us anything new. Shields/air dodging are too strong, pretty linear approaches for most characters, etc.
It's a defensive game but I still enjoy it. I do wish shield regeneration was slower, and that air dodging was nerfed slightly more (I'm not opposed to no free fall or multiple air dodges, but I think it should be laggier if you commit to it)
RomanceDawn
Member
I played a game where one guy was so good compared to me he did just sit there and wait for me to do anything and then punish me. I saw through it right away but with my aggressive nature I couldn't help but try to rush him down for it. The match came close by the end but I could tell all the while he was playing around more than anything.
I still equate that to my own problems while playing and don't see that extreme side of it often.
Karsticles what do you suggest change about the game to make it less defensive? I find Smash Wii U and 3DS to be a blast, but then again I stopped playing other fighters after Soul Caliber 2. So maybe I don't know better.
I still equate that to my own problems while playing and don't see that extreme side of it often.
Karsticles what do you suggest change about the game to make it less defensive? I find Smash Wii U and 3DS to be a blast, but then again I stopped playing other fighters after Soul Caliber 2. So maybe I don't know better.
Karsticles
Member
Shamrock, all of your characters are super defensive in play. -_-
SF will always be defensive because of a lack of frame advantage moves and DPs all over the place.
More shield stun, no canceling shield stun into evasion moves.
Less shield regeneration.
Spot dodges and rolls have more recovery.
That's all it really needs. Maaaaybe less landing lag on aerials, but that is a huge change.
It's about the neutral. Unblockables don't make this shit better.
SF will always be defensive because of a lack of frame advantage moves and DPs all over the place.
I think it is probably easy to fix:
More shield stun, no canceling shield stun into evasion moves.
Less shield regeneration.
Spot dodges and rolls have more recovery.
That's all it really needs. Maaaaybe less landing lag on aerials, but that is a huge change.
direct_quote
Member
Well when I play people with slow punishable normals.. you can't just throw attacks out.For example, I just beat DQ in a match by doing nothing but standing still. Whenever he approached, I either shielded and grabbed or spot dodged and punished. I shouldn't be able to do that, it is stupid. Of course, I wonder if DQ realizes that's how he plays every match, and that it is incredibly boring.
Shit game is shit.
Who do you use?
direct_quote
Member
Robin and Palutena. Lucina too, but she doesn't have much lag, but she's basically a worse Marth for he range. I should say Robin's tilts are fast but have no range.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
If I recall correctly, DQ plays Palutena, Robin, and shitty female Marth. I may have forgotten someone, so pardon me.
Karsticles
Member
I'm not blaming you. You are playing to win, and slow, boring camp play is the best way to play this game. Unless you are Diddy, because bananas beat shields.
You haven't used Palutena against me in weeks.
Edit, rofl, every time that recovery move kills I am surprised.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I think forward and neutral airs being so unsafe is a big part of the problem. Why even bother jumping in unless you're Sheik, Luigi, Sonic, or Diddy Kong?
Karsticles
Member
More shield stun would fix that.
Shamrock7r
Member
Kars I think you are just frustrated. Plenty of the matchups don't revolve around campy play. Smash4 does place a greater emphasis on the mid range game, but often times I think people confuse proper spacing with"camping".
Lucina is harder to approach with since she has slightly more lag on her aerials compared to Marth....which are already pretty unsafe unless spaced properly.
Robin and Palutena have good grab games (and you can catch people off guard with a B-reversed Nosferatu), you kinda just have to bait people into them with their projectiles.
Robin's nair is also pretty decent for approaching too.
It is rough for those two since those two have very slow ground speed though. Customs help a bit, moreso for Palutena.
Also Shamrock uses Mii Brawler too and Brawler is definitely not campy, lol. Ness can go either way depending on the matchup. Pac is super campy obviously.
I would agree that there's a higher emphasis on defensive play, and I'm excited to see what'll happen with customs, since although there's a lot of great defensive options, there's quite a few interesting offensive options.
direct_quote
Member
Palutena has a good grab game, but the problem is that feels like her main go to option. That and fish for jabs (her f-air is good too but it whifs completely on small characters). Robin has a terrible grab range so it's harder for her to get grabs, though I'm used to dash grab punishes with Palutena so I've been like 70 percent successful. Robin also has terrible recovery on whiffed grabs too.
Karsticles
Member
I know I play Bowser and Dorf here, but in most games, I play heavy zoners. Dormammu is my favorite character of all time. I am not down on spacing, I live on spacing. I know the difference.
You are a great player, and by no means am I disparaging you. I just mean that you play characters, and have a playstyle, that benefits from this kind of stuff. All of your characters are spacing based, and are very defensive.
I am not frustrated, I am in a good mood. The only thing that irritates me right now is how small Dorf's grab range is. Seriously, wtf.
You don't have to take my word on this stuff. Just wait a year and see where the game is competitively.
Like I said, this has been my opinion since day 1 of the 3DS release.
Robin has roll cancelled grabs to increase her range. It does suck though, since against campy characters, Robin does have to condition the opponent by mixing it up with Levin Sword fairs/grabs/Arcthunder for lockdown/Nosferatu. I think Distant Nosferatu has some interesting uses, Speed Thunder/Fire Wall are interesting options against faster opponents, and I think Thunder+ could be useful in gaining a strong KO option + getting the tome out fast to use to glide toss with and approach with. I haven't used Robin in awhile but due to the slower speed you do kinda have to play campy and bait people out, yeah. Throw in more projectiles, pivot tilts, and such I guess?
And yeah, I do think Palutena without customs does have to rely more on grabs + jab and the use of Auto Reticle to condition the opponent. She's a completely different character with Superspeed + Lightweight (and Jump Glide if you prefer it over Warp).
50% win rate on For Glory is not good.
Karsticles
Member
That shouldn't invalidate the argument.
I have an 80% win rate over 500 matches. Happy?
I wish I could just disable Palutena's shitty tilts.
Shamrock7r
Member
Well, first we have to be on the same page of certain terminology.
-spacing
-camping
-defensive play
-offensive play
etc. because I don't know if we are defining these things the same. For shits n giggles, I watched my last replay that I recorded. I would say around 80% of the time I was on the approach. I unfortunately haven't kept any videos of matches we have had on Wii U, but I dug this up on youtube, and although it's old, I don't see anything overly defensive about this match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNVBgZJuU
Do you consider that as heavy defensive play on my part? Because although I think I am better since that recording, I don't believe my aggressiveness has changed much from that.
What do we define as offensive play? Does that only include up close jabbing distance contact? I don't believe so. For most matchups, I think Smash4 has a solid mix of offense/defense. I also think there are a lot more characters that take advantage of that close/mid range level of play. The offensive speed is nowhere near Melee or Project M, but you can argue that scale is overly tipped in an offensive direction, and not necessarily balanced. That doesn't make it wrong, just different. Obviously there are some characters that lend themselves to the camping style, but I don't think that is indicative of the game as a whole.
direct_quote
Member
I mean I'm perfectly fine playing campy with Robin, but it seems to annoy people a lot. Also I feel with Palutena even with customs her damage output is pretty low. It's why I like playing Robin now because I feel I can rack on some damage or something. I guess Megaman probably feels the same amount of pain as well.
Yah even down tilt for how safe it isn't great..
I thought you played Ganondorf.
Anyway, Smash 4 has heavy defensive elements but that reddit post was about how one day on For Glory with a campy Link proved that Smash 4 always favored the defensive game.
But he only won 50% of his matches. With Link, which is a campy character. If he did that with an aggressive character like Falcon, maybe we can talk about the results a bit more.
But it's Link. There's some confirmation bias there. He played a campy character, he got campy results.
And he still lost 50% of the time with his supposedly superior strategy.