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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog

50% win rate on For Glory is not good.

I didn't say that his experiment was actually any good, but I was talking about a bit of the message behind his thought process for the experiment.

The hypothesis might have been, "How does a campy playstyle heavily reliant on bait-and-punish tactics and picking off opponents from a distance perform in an environment of 2-stock 5-minute matches played on flat stages?" I think that such a hypothesis, altered to better gain results from the actual competitive meta, would be worth testing. Do you think the same?

Now, let's also keep in mind I haven't taken custom moves into consideration because there just isn't enough data for me to make any kind of conclusion. That is to say, I'd need more than a few locals here and there to run customs before I can begin to form judgments on how they'll affect the meta and whether defensive play is continually shown bias.
 

mstevens

Member
I kinda want to get into Smash, but I'm pretty awful at fighters in general and I'm not sure where to start.

Pretend I'm a blank slate... What would be a good way to learn the basics / fundamentals without picking up really bad habits. One vs one computer with no items? Focus on what type of skills, specifically? I've always just played it as a party game, so I'm just running around hitting things and picking up items with no real rhyme or reason.

I don't even know what character to pick. I like playing as Toon Link, but I hear he's not very good.
 

FSLink

Banned
I mean I'm perfectly fine playing campy with Robin, but it seems to annoy people a lot. Also I feel with Palutena even with customs her damage output is pretty low. It's why I like playing Robin now because I feel I can rack on some damage or something. I guess Megaman probably feels the same amount of pain as well.


Yah even down tilt for how safe it isn't great..

Don't worry about how it annoys people, and yeah it's just how their character designs are.

MegaMan is more about using nairs/ftilts/jabs/Metal Blades and stuff to bait people into his hard hitting but slow smash attacks, or into his grabs which lead to a great grab followup game.
 
Well, first we have to be on the same page of certain terminology.

-spacing
-camping
-defensive play
-offensive play

etc. because I don't know if we are defining these things the same. For shits n giggles, I watched my last replay that I recorded. I would say around 80% of the time I was on the approach. I unfortunately haven't kept any videos of matches we have had on Wii U, but I dug this up on youtube, and although it's old, I don't see anything overly defensive about this match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNVBgZJuU
Do you consider that as heavy defensive play on my part? Because although I think I am better since that recording, I don't believe my aggressiveness has changed much from that.
What do we define as offensive play? Does that only include up close jabbing distance contact? I don't believe so. For most matchups, I think Smash4 has a solid mix of offense/defense. I also think there are a lot more characters that take advantage of that close/mid range level of play. The offensive speed is nowhere near Melee or Project M, but you can argue that scale is overly tipped in an offensive direction, and not necessarily balanced. That doesn't make it wrong, just different. Obviously there are some characters that lend themselves to the camping style, but I don't think that is indicative of the game as a whole.
At the beginning, yes, you were very defensive. The rest is just kind of...taking turns juggling each other in sloppy play.

I will define offensive and defensive:

Offensive: attacking the opponent in the neutral.

Defensive: waiting to attempt to counter an opponent's attack in the neutral.

Spacing: using attacks in such a way that their hitboxes barely touch the opposing hurtbox, maximizing safety.

Camping: consistently engaging in nothing more than defensive play (maybe - I am less confident in this definition, because I don't really use this term).

I think that a good fighting game rewards offensive play more than defensive play. Smash rewards defensive play too much.
 
I think that a good fighting game rewards offensive play more than defensive play. Smash rewards defensive play too much.

At the very least, it's Brawl and Sm4sh that reward defensive play more than offensive play to varying levels. Melee and 64, even at a casual level, favor offensive play clearly due to the mechanics at play regarding hitstun, shieldstun, and in 64's case the lack of certain mechanics reducing defensive options.

I kinda want to get into Smash, but I'm pretty awful at fighters in general and I'm not sure where to start.

Pretend I'm a blank slate... What would be a good way to learn the basics / fundamentals without picking up really bad habits. One vs one computer with no items? Focus on what type of skills, specifically? I've always just played it as a party game, so I'm just running around hitting things and picking up items with no real rhyme or reason.

I don't even know what character to pick. I like playing as Toon Link, but I hear he's not very good.

Just play the game however you feel like playing it, because above all else you need to know what your buttons do, right? Each button performs an action, and until you can press a button without having to think about what it does you still need to just play. Basically, learn the basic controls inside and out.

To understand the rules of Smash, watch the game's how to play video and then play the game. As you play, things will begin to connect and you should begin to understand. However, don't think this means you'll get it quick. It's understandable if it takes you more than a day, as something I've learned is that Smash is actually not an easy game to really get into. You might understand things at a very basic, visual level. You must play to understand concepts like controlling space and battling the mental game as well.

This takes more than watching a video on the basics. It'll take fighting computers, and then fighting human players to really understand what it means to control your space. That's what Smash is at its most fundamental level, controlling the space around you and your opponent(s).

Regarding your character of choice, don't give a shit about what other people say about a character. At the beginner level, every character is equal because the player does not understand the character's defining traits and how to set them apart yet. Basically, pick whoever you want and you'll find out who you like playing as soon enough, and stick to them. :)
 
Going from Dorf to ZSS = zero character control.

At the very least, it's Brawl and Sm4sh that reward defensive play more than offensive play to varying levels. Melee and 64, even at a casual level, favor offensive play clearly due to the mechanics at play regarding hitstun, shieldstun, and in 64's case the lack of certain mechanics reducing defensive options.
Oh, no doubt.
 
At the beginning, yes, you were very defensive. The rest is just kind of...taking turns juggling each other in sloppy play.

I will define offensive and defensive:

Offensive: attacking the opponent in the neutral.

Defensive: waiting to attempt to counter an opponent's attack in the neutral.

Spacing: using attacks in such a way that their hitboxes barely touch the opposing hurtbox, maximizing safety.

Camping: consistently engaging in nothing more than defensive play (maybe - I am less confident in this definition, because I don't really use this term).

I think that a good fighting game rewards offensive play more than defensive play. Smash rewards defensive play too much.

See and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I see nothing overly defensive about the play in that match. We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes defensive play. Obviously nobody is a fan of camping, but it seems your preference is less to very little spacing meta as well. If that's the case, then yea I can see where you are coming from because Smash 4 puts a bigger emphasis on the mid range spacing game for a lot of characters.
 
See and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I see nothing overly defensive about the play in that match. We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes defensive play. Obviously nobody is a fan of camping, but it seems your preference is less to very little spacing meta as well. If that's the case, then yea I can see where you are coming from because Smash 4 puts a bigger emphasis on the mid range spacing game for a lot of characters.
Come on man, I love spacing.

If you look at the start of that match, you are continually running away trying to punish the lag on my attacks. That is directly my definition of defensive play.

Now, in general, I do not find you to be a defensive player. You are pretty well balanced in how you approach the game. Like I said, I have no beef with you. Or with anyone else! Except Sakurai..
 
I find it funny that I play more campy people in Sm4sh when I play Yun in USF4, and for the most part play rush down characters... Aesthetics is a huge factor in character choice for me though, with fun enough game play so I stay..

edit; LOL i keep forgetting i Have a dive kick with Sheik
 
See and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I see nothing overly defensive about the play in that match. We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes defensive play. Obviously nobody is a fan of camping, but it seems your preference is less to very little spacing meta as well. If that's the case, then yea I can see where you are coming from because Smash 4 puts a bigger emphasis on the mid range spacing game for a lot of characters.

Regarding your comments on spacing, you mention that Sm4sh favors mid range spacing above all else. If I recall correctly, at one point when we played together, as you rekt me with Pac Man and I used Meta Knight you commented on my spacing being pretty good or something to that effect. Meta Knight is most effective at what I define as mid-range; close enough to hit your opponent without being too close to get punished by a shield-to-standing-grab, whereas close-range is what I define as a distance where you can attack your opponent and your opponent can attack you with attacks that do not have range typical of, say Shulk's fsmash when the beam is out. Rather, jab-range attacks will suffice without requiring movement from the opponent.

Now that I've defined them, I ask whether you think the way I play Meta Knight (at least when I'm not hopelessly rushing without reason) is what's asked of players in the game more than anything. You think it's more important to focus on a character's ability to keep the opponent in the "in-between" of close and far, correct? Would you like to elaborate?
 

mstevens

Member
At the very least, it's Brawl and Sm4sh that reward defensive play more than offensive play to varying levels. Melee and 64, even at a casual level, favor offensive play clearly due to the mechanics at play regarding hitstun, shieldstun, and in 64's case the lack of certain mechanics reducing defensive options.



Just play the game however you feel like playing it, because above all else you need to know what your buttons do, right? Each button performs an action, and until you can press a button without having to think about what it does you still need to just play. Basically, learn the basic controls inside and out.

To understand the rules of Smash, watch the game's how to play video and then play the game. As you play, things will begin to connect and you should begin to understand. However, don't think this means you'll get it quick. It's understandable if it takes you more than a day, as something I've learned is that Smash is actually not an easy game to really get into. You might understand things at a very basic, visual level. You must play to understand concepts like controlling space and battling the mental game as well.

This takes more than watching a video on the basics. It'll take fighting computers, and then fighting human players to really understand what it means to control your space. That's what Smash is at its most fundamental level, controlling the space around you and your opponent(s).

Regarding your character of choice, don't give a shit about what other people say about a character. At the beginner level, every character is equal because the player does not understand the character's defining traits and how to set them apart yet. Basically, pick whoever you want and you'll find out who you like playing as soon enough, and stick to them. :)

Thanks for the response. I think I'm going to try to learn how to play Ness, even though his physical attacks have such a shorter range than Link (it feels weird so far).

I'm doing some one on one in the training room just using one type of attack at a time, to get used to it.

edit: Wow, the Xenoblade stage with the Gaur Night music is beautiful.
 
Ggs Karsticles, I hope you keep at sm4sh and find some character you like. I feel like I found someone I enjoy now, Robin, so sm4sh doesn't feel as exhausting/frustating even when I do lose. I guess Palutena can be ok with customs...

But in regards to a patch do people think they really will tweak the game that much? I know from the 3ds to sm4sh launch they nerfed players, but I doubt they'd all of a sudden give a bunch of buffs or make more moves safe on block. Guess we gotta wait for project sm4sh?

Sm4sh gave me Villager, so it can do no wrong.

VOOMERANG
Well Villager is certainly one of the more annoying characters in the game. But he is a creative addition so the'res that..
 
Ggs Karsticles, I hope you keep at sm4sh and find some character you like. I feel like I found someone I enjoy now, Robin, so sm4sh doesn't feel as exhausting/frustating even when I do lose. I guess Palutena can be ok with customs...

But in regards to a patch do people think they really will tweak the game that much? I know from the 3ds to sm4sh launch they nerfed players, but I doubt they'd all of a sudden give a bunch of buffs or make more moves safe on block. Guess we gotta wait for project sm4sh?


Well Villager is certainly one of the more annoying characters in the game. But he is a creative addition so the'res that..

Not that I'm expecting anything super major, but there should certainly be some tweaking done as based on Sakurai's opinion on character creation he is not about to just toss in Mewtwo and call it a day. There has to be balancing done, if only to make sure Mewtwo isn't blatantly better than the rest of the cast like Meta Knight in Brawl.
 
Ggs Karsticles, I hope you keep at sm4sh and find some character you like. I feel like I found someone I enjoy now, Robin, so sm4sh doesn't feel as exhausting/frustating even when I do lose. I guess Palutena can be ok with customs...

But in regards to a patch do people think they really will tweak the game that much? I know from the 3ds to sm4sh launch they nerfed players, but I doubt they'd all of a sudden give a bunch of buffs or make more moves safe on block. Guess we gotta wait for project sm4sh?


Well Villager is certainly one of the more annoying characters in the game. But he is a creative addition so the'res that..
Oh, I'm not quitting or anything. Mewtwo is still on the way. If there is a character I would love to play, it is him.

Re: major changes. Anything is possible. Presumably, Sakurai spent months testing vectoring, and then be got rid of it a month after release. At the very least, Sakurai has had months to see the meta develop, and he watched Apex. I expect significant balance changes.

In my very personal opinion, I think this game shipped unfinished. I think we will see the actual "final state" of the game when tournament mode and such are released.

I am glad you really like Robin. I hate not having a good answer to you idly charging your tomb. I wish its cancel options were a little more limited. Still, don't feel bad about camping with Robin. Play to win, always.

Edit: I almost forgot. Which Dorf side B move did you think was more effective? The grab, or the thrust attack?
 
Oh, I'm not quitting or anything. Mewtwo is still on the way. If there is a character I would love to play, it is him.

Re: major changes. Anything is possible. Presumably, Sakurai spent months testing vectoring, and then be got rid of it a month after release. At the very least, Sakurai has had months to see the meta develop, and he watched Apex. I expect significant balance changes.

In my very personal opinion, I think this game shipped unfinished. I think we will see the actual "final state" of the game when tournament mode and such are released.

I am glad you really like Robin. I hate not having a good answer to you idly charging your tomb. I wish its cancel options were a little more limited. Still, don't feel bad about camping with Robin. Play to win, always.

Edit: I almost forgot. Which Dorf side B move did you think was more effective? The grab, or the thrust attack?
I do think certain aspects of sm4sh were rushed to make the November deadline, especially single player mode where a lot of elements feel tacked on. I'm not so sure if they balance the game if Sakurai would make drastic changes like making more sheild stun for certain character's attacks, but you never know (and please make rolls more punishable, I feel if you don't have a good jab it's hard to punish some character's rolls).

I think the grab one is probably his best option, because like you said his grab range is awful so having that option seems good. You could always use that side falcon kick to close the distance, but I don't know how well better players would punish these attacks on block though. I feel like my reactions are mediocre and I get hit by too much stuff sometimes.
 

FSLink

Banned
Wait, did you actually read somewhere that he watched Apex? If he did I'd feel more confident about balance changes to come...



I'm getting on to play now, but I need a few minutes to set up some custom... setup

Cool. NNID is FSLink

I think the grab one is probably his best option, because like you said his grab range is awful so having that option seems good. You could always use that side falcon kick to close the distance, but I don't know how well better players would punish these attacks on block though. I feel like my reactions are mediocre and I get hit by too much stuff sometimes.
It depends. The dashing multhit sideB Flame Chain is great because it covers an area that Ganondorf has trouble punishing. I'd only go for the normal sideB against characters like Bowser with limited get up options, making it easy to go for resets. It's also mostly a preference, but I do feel that Flame Chain complements the custom upB Dark Fists and custom downB Wizard's Dropkick.
 

FSLink

Banned
Send friend request.

Added, make room please. :p

Yeah, I'm experimenting too. Man, that zig zag can does tons of damage on Bowser.

GOD HAMMER SPIN DASH IS STUPID

Send friend request.

Edit: going to experiment a little with some customs.

Edit 2: you sure you don't have equipment on? Dying at 106% to sonic's upsmash is unexpected...

I'm sure I don't have equipment on, yeah. It's because of rage and usmash doesn't usually land clean like that without customs.



Wow Dash Claw is scary to fight against as Ness.




GGs!
 

Cronox

Banned
Added, make room please. :p

Yeah, I'm experimenting too. Man, that zig zag can does tons of damage on Bowser.

GOD HAMMER SPIN DASH IS STUPID

I'm sure I don't have equipment on, yeah. It's because of rage and usmash doesn't usually land clean like that without customs.

Wow Dash Claw is scary to fight against as Ness.

GGs!

GGs.

Yeah it's kinda crazy how the can combos Bowser... Very promising for DHD's competitive future.

That Sonic custom is so unnecessary, as if the matchup wasn't heavily in his favor already they give him an attack that buries opponents. smh

Dash claw for all it's crossup potential still only does something like 8% and seems to have 0 priority. And sometimes because of momentum Bowser does it in place, even on the ground... who the hell programmed that?

Edit: These matches were discouraging, not because of anything you were doing in particular, but because all I can see are matchups that are already at a disadvantage getting even worse. I knew about the ones getting attention, like DK, Ganondorf, Palutena and Rosalina's, but I suppose it didn't quite hit me until we played and you kept switching to new characters with new customs. I mean, almost every character probably has a custom that makes them better. I didn't think Sonic, Ness, or Captain Falcon would, but they seem to. I haven't unlocked much besides Bowser... In a customs meta, I think Bowser is going to get left behind. I even voted for customs at Evo and all that (seems like a good idea on paper, why not right?), but if they really do become a standard I think I'll have to bow out of playing this game more than casually. I'm barely holding on to the idea of being competitive after getting a taste of top level play at a tournament this week, and that's without customs.

Either Mewtwo saves the game or I magically find a character I like playing with customs on... maybe DK.
 

FSLink

Banned
Well I do think with customs on, that Bowser is probably the worst off heavy. I think Ike, Ganondorf, and Charizard are great with customs on. DK is a monster as well, we had a customs tourney here in Hawaii and a DK got 3rd.
Bowser will always have a hard time since his mobility is garbage. I honestly feel rage is what makes him viable at the moment, he's always a threat if you can't seal the kill. I do think Dash Claw helps him gain some mixups with the new mobility he gets from it, but it doesn't really solve the issue of his character's bad matchups entirely. Ganondorf has a similar issue but with customs on, Wizard's Dropkick helps solve that issue.

And yeah I do think Sonic, Pikachu, and Villager will move up a tier with customs on. (so likely in the same tier as Diddy and Sheik)

I think customs should stay on honestly because it does make every character more interesting, yeah it makes some matchups much worse, but it also makes some better. I think it'll be interesting for people to show off new custom configurations, maybe a character who we thought had crap customs turns out to be good customs (like I tried to show off with Diddy's customs with you, I think battering banana is being slept on).


EDIT: oh yeah and the custom can for Duck Hunt, that huge % combo I can do with it works on all characters I believe...just not used to setting the opponent into it.

Also I'm not sure, but I think you can DI inward to avoid getting hit by all the hits of Sonic's usmash after being buried. Might not work with Bowser due to his huge body, but I've seen it miss before at least at lower percents.
 

Boney

Banned
Regarding the defensive style of play of smash bros, I definately agree that the defensive options in this game are too powerful, and the only way to get around them is to have characters that have 0 ending lag on their aerials like shiek and diddy among others.
But I do think that smart offensive play is rewarded very well, sadly not all characters have that option and that is the problem. Attacking an opponents shield with bowser is a very bad gamble most of the times because it's not a very safe option most of the times, sure you get klaw as a wait to bait heavy shielders but a good player will know it's coming and punish accordingly. The grab beats shield isn't necessarily true when shield has so many options to use, like jump cancelled moves, aerials and dodging. The offensive player basically has to read or guess which of the many defensive options are taken in order to punish accordingly.

The easiest solution is to give characters more shieldstun and less shield recovery, but I wonder if that's just gonna make the better characters even more powerful. Either way I'm very happy with the game and I'm really enjoying it on the competitive side.

GGs.

Yeah it's kinda crazy how the can combos Bowser... Very promising for DHD's competitive future.

That Sonic custom is so unnecessary, as if the matchup wasn't heavily in his favor already they give him an attack that buries opponents. smh

Dash claw for all it's crossup potential still only does something like 8% and seems to have 0 priority. And sometimes because of momentum Bowser does it in place, even on the ground... who the hell programmed that?

Edit: These matches were discouraging, not because of anything you were doing in particular, but because all I can see are matchups that are already at a disadvantage getting even worse. I knew about the ones getting attention, like DK, Ganondorf, Palutena and Rosalina's, but I suppose it didn't quite hit me until we played and you kept switching to new characters with new customs. I mean, almost every character probably has a custom that makes them better. I didn't think Sonic, Ness, or Captain Falcon would, but they seem to. I haven't unlocked much besides Bowser... In a customs meta, I think Bowser is going to get left behind. I even voted for customs at Evo and all that (seems like a good idea on paper, why not right?), but if they really do become a standard I think I'll have to bow out of playing this game more than casually. I'm barely holding on to the idea of being competitive after getting a taste of top level play at a tournament this week, and that's without customs.

Either Mewtwo saves the game or I magically find a character I like playing with customs on... maybe DK.
Hope you keep it up! Practice makes perfect
 

Tripon

Member
The Japanese players at APEX said that Sakurai and his staff was taking tourney info from the Tokyo competitive scene. That's why Greninja, Shiek, Rosalina, etc. received nerfs and Diddy was left alone. Japan didn't really play Diddy at the time.

Now that Rain is maiming Diddy, and the APEX results, it'll help with the eventual balance patch that is sure to come with Mewtwo and the other stuff.
 

vikki

Member
I kinda want to get into Smash, but I'm pretty awful at fighters in general and I'm not sure where to start.

Pretend I'm a blank slate... What would be a good way to learn the basics / fundamentals without picking up really bad habits. One vs one computer with no items? Focus on what type of skills, specifically? I've always just played it as a party game, so I'm just running around hitting things and picking up items with no real rhyme or reason.

I don't even know what character to pick. I like playing as Toon Link, but I hear he's not very good.

Play with friends if you can. Play as everyone, you'll learn who you like to play as. Definitely learn to beat the computer. Once you've put in the time playing with friends then you can start watching videos to improve your game. Playing with friends is best, back when Melee came out, me and my friends could sit for 2 hours messing around without realizing it. Nothing has changed to this point. We could still sit and play for hours just messing around. Competitive play take a lot of dedication, practice, research, practice, playing better players than yourself, trial and error, research and practice. Best way to get into the game is to learn and play with friends.
 

emb

Member
Glad to see I'm not the only one who stills thinks this game is a little lopsided towards defense. I was starting to think a lot of it was just me being bad/salty/over-reactionary.
 

Boney

Banned
So Pit's upperdash arm is an incredible tool against villager's Lloyd rocket. It'll deflect it and hit with the arm, deflect and hit with both (I think not too sure about this) or trade and end up in a winning position.

I believe I found my counter pick for villager :)

He was giving me a hard time with samus because he can stop in midair with this and dodge shots or even use the rocket to win all the horizontal space samus has with the shot. Good stuff I just found out.
 
Regarding your comments on spacing, you mention that Sm4sh favors mid range spacing above all else. If I recall correctly, at one point when we played together, as you rekt me with Pac Man and I used Meta Knight you commented on my spacing being pretty good or something to that effect. Meta Knight is most effective at what I define as mid-range; close enough to hit your opponent without being too close to get punished by a shield-to-standing-grab, whereas close-range is what I define as a distance where you can attack your opponent and your opponent can attack you with attacks that do not have range typical of, say Shulk's fsmash when the beam is out. Rather, jab-range attacks will suffice without requiring movement from the opponent.

Now that I've defined them, I ask whether you think the way I play Meta Knight (at least when I'm not hopelessly rushing without reason) is what's asked of players in the game more than anything. You think it's more important to focus on a character's ability to keep the opponent in the "in-between" of close and far, correct? Would you like to elaborate?

Apologies I went to bed last night before I could respond, but let me word this in a way that I hope makes sense.

With my limited time playing, I've currently concluded that the best way to win a match is to live by these words, "Set up the opponent to fail". I constantly do things, both aggressively and not so aggressively to put the opponent in a position to get hit. To give you an example, and I hope Karsticles doesn't mind, but I am going to use our last set as an example with his Ganondorf. He had a downb custom that shoots him across the screen, and a side b custom that doesn't grab, but is more of a sideways multi hit move.

I quickly learned that if I maintained a far distance from Karsticles, he would, more than half the time, jump in the air and use his down b to fly across the stage and attack me. All I had to do was block when the kick came, and I was able to punish. I consider this good defensive positioning, and knowing that Karsticles has conditioned himself to do this a lot, I could continuously take advantage.

Now, here is an example of what i consider good spacing. If I positioned Ness fairly close to Gannondorf, but out of range from his A attacks, I could bait him into throwing out his SideB custom. So what I would do is throw a PK Fire I know wouldn't hit him, or do a short hop fair to think he has an opening, and more often than not, he would rush in with that sideb. If I blocked it correctly, I could immediately punish. Again, I am throwing attacks at the guy fairly close to him, and somewhat approaching, but I am maintaining a distance to get him to make a mistake, knowing his nuances.

Now, as an example of offensive play being rewarded. I learned that if I get right up to Karsticles and attack him within his attack range, he was going to either use his downtilt, jab, or ftilt to attack me, so my strategy was to short hop fair into him, knowing he would probably block it, then try and confuse him on my landing spot so that he would pump out one of those moves in the wrong direction, if I got it right, I would follow up with a grab, or an aerial. If I got it wrong I would continue to short hop around him and repeat the process until the opening presented itself.

These are the things I think of at a rapid pace. There is very little down time in my playstyle. I consider myself to be very good at spacing out my attacks, but moreso I consider myself good at reading an opponent, and figuring out their bad habits. I think this sometimes frustrates opponents, and they start to say things like "playing defensively" or what have you because maybe they aren't fully comprehending the thought process I am going through in a given match, or fully understanding the things they are doing wrong that are leaving them open to an attack.

Again, I would ask you to watch this, admittedly very old (and I think we are both much better now) match between me and karsticles and determine if I was playing overwhelmingly defensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNVBgZJuU
Because if you do, we just aren't going to agree. I don't believe spacing a pk fire for half a second, or hitting 2 pkthunders from a distance for 5 seconds consitutes overwhelming defensive play. I think that is putting to good use some moves that can connect from a distance when the opportunity presents itself while knowing I am going to have to go in close to get the majority of my work done.

Does Smash4 award good defensive play? Absolutely. Does it reward good offensive play? Absolutely. For most characters it's a combination of both, for some it skews one way more than the other. Ultimately, it rewards good reads, awareness of what your opponent does, and thinking a few steps ahead. If you prefer the heavily offensive nature of a game like Melee, that's fine, but the notion that Smash4 only rewards camping and heavy defensive play is, in my opinion, silly and wrong. Or I dunno, maybe my definition of what constitutes offensive and defensive play is just different, I guess
 

Puruzi

Banned
As someone who likes Smash 4 the most out of all the Smash games, I agree that the game is skewered heavily in favor of defensive play. Someone playing offensively has to put in much much much more effort to win than someone playing defensively. It's annoying. Not enough to make me say the games isn't competitive or anything, but it's still annoying.

With that out of the way, does anyone wanna 1v1? ID is HarimeNui.
 
As someone who likes Smash 4 the most out of all the Smash games, I agree that the game is skewered heavily in favor of defensive play. Someone playing offensively has to put in much much much more effort to win than someone playing defensively. It's annoying. Not enough to make me say the games isn't competitive or anything, but it's still annoying.

With that out of the way, does anyone wanna 1v1? ID is HarimeNui.

sure
 
Glad to see I'm not the only one who stills thinks this game is a little lopsided towards defense. I was starting to think a lot of it was just me being bad/salty/over-reactionary.

No man I feel you. It feels like between players of relatively even skill, the camper will have the advantage. I'd like to see two things done:

- The ability to only air dodge once and added landing lag. Or have each successive air dodge give you more landing lag to discourage spam. Tired of not being able to punish in the air because my opponent wants to spam the air dodge. Yes, you could try to bait and then punish on the ground but there's not enough landing lag in my opinion.

- The ability to wavedash. There's not much in the way of mixing up your approach.
 

TWILT

Banned
While I did used to think Sm4sh was a tad too defensive as well, and I wouldn't mind some things being changed (a bit more shieldstun, rolls having more end lag, etc.), the more I played the game, while defensive play is still rewarded, I felt like smart offense can be just as well rewarded.

With Shulk, I used to mindlessly shorthop NAir all day and getting frustrated whenever I got so easily shield grabbed, but I learned to mix it up, go for pivot grabs with Monado Speed, FAir, properly space your aerials, etc. Pikachu's a very fun character for me because it's lot of fun causing a lot of pressure with Quick Attack and being offensive (though I do tend to fallback to Thunder Jolt keepaway when I need time to breathe.) That's just my 2 cents though.

As an aside, almost done unlocking every custom move (have 340 of them apparently) after playing Smash Run a lot lately. Will focus entirely on getting gud once I'm done. x_x
 
GGs Puruzi. You have a great handle on so many characters


While I did used to think Sm4sh was a tad too defensive as well, and I wouldn't mind some things being changed (a bit more shieldstun, rolls having more end lag, etc.), the more I played the game, while defensive play is still rewarded, I felt like smart offense can be just as well rewarded.

With Shulk, I used to mindlessly shorthop NAir all day and getting frustrated whenever I got so easily shield grabbed, but I learned to mix it up, go for pivot grabs with Monado Speed, FAir, properly space your aerials, etc. Pikachu's a very fun character for me because it's lot of fun causing a lot of pressure with Quick Attack and being offensive (though I do tend to fallback to Thunder Jolt keepaway when I need time to breathe.) That's just my 2 cents though.

As an aside, almost done unlocking every custom move (have 340 of them apparently) after playing Smash Run a lot lately. Will focus entirely on getting gud once I'm done. x_x

Agreed. I think what frustrates some players is that some matchups can be inherently defensive because of the character. Mega Man, Sonic, and to a lesser extent Rosalina and Link, for example, are characters that have to maintain a large amount of space to succeed. Because of these matchups, I think some players equate that to the game as a whole.
 

Puruzi

Banned
GGs Puruzi. You have a great handle on so many characters




Agreed. I think what frustrates some players is that some matchups can be inherently defensive because of the character. Mega Man, Sonic, and to a lesser extent Rosalina and Link, for example, are characters that have to maintain a large amount of space to succeed. Because of these matchups, I think some players equate that to the game as a whole.

GGs, Your Mii Fighters and Ness constantly put me through hell. Link's Jab into anything else is also difficult to deal with, lol
 
So much good stuff going on in this thread. I love these conversations.

I mean I'm perfectly fine playing campy with Robin, but it seems to annoy people a lot. Also I feel with Palutena even with customs her damage output is pretty low. It's why I like playing Robin now because I feel I can rack on some damage or something. I guess Megaman probably feels the same amount of pain as well.


Yah even down tilt for how safe it isn't great..
Plus, the reward for dtilt is super small if it does hit. Palutena can KO at 70% with her customs if you master Lightweight, though, and learn the (still intact) Super Speed glitch.

I thought you played Ganondorf.

Anyway, Smash 4 has heavy defensive elements but that reddit post was about how one day on For Glory with a campy Link proved that Smash 4 always favored the defensive game.

But he only won 50% of his matches. With Link, which is a campy character. If he did that with an aggressive character like Falcon, maybe we can talk about the results a bit more.

But it's Link. There's some confirmation bias there. He played a campy character, he got campy results.

And he still lost 50% of the time with his supposedly superior strategy.
Yeah, his experiment was dumb, his point was correct. Captain's post, quoted below, perfectly conveys my thoughts on this.

I just switched to Ganondorf. My 80% win rate over 500 matches is 99% Bowser, whom is arguably the most defensive character in the game. So I know something about defensive play and how powerful it is. ;-)

I didn't say that his experiment was actually any good, but I was talking about a bit of the message behind his thought process for the experiment.

The hypothesis might have been, "How does a campy playstyle heavily reliant on bait-and-punish tactics and picking off opponents from a distance perform in an environment of 2-stock 5-minute matches played on flat stages?" I think that such a hypothesis, altered to better gain results from the actual competitive meta, would be worth testing. Do you think the same?

Now, let's also keep in mind I haven't taken custom moves into consideration because there just isn't enough data for me to make any kind of conclusion. That is to say, I'd need more than a few locals here and there to run customs before I can begin to form judgments on how they'll affect the meta and whether defensive play is continually shown bias.
Even on moves that give you a "free in", you just lead to a 50/50 guessing game. Palutena's Jump Glide and Bowser's Dash Slash should both guarantee offensive follow-ups if they are blocked, because they have 0 landing lag and guarantee an aerial hit. But they don't.

Wait, did you actually read somewhere that he watched Apex? If he did I'd feel more confident about balance changes to come...



I'm getting on to play now, but I need a few minutes to set up some custom... setups.
I read that Sakurai was "impressed" by the turnout and sense of community at Apex. Not necessarily that he watched it, but he paid attention, at least.

I do think certain aspects of sm4sh were rushed to make the November deadline, especially single player mode where a lot of elements feel tacked on. I'm not so sure if they balance the game if Sakurai would make drastic changes like making more sheild stun for certain character's attacks, but you never know (and please make rolls more punishable, I feel if you don't have a good jab it's hard to punish some character's rolls).

I think the grab one is probably his best option, because like you said his grab range is awful so having that option seems good. You could always use that side falcon kick to close the distance, but I don't know how well better players would punish these attacks on block though. I feel like my reactions are mediocre and I get hit by too much stuff sometimes.
Two things need to be true in a good competitive fighting game, I feel:
1) Attacking should generally be superior to waiting for your opponent to attack.
2) In Smash, blocking and rolling should have frame disadvantage in relation to whatever it blocked. Always.

Cool. NNID is FSLink


It depends. The dashing multhit sideB Flame Chain is great because it covers an area that Ganondorf has trouble punishing. I'd only go for the normal sideB against characters like Bowser with limited get up options, making it easy to go for resets. It's also mostly a preference, but I do feel that Flame Chain complements the custom upB Dark Fists and custom downB Wizard's Dropkick.
Here is what I found, though: Flame Chain is fantastic for punishing, and it covers an area Flame Choke doesn't. Flame Chain is extremely good against aerial characters, and it beats goddamn everything. The priority is just massive. However, Flame Chain is bad against campy play. All Dorf has to open campers up is his normal grab, which is probably the worst grab in the entire game. So if someone chooses to sit, you have to take a big risk to get in there.

Flame Choke threatens camping because it has good range and decent priority. However, it is generally less useful, and doesn't lead to anything good if your opponent consistently techs it.

I am leaning slightly toward Flame Choke, but only because Dorf has no way to beat shields without it. His aerials are all unsafe, and Sakurai is so incompetent that Dorf's tilts, which are fast and high priority, can still be punished by some characters on shield at max range (this is the perfect example of how awful defensive play is in this game).

GGs.

Yeah it's kinda crazy how the can combos Bowser... Very promising for DHD's competitive future.

That Sonic custom is so unnecessary, as if the matchup wasn't heavily in his favor already they give him an attack that buries opponents. smh

Dash claw for all it's crossup potential still only does something like 8% and seems to have 0 priority. And sometimes because of momentum Bowser does it in place, even on the ground... who the hell programmed that?

Edit: These matches were discouraging, not because of anything you were doing in particular, but because all I can see are matchups that are already at a disadvantage getting even worse. I knew about the ones getting attention, like DK, Ganondorf, Palutena and Rosalina's, but I suppose it didn't quite hit me until we played and you kept switching to new characters with new customs. I mean, almost every character probably has a custom that makes them better. I didn't think Sonic, Ness, or Captain Falcon would, but they seem to. I haven't unlocked much besides Bowser... In a customs meta, I think Bowser is going to get left behind. I even voted for customs at Evo and all that (seems like a good idea on paper, why not right?), but if they really do become a standard I think I'll have to bow out of playing this game more than casually. I'm barely holding on to the idea of being competitive after getting a taste of top level play at a tournament this week, and that's without customs.

Either Mewtwo saves the game or I magically find a character I like playing with customs on... maybe DK.
You don't use Dash Slash on the ground unless it punishes a roll. It also clanks with projectiles, so it helps Bowser get through keepaway. The value of Dash Slash is that it has strong follow-ups, even on block. You can pivot your landing to get the huge Bowser pivot grab range, for example. On hit, you can combo into usmash, utilt, fair, and at low percentages, even Bowser Bomb for like a 40% combo at the start of the match. I think you are undervaluing Dash Slash's potential.

Regarding the defensive style of play of smash bros, I definately agree that the defensive options in this game are too powerful, and the only way to get around them is to have characters that have 0 ending lag on their aerials like shiek and diddy among others.
But I do think that smart offensive play is rewarded very well, sadly not all characters have that option and that is the problem. Attacking an opponents shield with bowser is a very bad gamble most of the times because it's not a very safe option most of the times, sure you get klaw as a wait to bait heavy shielders but a good player will know it's coming and punish accordingly. The grab beats shield isn't necessarily true when shield has so many options to use, like jump cancelled moves, aerials and dodging. The offensive player basically has to read or guess which of the many defensive options are taken in order to punish accordingly.

The easiest solution is to give characters more shieldstun and less shield recovery, but I wonder if that's just gonna make the better characters even more powerful. Either way I'm very happy with the game and I'm really enjoying it on the competitive side.


Hope you keep it up! Practice makes perfect
100% this. Great writeup on Bowser. Also, less landing lag would be hard on heavies, since they get danced around.

The Japanese players at APEX said that Sakurai and his staff was taking tourney info from the Tokyo competitive scene. That's why Greninja, Shiek, Rosalina, etc. received nerfs and Diddy was left alone. Japan didn't really play Diddy at the time.

Now that Rain is maiming Diddy, and the APEX results, it'll help with the eventual balance patch that is sure to come with Mewtwo and the other stuff.
Thanks for this.

Apologies I went to bed last night before I could respond, but let me word this in a way that I hope makes sense.

With my limited time playing, I've currently concluded that the best way to win a match is to live by these words, "Set up the opponent to fail". I constantly do things, both aggressively and not so aggressively to put the opponent in a position to get hit. To give you an example, and I hope Karsticles doesn't mind, but I am going to use our last set as an example with his Ganondorf. He had a downb custom that shoots him across the screen, and a side b custom that doesn't grab, but is more of a sideways multi hit move.

I quickly learned that if I maintained a far distance from Karsticles, he would, more than half the time, jump in the air and use his down b to fly across the stage and attack me. All I had to do was block when the kick came, and I was able to punish. I consider this good defensive positioning, and knowing that Karsticles has conditioned himself to do this a lot, I could continuously take advantage.

Now, here is an example of what i consider good spacing. If I positioned Ness fairly close to Gannondorf, but out of range from his A attacks, I could bait him into throwing out his SideB custom. So what I would do is throw a PK Fire I know wouldn't hit him, or do a short hop fair to think he has an opening, and more often than not, he would rush in with that sideb. If I blocked it correctly, I could immediately punish. Again, I am throwing attacks at the guy fairly close to him, and somewhat approaching, but I am maintaining a distance to get him to make a mistake, knowing his nuances.

Now, as an example of offensive play being rewarded. I learned that if I get right up to Karsticles and attack him within his attack range, he was going to either use his downtilt, jab, or ftilt to attack me, so my strategy was to short hop fair into him, knowing he would probably block it, then try and confuse him on my landing spot so that he would pump out one of those moves in the wrong direction, if I got it right, I would follow up with a grab, or an aerial. If I got it wrong I would continue to short hop around him and repeat the process until the opening presented itself.

These are the things I think of at a rapid pace. There is very little down time in my playstyle. I consider myself to be very good at spacing out my attacks, but moreso I consider myself good at reading an opponent, and figuring out their bad habits. I think this sometimes frustrates opponents, and they start to say things like "playing defensively" or what have you because maybe they aren't fully comprehending the thought process I am going through in a given match, or fully understanding the things they are doing wrong that are leaving them open to an attack.

Again, I would ask you to watch this, admittedly very old (and I think we are both much better now) match between me and karsticles and determine if I was playing overwhelmingly defensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNVBgZJuU
Because if you do, we just aren't going to agree. I don't believe spacing a pk fire for half a second, or hitting 2 pkthunders from a distance for 5 seconds consitutes overwhelming defensive play. I think that is putting to good use some moves that can connect from a distance when the opportunity presents itself while knowing I am going to have to go in close to get the majority of my work done.

Does Smash4 award good defensive play? Absolutely. Does it reward good offensive play? Absolutely. For most characters it's a combination of both, for some it skews one way more than the other. Ultimately, it rewards good reads, awareness of what your opponent does, and thinking a few steps ahead. If you prefer the heavily offensive nature of a game like Melee, that's fine, but the notion that Smash4 only rewards camping and heavy defensive play is, in my opinion, silly and wrong. Or I dunno, maybe my definition of what constitutes offensive and defensive play is just different, I guess
Shamrock, I generally agree with you. The problem is that you are coming at this as a Ness player. There are a handful of characters in this game with 100% safe offensive options. They can pressure consistently, and it is joyful for them to be on offense. The vast, vast majority of characters are not like that, though. I challenge you to play a character with no safe offensive options for two weeks, like Bowser (who might have the worst offensive options in the game). Then you might understand more of what I am talking about as a systemic issue, and you will understand how frustrating the game's mechanics are from my perspective.

I do not agree that this game rewards offensive play, though. It rewards baiting your opponent into making mistakes. When both players engage with this mindset, the game is extremely boring. I do unsafe things out of boredom. If I could be safe and offensive, I would, but for more characters, there is no such thing as safe AND offensive.

As someone who likes Smash 4 the most out of all the Smash games, I agree that the game is skewered heavily in favor of defensive play. Someone playing offensively has to put in much much much more effort to win than someone playing defensively. It's annoying. Not enough to make me say the games isn't competitive or anything, but it's still annoying.

With that out of the way, does anyone wanna 1v1? ID is HarimeNui.
I also feel this way.

While I did used to think Sm4sh was a tad too defensive as well, and I wouldn't mind some things being changed (a bit more shieldstun, rolls having more end lag, etc.), the more I played the game, while defensive play is still rewarded, I felt like smart offense can be just as well rewarded.

With Shulk, I used to mindlessly shorthop NAir all day and getting frustrated whenever I got so easily shield grabbed, but I learned to mix it up, go for pivot grabs with Monado Speed, FAir, properly space your aerials, etc. Pikachu's a very fun character for me because it's lot of fun causing a lot of pressure with Quick Attack and being offensive (though I do tend to fallback to Thunder Jolt keepaway when I need time to breathe.) That's just my 2 cents though.

As an aside, almost done unlocking every custom move (have 340 of them apparently) after playing Smash Run a lot lately. Will focus entirely on getting gud once I'm done. x_x
Pikachu is one of the few characters, like Sheik and Diddy that has a massive list of safe offensive options. Shulk gets pretty close with Speed on.

Which reminds me. Counters are so absurdly good in this game that they also encourage passive play.
 

Boney

Banned
Alright give me 2 minutes to connect

Sorry was outside, and kinda lost track of time for a bit

Room's up!

By the way Karst, what do you think of Charizard in this game?
 
So Pit's upperdash arm is an incredible tool against villager's Lloyd rocket. It'll deflect it and hit with the arm, deflect and hit with both (I think not too sure about this) or trade and end up in a winning position.

I believe I found my counter pick for villager :)

He was giving me a hard time with samus because he can stop in midair with this and dodge shots or even use the rocket to win all the horizontal space samus has with the shot. Good stuff I just found out.

Pit's reflect shield is better, since it stops *all* of Villager's approach options. Upperdash Arm isn't really the best option since it can be baited and punished.
 

Boney

Banned
You still here RD? I'll be in for glory checking after every fight.

Pit's reflect shield is better, since it stops *all* of Villager's approach options. Upperdash Arm isn't really the best option since it can be baited and punished.
I was using it more on reaction and at close range so it wasn't punishable whenever I did it, or maybe the player couldn't wise up to it , but he was pretty good so I'll have to check it up on some more villagers.
Pit's guardian orbitars have terrible start up and end lag, but admittedly I barely use them unless once in a blue moon for some safe landing. Gonna have to see how it works.
 
Alright give me 2 minutes to connect

Sorry was outside, and kinda lost track of time for a bit

Room's up!

By the way Karst, what do you think of Charizard in this game?
I think he is underrated, but still not great.

His Fire Breath is better than Bowser's, and I think Bowser's Fire Breath is a fantastic move.

His recovery is awful, but you can fix that with customs.

Flare Blitz is a great move if you know how to use it right.

Rock Crush makes people second guess approaching him for follow-ups, but it has low payoff.

His aerial "hops" are pretty limited and bad. Nair can be safe, but its window is extremely small. His jabs follow up one after another reasonably well, but they are short range. I generally feel like he is a little better than Bowser, but he has a lot of the same issues. If they made Nair always autocancel, he would be a lot better. His moves come out really slow.
 
Shamrock, I generally agree with you. The problem is that you are coming at this as a Ness player. There are a handful of characters in this game with 100% safe offensive options. They can pressure consistently, and it is joyful for them to be on offense. The vast, vast majority of characters are not like that, though. I challenge you to play a character with no safe offensive options for two weeks, like Bowser (who might have the worst offensive options in the game). Then you might understand more of what I am talking about as a systemic issue, and you will understand how frustrating the game's mechanics are from my perspective.

I mean I understand. You admittidley focus on 2 characters that have to be careful with their approaches in Bowser and Gannondorf. I hadn't gotten around to really playing Bowser much in 4 yet, but I played him regularly in Brawl and in that game he had even less offensive options so I know where you are coming from. When the game's roster balloons the way it has, you're going to have characters that fall towards that Bowser/Gannondorf defensive level. I will say one of the things I have noticed really good Gannondorf players do is they take a constant, slow approach towards the opponent while learning to power shield everything. I would look into applying this approach strategy with what you are already doing with your gannondorf. I also don't know how I feel about that sideB. I feel like the default is better.

I would also encourage you to try characters with a more offensive focused (or at least the option to be offensively focused) playstyle, so you you can better see the benefits of offensive play.

Diddy
Sheik
Ness
Lucario
Mario
Luigi
Mii Brawler
Yoshi
Fox
Pikachu
Greninja
Shulk
Wario

There are a few others on the cusp, like C.Falcon, but I'll stick to those (Actually thinking about it, you may like Falcon as you play Gannondorf and Falcon is speedier.)

What are some defensive minded characters you have in mind?
 
SMASHGAF RANBATS – SEASON TWO
The brackets should be all set up. Every player should be able to edit the results for the bracket. If you are unable to edit your bracket, please let me know and I will fix it.

The results of the first round are due by next Sunday, March 7th.

YOU MAY START!

BRACKETS:
Link:
http://tinyurl.com/ok8z7re

SETUP:
• Each player belongs to a bracket.
• Player names are listed as GAFNAME(NNID).
• Each week, you are responsible for playing one new person – of your choice - in your bracket by Sunday night.
• Record the score in Google Spreadsheets using the invitation you were provided with.
o 1 = Winner.
o 0 = Loser.
o The horizontal cells from your name are your score; the vertical is for reference against who you played against.
• The format is Round Robin – everyone plays everyone in their bracket once.

IN-GAME RULES:
• First to 5 wins takes the set.
• 1v1.
• Customs are legal, items and equipment are not.
• Either player may switch characters between matches.
• 2-stock with a 5-minute timer.
• In-game mechanics result in the stage decision (each player picks; game decides).
• Legal stage list:

All For Glory Stages
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise
Skyloft
Castle Seige
Halberd
Delfino
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island


GENERAL EXPECTATIONS:
• Be honest.
• Be respectful.
• Be responsible.

GROUNDS FOR REMOVAL:
• Dishonest score reports.
• Disrespectful conduct.
• Consistent failure to play matches on time.
• Consistent complaints about connection quality.

FAQ:
What should I do to try and find my matches?
PM people on NeoGAF! Try to work out times instead of hoping it all works out.

What if my opponent and I are having trouble making our match happen within the one-week period?
You have a two-week grade period to play each match, but do your best to play your match within the one-week period provided. If you do not play a match one week, you must play two the next to catch up.

Why is <Insert Rule> the case instead of <Insert Other Rule>?
Everything exists as it does because I feel it is a good policy. Nothing is cut into diamond, however, and if the majority player base feels a policy change is needed, I fully welcome discussion on the issue.

Can I join late?
Unless someone drops out mid-season, you will have to wait until the next season begins. There is no player cap, however, so you will be welcome to join when the next season begins.

Can I play ahead, or even finish my entire season right away?
Sure, go for it! I encourage this, actually.
 
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