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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog

D

direct_quote

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
I'm here for Falco fun, but if Karsticles wants to put his theories to the test then I'll drop out because I'm ditching MonHun for this. :T

Seriously Karst, if you're here and want to join DQ for a 2v2, just say the word and I'll go back to hunting. >.>;;;
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He's not on right now, so you're good.. Twas a joke cause he's my teammate in the upcoming tourney..
 
B

Boney

Banned
Go go DK go go dk

Awwwwwww

Would you have wanted to share stock there? Seeing it was 1 v 1 I decided to leave it at that
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
direct_quote said:
Ggs, who is going to be your partner for the tourney? I guess you get pickings from the people who don't have partners first..
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Hehe, you caught me! I'm gonna wait to see if anyone is the odd man out and pair with them if needed; otherwise I might just abstain from entering and handle the TO duties, you know?

Of course, if I find I compliment someone VERY well, who am I to refuse? :3

Edit: I don't know who I could compliment. ;__;
 
A

Anonymous Tipster

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
Hehe, you caught me! I'm gonna wait to see if anyone is the odd man out and pair with them if needed; otherwise I might just abstain from entering and handle the TO duties, you know?

Of course, if I find I compliment someone VERY well, who am I to refuse? :3

Edit: I don't know who I could compliment. ;__;
Click to expand...

What? Just pick someone and play with em! You shouldn't sit out!
 
A

Anonymous Tipster

Member
direct_quote said:
Ok ggs, at least I have a chance against your secondaries >_<...
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Good games DQ! You do fine against my main too, you're too down on yourself man. I think your strengths are in your execution and reaction time. Work on buffing up your ability to predict and change up your strategies and you'll be even more dangerous than you already are!

Thanks for playing though! Always fun!
 
K

Karsticles

Member
If s Sonic player plays the full game against me, I do pretty well. But if he just runs away and charges Spindash, I feel fucked. I can jab or ftilt it consistently, but then it clinks, which pissed me off. Then, after the link, I haven't found a good option.

So I ask:
1) When a Sonic charges Spindash from the edge of the stage, what do you do?
2) When you clank with Spindash, how do you follow it up?
3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.

direct_quote said:
He's off theory crafting with Bowser Robin team :p. Come on need one more...
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Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
I'm here for Falco fun, but if Karsticles wants to put his theories to the test then I'll drop out because I'm ditching MonHun for this. :T

Seriously Karst, if you're here and want to join DQ for a 2v2, just say the word and I'll go back to hunting. >.>;;;
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I decided to start going to locals on Thursdays, so I won't ever be around then. :p
 
M

Masked Man

I said wow
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
I'll try to stay up late on Friday to play with your JST-following self. :)

We could, but I'd need to see who you play first. I wanna try to compliment someone, you know? <3
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Aw, you're sweet. :3 I look forward to it!
And I'm a Palu/Ness/Mac/DH kind of guy, hoping to get better with Shulk and return to my Peach roots as well.

Karsticles said:
If s Sonic player plays the full game against me, I do pretty well. But if he just runs away and charges Spindash, I feel fucked. I can jab or ftilt it consistently, but then it clinks, which pissed me off. Then, after the link, I haven't found a good option.

So I ask:
1) When a Sonic charges Spindash from the edge of the stage, what do you do?
2) When you clank with Spindash, how do you follow it up?
3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.
Click to expand...

UGH I KNOW. Palu's jab clanks with the spindash, but all of his follow-up options are faster than hers, so it feels more like I'm just delaying his offense rather than stopping it entirely.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Boney said:
I just wanna mention that whenever I'm racking damage on a bowser I never feel like I'm having a clear win. I can 0 to 40 most of the cast with a dash attack or a grab on bigger characters, racking up damage is simple as Samus, and especially so against Bowser because I can poke him a lot. But the thing is with Bowser, you're never sure of what is gonna happen next, because all the damage you've cause only gave him rage and one good read, either a smash, a good aerial or even a tilt can make you lose a stock, and all the percentage lead is gone, because that's the nature of the game and that's where the concept of high risk high reward comes from. Bowser is gonna soak a lot of damage early on but relative to other characters it's not gonna be so harmful on bowser, while at the same time bowser is gonna punish you and rack up percent with fortress, tilts, jabs and his other specials.

When I'm at 80% as Samus that is also a heavy weight, I'm scared shitless because one bad decision can mean death. And that's a good psychological advantage that any player facing bowser is gonna go up against.
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Masked Man said:
In some ways, Palutena and Bowser are playing the same game: poking, waiting for you to slip up so we can punish. As Boney said, though, once we're in the higher percentages, one mistake on our side means certain doom. Bowser, however, has the advantage in that he's harder to launch and enjoys super armor on his powerful Usmash.

...And, if it's any consolation, Palutena also gets juggled mercilessly by Luigi, Sheik, and the gang, so at least you're not alone, lol.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm glad that someone is still afraid of Bowser. Probably Karsticles putting the fear of koopa into you. The whole "Bowser is so heavy" thing I find a little overrated. He can be killed around 100% by a lot of things. Fsmashes, offstage spikes/gimps, character-specific attacks like Bouncing fish around the ledge... Today I was killed twice by a Zero Suit Samus' up b around 90%. I feel like his heaviness gives him about 20-30% more leeway than other characters overall, nullified by being combo food at early percentages. It's true that with a series of good reads Bowser can bring things back pretty quickly, though I'm not sure why the same couldn't be said of any close range character.

Getting combo'd as any character is frustrating. Hoping eventually someone puts out a big dataset with directions to DI in for every character's combos, like I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't see why only the pros should get to say "he should have DI'd ___ way" after the fact...

Karsticles said:
Your HTML there leads to the "what women want in women characters" blog, haha.

Glad to see you are feeling better.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's a whoopsee, it was supposed to link here.

I spent 20 minutes bombing the ledge in training mode last night. I want to be perfect at this.
Click to expand...

I can do them perfectly in training. From above, running down b to the ledge etc... this particular move is easy to train to perfection in a static environment. What's going to screw you in battles is the camera. When you're high above the stage and your opponent jumps to intercept you, you won't be able to see the ledge. It's simultaneously the best time to bomb (you'll be more likely to get the hit on them from offscreen) and the worst because if you lost track of the ledge it's unlikely you'll be catching it on the way down. Many many times I've done this, only to have the camera zoom out and show that I was a character length away from the ledge as I SD. Otherwise, main thing to be aware of is momentum moving you slightly as down b starts.

I'm still working on ledge trumps from onstage, now those are way harder than bombing to ledge, I probably have 50% consistency or less at them. If I had it together I think it'd be a really great tool. People are generally not prepared for an offensive ledge trump. Usually when they happen it's by accident, neither player is prepared and no one gets hit. Even at the tournaments, the only person I've seen using ledge trumps as an offensive tool was the guy who beat me up and won the tournament, Zex.

Well, the last time I played BB, it was CS, so I may be out of date on his available moves.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking of his "sledge..." move (quarter circle -> light/medium attack), which goes through any projectile while moving him forwards. I think my Tager example has outlived its usefulness though.

Part of Bowser is understanding that certain things lead to more damage against you than others. For example, Ness gets a good 4 hits off of you from a dthrow at low %. When I play Ness players, I specifically watch out for grabs. I'll take an aerial if I have to, but not a grab, because the damage is so big. You can always choose what kind of punishment you have to take if you have to take punishment on the defense.
Click to expand...

Yeah, maybe I'll do the same. About Ness... his pk fire interacts weirdly with Bowser's tough guy passive ability. Though this game doesn't have smash DI, because tough guy gives you moments where you can input moves normally, I think it's possible to start a dash and get out of the fire at low percents. But I've now played multiple Ness's that chain pk fired me across the stage and KO'd me with the bat. I usually DI up and away but when I'm stuck in one as another pk fire comes out I just cannot seem to get out of them. Have you dealt with this before?

Jabs do end eventually, I think. I've tried to mash A as hard as I could for as long as I can as Palutena, and it always ends at some point. Even so, you can do a lot of things if Palutena mashes the jab out:
1) Roll through it.
2) Fire Breath.
3) SHADC through it.
4) Jump on her and dair or bomb.

It's definitely not a good idea from her perspective. Also, I think I have a pretty sick setup off of a SHADC with customs. Use the Dash Slam, SHADC through someone, and when you Dash Slam, it will catch shields and back dashes. People usually don't roll through Bowser on the SHADC. I am going to try playing with Dash Slam some this next week.
Click to expand...

Maybe she has one like that. Many characters keep their jabs going as long as they want, but maybe not her. You're right about the options there.

I've honestly never had trouble against a Yoshi. He's pretty easy to deal with in my experience. Dair is punishable. His ground throw is really weak, so you can get in his face and Fortress all you want without worry.

R.O.B. is easy to handle when you learn how to pick up items (SHAD, fair, dash attacks - great tools against Megaman as well). I don't have problems against him.
Click to expand...

I think these fall into you having not met the players I've met is all. You may have better reaction speed in the ROB fight than I do, which would make dealing with the top easier. I could just be shit at those matchups for some reason :(

Tech =/= advanced technique.

Tech = technical = involving technique = (Webster's Def):
"a way of doing something by using special knowledge or skill"

A Fire Breath gimp attempt qualifies here. It involves a specialized knowledge of Fire Breath's mechanics and Bowser's recovery capacity.
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I'm saying in the context of Smash community vernacular, not that your wrong in the dictionary definition sense of the word. Not a big deal either way.

Palutena wants to keep space, though. Bowser wants to get in your face.

I think both characters are probably B tier at this point.[/QUOTE]

The thing about 51 characters is, half of them have to be better than the other half. No matter what character someone mains, they're always going to be biased towards that character's rank in the tier lists... I'd say you're grading about one too high. The recent Japanese tier list looks mostly right to me. Projectile characters like DHD and Pac-man are higher than I think they should be, but that's a function of Japan's focus on Final Destination-style stages.

I went to another tournament tonight and played the worst I've played out of the four I've been to. I SD'd once in practically every match I played. Rather than being a test of where I'm at one way or the other, it was just a waste of time. When I'm performing that crappy, nothing can be said about whether I can take the better players or not. Played what I believe is the best Captain Falcon player in the region, if I wasn't busy choking and SD'ing I think I could have at least gotten a close game or two before being knocked to losers bracket.

Edit:
Karsticles said:
If s Sonic player plays the full game against me, I do pretty well. But if he just runs away and charges Spindash, I feel fucked. I can jab or ftilt it consistently, but then it clinks, which pissed me off. Then, after the link, I haven't found a good option.

So I ask:
1) When a Sonic charges Spindash from the edge of the stage, what do you do?
2) When you clank with Spindash, how do you follow it up?
3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.
Click to expand...

There isn't really any good answer. Try and practice the motion of the pivot grab from standing position. It can be nearly instant - tap away then grab and reverse direction. Beats spindash, and easier to land than you'd think if they're doing it from the other side of the stage.

2- Sonic's jabs and ftilt come out faster than Bowser's jab, and I don't think Fortress will save you. Maybe taking a defensive tack - grab after you shield their followup?
3- pivot grab, that's it on the ground barring an incredibly well timed smash or something. As I think of it, how about full jumping towards them as they roll towards you, air dodge the jump attack and bair? Or an aerial depending which side of you they end up on... Could work. Maybe.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm glad that someone is still afraid of Bowser. Probably Karsticles putting the fear of koopa into you. The whole "Bowser is so heavy" thing I find a little overrated. He can be killed around 100% by a lot of things. Fsmashes, offstage spikes/gimps, character-specific attacks like Bouncing fish around the ledge... Today I was killed twice by a Zero Suit Samus' up b around 90%. I feel like his heaviness gives him about 20-30% more leeway than other characters overall, nullified by being combo food at early percentages. It's true that with a series of good reads Bowser can bring things back pretty quickly, though I'm not sure why the same couldn't be said of any close range character.
Click to expand...
Every character has a move that you simply most not get hit by if you want to live to a reasonable %. For ZSS, it is her up B.
Yeah that's a whoopsee, it was supposed to link here.
Click to expand...
K.

I can do them perfectly in training. From above, running down b to the ledge etc... this particular move is easy to train to perfection in a static environment. What's going to screw you in battles is the camera. When you're high above the stage and your opponent jumps to intercept you, you won't be able to see the ledge. It's simultaneously the best time to bomb (you'll be more likely to get the hit on them from offscreen) and the worst because if you lost track of the ledge it's unlikely you'll be catching it on the way down. Many many times I've done this, only to have the camera zoom out and show that I was a character length away from the ledge as I SD. Otherwise, main thing to be aware of is momentum moving you slightly as down b starts.
Click to expand...
I only missed one last night at locals. I got 3 kills from it. :) Including one stage -> ledge Bomb that killed a Megaman on his recovery. It was hype as hell.

I'm still working on ledge trumps from onstage, now those are way harder than bombing to ledge, I probably have 50% consistency or less at them. If I had it together I think it'd be a really great tool. People are generally not prepared for an offensive ledge trump. Usually when they happen it's by accident, neither player is prepared and no one gets hit. Even at the tournaments, the only person I've seen using ledge trumps as an offensive tool was the guy who beat me up and won the tournament, Zex.
Click to expand...
What is your method?

I also noticed that you can run off the stage with Bowser, hop back, and bair, and he will recovery just fine. It could be an interesting option.

I'm thinking of his "sledge..." move (quarter circle -> light/medium attack), which goes through any projectile while moving him forwards. I think my Tager example has outlived its usefulness though.
Click to expand...
K.

Yeah, maybe I'll do the same. About Ness... his pk fire interacts weirdly with Bowser's tough guy passive ability. Though this game doesn't have smash DI, because tough guy gives you moments where you can input moves normally, I think it's possible to start a dash and get out of the fire at low percents. But I've now played multiple Ness's that chain pk fired me across the stage and KO'd me with the bat. I usually DI up and away but when I'm stuck in one as another pk fire comes out I just cannot seem to get out of them. Have you dealt with this before?
Click to expand...
At low % you can just walk right out of it, or even attack. On plenty of occasions, Shamrock has hit me with PK fire, gone in for a throw, and I've just punched him in the face.

Maybe she has one like that. Many characters keep their jabs going as long as they want, but maybe not her. You're right about the options there.
Click to expand...
K.

I think these fall into you having not met the players I've met is all. You may have better reaction speed in the ROB fight than I do, which would make dealing with the top easier. I could just be shit at those matchups for some reason :(
Click to expand...
Well, I can't see how ROB would be harder to fight than, say, Megaman or Villager, and I've fought a greater Villager and Megaman player and go roughly even. Even if I haven't played ROBs as good as yours, I don't see how he can be such a troubling matchup compared to them.

I'm saying in the context of Smash community vernacular, not that your wrong in the dictionary definition sense of the word. Not a big deal either way.
Click to expand...
The Smash community is pretty moronic when it comes to word usage. I actually don't think there is a community that has so many stupid words with basic meanings.

The thing about 51 characters is, half of them have to be better than the other half. No matter what character someone mains, they're always going to be biased towards that character's rank in the tier lists... I'd say you're grading about one too high. The recent Japanese tier list looks mostly right to me. Projectile characters like DHD and Pac-man are higher than I think they should be, but that's a function of Japan's focus on Final Destination-style stages.
Click to expand...
At the same time, have they played a good Palutena with customs? Have they played any good Bowsers? Good Sheiks are a dime a dozen, but no one in my local scene had even played a Bowser before me. We can help people understand that Bowser is a force to be reckoned with...until Mewtwo. ;-D


There isn't really any good answer. Try and practice the motion of the pivot grab from standing position. It can be nearly instant - tap away then grab and reverse direction. Beats spindash, and easier to land than you'd think if they're doing it from the other side of the stage.

2- Sonic's jabs and ftilt come out faster than Bowser's jab, and I don't think Fortress will save you. Maybe taking a defensive tack - grab after you shield their followup?
3- pivot grab, that's it on the ground barring an incredibly well timed smash or something. As I think of it, how about full jumping towards them as they roll towards you, air dodge the jump attack and bair? Or an aerial depending which side of you they end up on... Could work. Maybe.
Click to expand...
Against Lucario, I noticed that I could jab clank, and then roll through him into Fortress instead of going for another clank. I tried pivot grabbing last night, but I swear my damn hand was going through Sonic right before he hit me. Jumping as they come toward me just means they go under me and the situation is reset. I want something that beats it so it stops happening all the time. It's just annoying.
 
J

jnWake

Member
As a Yoshi player, I agree with Karsticles. I don't feel that match-up is that good for Yoshi though I think Yoshi has the advantage.

Yoshi's grab is quite bad, so Bowser can play defensively without much worry. Also, Yoshi's main strength is the air but Bowser can cover those with Dairs and Bowser Bombs, so that forces Yoshi to not try and air attack Bowser.

Still, Yoshi's eggs and somewhat quick smashes give him an edge against Bowser IMO. Also, since Bowser is pretty big, eggs are easy to land and that can lead to decent follow ups.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
jnWake said:
As a Yoshi player, I agree with Karsticles. I don't feel that match-up is that good for Yoshi though I think Yoshi has the advantage.

Yoshi's grab is quite bad, so Bowser can play defensively without much worry. Also, Yoshi's main strength is the air but Bowser can cover those with Dairs and Bowser Bombs, so that forces Yoshi to not try and air attack Bowser.

Still, Yoshi's eggs and somewhat quick smashes give him an edge against Bowser IMO. Also, since Bowser is pretty big, eggs are easy to land and that can lead to decent follow ups.
Click to expand...
Outside of laggy matches, I've honestly never found eggs to be frustrating. People always talk about how good the eggs are for approaching, but it's like a myth to me.
 
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