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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog

C

Cronox

Banned
I can't help but think of a certain debate happening in the smashboards competitive discussion section regarding suicide moves...
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Ok nearly every round I jump forward into fire breath and get hit by your dash slash at the start. This time I jump to dash slash and get hit by your fire breath. I can't win :(
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
Ok nearly every round I jump forward into fire breath and get hit by your dash slash at the start. This time I jump to dash slash and get hit by your fire breath. I can't win :(
Click to expand...
Lol, I noticed that. You always lost on spacing at the start.

GGs. Both of us have improved a lot since we last played. How were you liking Dash Slash?

If you give up Klaw, Bomb becomes infinitely more important because it is your only decent early kill move outside of edge guarding situations and massive punishes. You need to make those reads and take those risks.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
GGs Karsticles. I think with customs off I'd have done a lot better. I have very little experience with or against dash slash. I had to laugh at some of the things you got me with, like fair'ing me across the stage. I could have stopped that from happening in retrospect, but I suppose tonight I was just here to make you look good. It does seem like normal bowser can't compete against dash slash but maybe I just need more time to know what to expect and when to shield. I was always surprised by it's air range, and the amount of things of Bowser's it trades with. Against other characters it seems to lose to a lot of attacks, but against Bowser it wins against fortress and other attacks.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
GGs Karsticles. I think with customs off I'd have done a lot better. I have very little experience with or against dash slash. I had to laugh at some of the things you got me with, like fair'ing me across the stage. I could have stopped that from happening in retrospect, but I suppose tonight I was just here to make you look good. It does seem like normal bowser can't compete against dash slash but maybe I just need more time to know what to expect and when to shield. I was always surprised by it's air range, and the amount of things of Bowser's it trades with. Against other characters it seems to lose to a lot of attacks, but against Bowser it wins against fortress and other attacks.
Click to expand...
It wins against lots of stuff from other characters, too, but it is really about the mobility. I have only been sticking to it for the last two weeks, so I am not far ahead of you on the tech.

The difference between default Bowser and Dash Slash Bowser is that default must play defensive, waiting for mistakes. He has to pressure the opponent into bad situations. Dash Slash Bowser has one good offensive tool, which give him versatility. Turtling against him becomes much less effective, and he can punish rolls midscreen.

Practicing with customs is necessary these days. I hope our matches gave you some new stuff to look forward to practicing to make Bowser shine!
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Kids getting uppity because they get a KO with Yoshi and Toon Link's up smashes once each after getting bopped by Greninja. Hard to tell when people are messing around and when they're being salty.

It's so dumb when people get hit by Mega Man's down throw forward air then I immediately throw a metal blade and grab them again. I assume most people would jump out of there but no, they get grabbed 3 times in a row. Going to trick me into thinking I'm actually good at Mega Man.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Karsticles said:
Lol, I noticed that. You always lost on spacing at the start.

GGs. Both of us have improved a lot since we last played. How were you liking Dash Slash?

If you give up Klaw, Bomb becomes infinitely more important because it is your only decent early kill move outside of edge guarding situations and massive punishes. You need to make those reads and take those risks.
Click to expand...

I'm concerned about the risk side of things - against the type of character that can convert a whiffed bomb into 60% damage at low percents and another 30-40% at higher ones, you only can only afford a couple whiffs. Against another Bowser it's actually much safer to throw out, he'll never punish you more than 20% or so and followups are negotiable.

Karsticles said:
It wins against lots of stuff from other characters, too, but it is really about the mobility. I have only been sticking to it for the last two weeks, so I am not far ahead of you on the tech.

The difference between default Bowser and Dash Slash Bowser is that default must play defensive, waiting for mistakes. He has to pressure the opponent into bad situations. Dash Slash Bowser has one good offensive tool, which give him versatility. Turtling against him becomes much less effective, and he can punish rolls midscreen.

Practicing with customs is necessary these days. I hope our matches gave you some new stuff to look forward to practicing to make Bowser shine!
Click to expand...

Well, take the time we spent playing tonight and add about an hour of gameplay to that and you'll have my total time spent on dash slash... I've really preferred flying slam, and as I still do most of my playing on FG it's still my bread and butter. Back when we played a while ago and you used it against me I wasn't as impressed.

Edit: I have now fought 4000 battles.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
I'm concerned about the risk side of things - against the type of character that can convert a whiffed bomb into 60% damage at low percents and another 30-40% at higher ones, you only can only afford a couple whiffs. Against another Bowser it's actually much safer to throw out, he'll never punish you more than 20% or so and followups are negotiable.



Well, take the time we spent playing tonight and add about an hour of gameplay to that and you'll have my total time spent on dash slash... I've really preferred flying slam, and as I still do most of my playing on FG it's still my bread and butter. Back when we played a while ago and you used it against me I wasn't as impressed.
Click to expand...
I totally follow you on the risk. However, if Bowser goes for any kind of offense, it is inherently high risk. Even if you aren't comfortable with Dash Slash offensively, look at how many times I completely avoided your edge guard game because of it. Bowser's #1 weakness is his predictable recovery, and this fixes it. That is pretty huge. I value it for that alone.

I still like Flying Slam a lot, but until it kills opponents first and I get control, it is also a liability. If I would have jumped out of the slam in that match we went to SD, that would have been your loss for landing a move you can't control. I have lost competitive matches because of that crap. I LOVE default Klaw. It is my favorite move in the game. But I like winning more.

Also, Dash Slash is fantastic against projectiles. I sailed over everything and got in on Twilt tonight when he played Link and Pikachu. I just use it like an air dash, then I slide into a grab or jab. Just the threat of the quick mobility forces people to be defensive. I only miss Klaw because it is cool and it is a KO option I land frequently.

Anyway, play him how you like. I can tell you that Dash Slash destroys hover characters like Jiggs, though. It just helps him in a lot of ways, while Klaw is more of the same stuff he has already (amazing punishes, reads, and kill options). I feel like weakening that is worth the gain.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Karsticles said:
I totally follow you on the risk. However, if Bowser goes for any kind of offense, it is inherently high risk. Even if you aren't comfortable with Dash Slash offensively, look at how many times I completely avoided your edge guard game because of it. Bowser's #1 weakness is his predictable recovery, and this fixes it. That is pretty huge. I value it for that alone.

I still like Flying Slam a lot, but until it kills opponents first and I get control, it is also a liability. If I would have jumped out of the slam in that match we went to SD, that would have been your loss for landing a move you can't control. I have lost competitive matches because of that crap. I LOVE default Klaw. It is my favorite move in the game. But I like winning more.

Also, Dash Slash is fantastic against projectiles. I sailed over everything and got in on Twilt tonight when he played Link and Pikachu. I just use it like an air dash, then I slide into a grab or jab. Just the threat of the quick mobility forces people to be defensive. I only miss Klaw because it is cool and it is a KO option I land frequently.

Anyway, play him how you like. I can tell you that Dash Slash destroys hover characters like Jiggs, though. It just helps him in a lot of ways, while Klaw is more of the same stuff he has already (amazing punishes, reads, and kill options). I feel like weakening that is worth the gain.
Click to expand...

No, you're right. The more I think about our matches tonight, I just am not used to it. When I used it offensively I didn't have a particular strategy (besides DS -> dtilt, I suppose), and when you used it I wasn't used to the speed and setups. I was also using it poorly at the ledge, you always space outwards for a moment, then dash slash, while I was trying to do a getup version like one might do to catch someone with the klaw. Doesn't work with dash slash - that's why your fortresses got me and you hit me out of mine. Certainly I know default Bowser doesn't cut it against the best players, he's a limited character, so I suppose dash slash is necessary. I suppose I've resisted long enough. It's just sad when using dash slash and you can't kill the other player, as you said bombs become super important. Otherwise they could live to 150+ until an ftilt takes them out. I'll hit the lab with this.

Oh yeah: record some matches sometime, if you have the means to. There's very little Bowser content on the intertubes, getting some ideas of matchups would be helpful, and not just for me. I always enjoy doing some matchup theory. I have some good matches I had with a pac-man I'm going to upload at some point when I have a better camera than my phone...
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Tipster acting like we're Robot Masters blocking his path to Wily and he on his last e-tank.

GGs guys, it was fun as usual but it's fucking 3 am over here I need to sleep so good night. Tipster I don't know how you do it man, nobody plays the Blue Bomber like you I suppose.

Oh, and DQ stop hitting me ;P
 
A

Anonymous Tipster

Member
Good games guys! Fun as always, and pretty intense in many cases!

Thanks for playing everyone!

I only picked him because your Fox is brutal and I wanted the practice (Plus he's super fun haha). You've got great grab defense with the nairs and I like the jab to throws. Plus your speed makes commitment to moves scary.

And when it's you and DQ, you made me pay for every throw. And I was all out of zenny!
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
No, you're right. The more I think about our matches tonight, I just am not used to it. When I used it offensively I didn't have a particular strategy (besides DS -> dtilt, I suppose), and when you used it I wasn't used to the speed and setups. I was also using it poorly at the ledge, you always space outwards for a moment, then dash slash, while I was trying to do a getup version like one might do to catch someone with the klaw. Doesn't work with dash slash - that's why your fortresses got me and you hit me out of mine. Certainly I know default Bowser doesn't cut it against the best players, he's a limited character, so I suppose dash slash is necessary. I suppose I've resisted long enough. It's just sad when using dash slash and you can't kill the other player, as you said bombs become super important. Otherwise they could live to 150+ until an ftilt takes them out. I'll hit the lab with this.

Oh yeah: record some matches sometime, if you have the means to. There's very little Bowser content on the intertubes, getting some ideas of matchups would be helpful, and not just for me. I always enjoy doing some matchup theory. I have some good matches I had with a pac-man I'm going to upload at some point when I have a better camera than my phone...
Click to expand...
The best way to avoid the 150% kill is realizing that Bowser Bomb can punish in 99% of the cases Klaw can, and just learning to switch over to it. It is more high risk, but that just means you need greater certainty. ;)

I should record more matches. I saved a few of ours tonight. I guess I feel like I am not that good at the game, so I shouldn't waste people's time. Then again, only one other Bowser player has impressed me on YouTube.
 
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