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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog

K

Karsticles

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I'm disappointed that you're endorsing a Suicide Clause, Karst.
Click to expand...
APEX did.

It's really just a Bowser issue. Right now, Flying Slam is heavily glitched. I can grab someone in the middle of the stage at 0% while my opponent is at 60%, and the game might randomly decide to give full control to my opponent. My opponent might take us both off the ledge if he decides to, ending the match in his favor according to the game code.

In what world is that okay, and how?

It doesn't matter too much anyway, because every Bowser player on the planet is using Dash Slash. It came up during my ranbat matches with Cronoc, though, and I gave him the SD win. He landed the move, so he deserves the win. This rule does not benefit me at all, because I don't use Flying Slam on Bowser. I do think it is the right decision to make.

That said, if a player can jump out of the Flying Slam kill, then that's still legit. So, Flying Slam, and Dash Slam, are still completely unusable even with this rule.

Like I said, it's a rough draft. If people are opposed to it, it can be changed. I just realized that I didn't have clauses for time-outs (which occurred last season between two players) and Bowser's odd SD situation. I don't think I am biased in my decision - I have always believed that a player should never be punished for landing an attack.

I understand that some people feel we should follow the game code in all situations, yet no one thinks we should go to Sudden Death at 300% to determine time out matches. Assuming we both agree 300% SD is a poor way to decide matches, how is this different?
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Karsticles said:
APEX did.
Click to expand...
Because they lazily copy/pasted it over from their Brawl rules without stopping for a moment to ask if there's even a reason for that rule to exist in Smash 4.

In Brawl, the result of a double KO via suicide actually changed depending on which controller port you were plugged into. Sometimes you'd win. Sometimes you'd lose. So Brawl players decided to implement a Suicide Clause rather than force players to squabble over which controller port they used. (Which is a ruling I still disagree with, but I can at least see the logic in the decision.)

Controller port priority does not exist in Smash 4. Ergo, the original justification for the rule no longer exists either.

It's an inherently scrubby rule for Smash 4. "I just self-destructed, but because I think this move should be better than it actually is, I deserve the win anyway." Rules that exist for no other effective reason than to selectively buff specific characters/attacks and override the effect of balance patches are super lame, even when said balance patches were questionable in the first place. Sometimes a character is just bad and you should have to live with it.

I actually had to lay down this law on a Bowser player at one of our locals on Saturday (and offered to personally comp him for his entry fee for the next event since some people were under the assumption that we were using this rule), and I've basically argued on Smashboards that it'll be a cold day in hell before Atlanta employs a Suicide Clause. Most of the local top players are with me on this.

Ultimately, though, I'm not playing in these ranbats, and I think the people who are should carry more weight than me on this. (And probably no one cares, lol.)

I have always believed that a player should never be punished for landing an attack.
Click to expand...
Even if, for example, a Dante uses Million Dollars to kill a Phoenix with 5 bars on deck?

I think it's the player's responsibility to know not to use a move that will blow up in his own face.

Karsticles said:
I understand that some people feel we should follow the game code in all situations, yet no one thinks we should go to Sudden Death at 300% to determine time out matches. Assuming we both agree 300% SD is a poor way to decide matches, how is this different?
Click to expand...
If you want consistency from me, I'm actually completely indifferent on whether SD is used or not. Changing that rule just isn't a battle I'm willing to fight anyone on because I know how pointless it would be.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Because they lazily copy/pasted it over from their Brawl rules without stopping for a moment to ask if there's even a reason for that rule to exist in Smash 4.

In Brawl, the result of a double KO via suicide actually changed depending on which controller port you were plugged into. Sometimes you'd win. Sometimes you'd lose. So Brawl players decided to implement a Suicide Clause rather than force players to squabble over which controller port they used. (Which is a ruling I still disagree with, but I can at least see the logic in the decision.)

Controller port priority does not exist in Smash 4. Ergo, the original justification for the rule no longer exists either.

It's an inherently scrubby rule for Smash 4. "I just self-destructed, but because I think this move should be better than it actually is, I deserve the win anyway." Rules that exist for no other effective reason than to selectively buff specific characters/attacks are super lame. Sometimes a character is just bad and you should have to live with it.

I actually had to lay down this law on a Bowser player at one of our locals on Saturday (and offered to personally comp him for his entry fee for the next event since some people were under the assumption that we were using this rule), and I've basically argued on Smashboards that it'll be a cold day in hell before Atlanta employs a Suicide Clause.

Ultimately, though, I'm not playing in these ranbats, and I think the people who are should carry more weight than me on this.


Even if, for example, a Dante uses Million Dollars to kill a Phoenix with 5 bars on deck?

I think it's the players responsibility to know not to use a move that will blow up in his own face.
Click to expand...
You think that APEX should have let Brawl decide winners based on controller port?

I do think that Dante being vulnerable to Dark Phoenix's transformation is an oversight of judgment on Capcom's part. That situation is a bit different, though, in that it would be unreasonable to force people to "wait" before playing again, or something like that. I'm not a fan of how the current Dark Phoenix transformation functions in general (she can combo off of the burst).

The point here is that Bowser's Flying Slam can never ever be used safely. It is a broken move because the code doesn't work right sometimes. If it were a 50/50 control, or even skewed toward the lower % like it is designed to be, then this wouldn't be a problem. But when Bowser is at 0%, and he tries to KO an opponent at 130% with this move, he can lose the match due to problems in the code. It isn't just a case of "know your character" - this is a random decision the game makes to give your opponent full control of the maneuverability of the move. It's a very unique situation.

If the maneuverability is fixed in 1.0.6, then I can agree with you. It is still a stupid, stupid design decision, but at least I could say that the Bowser player should know better. Right now it's "that Bowser player should know better than to use one of his moves...ever".

Also, you haven't explained how this is different from Time Out rules. Why is it okay to circumvent the game's code in that instance, but not this? Why not just accept that we have to play a 300% Sudden Death event when the timer goes to 0, like Sakurai intended and the game is programmed to? Unless you can explain why that situation is fundamentally different and "not scrubby", I think you're being inconsistent in your logic.

Edit: Well, if you think 300% SD as a match decider is okay, then I don't think we have any common ground between us. I find your opinion entirely baffling on that issue.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Karsticles said:
You think that APEX should have let Brawl decide winners based on controller port?
Click to expand...
I don't feel as strongly about that situation, but yes, basically.

Moves that function differently depending on which player you are isn't an unheard of phenomenon in other fighting games, and there are actually (admittedly obscure) rules in place in those games to integrate side selection into character/stage/etc. selection. I'd just go with that.

But again, I don't care as much about that, either.

Also, you haven't explained how this is different from Time Out rules. Why is it okay to circumvent the game's code in that instance, but not this?
Click to expand...
Because at least "player w/ lowest percentage at time over wins" is concrete and unambiguous in that one player can be thought to be in the lead when the decision is made. EDIT: And you can actually argue that the accumulation of KOs is the core skill being tested in Smash Bros, and that if you haven't yet taken the opponent's stock, then you haven't yet earned a meaningful "point" of any kind and are not yet in the "lead." I dunno if I'd go that far myself, considering that I'm not fond of how SD works either, but I think it's an argument that actually has some merit.

The Suicide Clause can and has been employed in situations where the victim of the suicide can actually jump out of the move and make it back to the stage, which is all sorts of lame.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I don't feel as strongly about that situation, but yes, basically.

Moves that function differently depending on which player you are isn't an unheard of phenomenon in other fighting games, and there are actually (admittedly obscure) rules in place in those games to integrate side selection into character/stage/etc. selection. I'd just go with that.

But again, I don't care as much about that, either.


Because at least "player w/ lowest percentage at time over wins" is concrete and unambiguous in that one player can be thought to be in the lead when the decision is made. EDIT: And you can actually argue that the accumulation of KOs is the core skill being tested in Smash Bros, and that if you haven't yet taken the opponent's stock, then you haven't yet earned a meaningful "point" of any kind and are not yet in the "lead." I dunno if I'd go that far myself, considering that I'm not fond of how SD works either, but I think it's an argument that actually has some merit.

The Suicide Clause can and has been employed in situations where the victim of the suicide can actually jump out of the move and make it back to the stage, which is all sorts of lame.
Click to expand...
Well, I don't think we see eye-to-eye on the fundamentals behind this discussion, and I doubt we will be able to bridge them based on your opinions.

I will say that I don't think it's possible to enforce that last line you said, because Bowser can try to SD the first stock. If you jump out of it and recover, it would be pretty ridiculous to force the player to jump off the ledge and SD, or something.

I doubt this will matter anyway. We have 3 Bowser mains here, and I know two of us use Dash Slash. I will try to convert the third Bowser main to Dash Slash, because it's better than Klaw. :p
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
There is always the chance that the patch won't fix Bowsercide at all.

Dash Slash is pretty great though.

----------------------

Well Smashboards evidently doesn't want me there considering I got no response whatsoever and the requested user which is me apparently can't be found. So whatever.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
MagiusNecros said:
There is always the chance that the patch won't fix Bowsercide at all.

Dash Slash is pretty great though.

----------------------

Well Smashboards evidently doesn't want me there considering I got no response whatsoever and the requested user which is me apparently can't be found. So whatever.
Click to expand...
If it isn't fixed and I switch to Mewtwo, I'll get rid of the rule. Kappa.

No luck with the Contact link?
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Karsticles said:
No luck with the Contact link?
Click to expand...

You send a message with your SmashBoards Username and the email address you use and I got nothing. This was 9 hours ago. So oh well.

--------------------

On the subject of Ranbats Season 3 anyone who only has one version of Smash has to wait till the 28th for Mewtwo. Club Nintendo people(which is hopefully everyone) get it on the 15th.

I do want to play Mewtwo though. I used him a lot in Melee.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
SmashGAF!

I am finally getting this game tomorrow and am unreasonably excited. I have a couple questions:

1) anyone forego the GCN adapter and get the HORI or PDP pads? Which do you prefer? I'd rather go this route because these can be used as classic controller pro for the Wii VC, unlike GCN adapter pads.

2) do casuals play online? I am considering getting an ethernet adapter but is the extra $15 worth it if I'm just going to get my ass kicked? I might be okay just playing against my Bowser Amiibo. I do plan on playing locally with my wife, too.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
IntelliHeath said:
Basically, you are going to be free in two hours? If so then I would like to get it over with.
Click to expand...

I'm playing Boney @3PM, if it doesn't drag out for too long I'll play you immidiately afterwards
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
The Lamonster said:
SmashGAF!

I am finally getting this game tomorrow and am unreasonably excited. I have a couple questions:

1) anyone forego the GCN adapter and get the HORI or PDP pads? Which do you prefer? I'd rather go this route because these can be used as classic controller pro for the Wii VC, unlike GCN adapter pads.

2) do casuals play online? I am considering getting an ethernet adapter but is the extra $15 worth it if I'm just going to get my ass kicked? I might be okay just playing against my Bowser Amiibo. I do plan on playing locally with my wife, too.
Click to expand...
I actually play Brawl using the Classic Controller Pro, and I'm assuming the Hori pads work similar to it. They're perfectly fine alternatives to the Gamecube controller, especially if you'd rather not spend $20 on an adapter.

Also, there are two matchmaking modes in this game: "For Fun" and "For Glory." For Fun is where you'd go to play free-for-all matches with items against other randoms, so that could be up your alley. There's definitely casual players online, for sure. :)
 
F

FlowWayfarer

Neo Member
The Lamonster said:
SmashGAF!

I am finally getting this game tomorrow and am unreasonably excited. I have a couple questions:

1) anyone forego the GCN adapter and get the HORI or PDP pads? Which do you prefer? I'd rather go this route because these can be used as classic controller pro for the Wii VC, unlike GCN adapter pads.

2) do casuals play online? I am considering getting an ethernet adapter but is the extra $15 worth it if I'm just going to get my ass kicked? I might be okay just playing against my Bowser Amiibo. I do plan on playing locally with my wife, too.
Click to expand...


I just recently went through this exercise, so hopefully my experience helps!

1) I don't have the official Nintendo one, but I have this Mayflash one. Works flawlessly on both WiiU and PC and is $20. No detectable lag! This is the way to go if you want to use a GCN and not pay gouged prices for the Nintendo one.
I tried playing with the pro controller too, and I actually really liked the button layout, but I was getting input lag. Not sure if my place just has a ton of interference going on, but I was flubbing inputs because of it. I hate to controller john, but there was a noticeable difference with a wired connection, for me anyway. Many use them with good effect from what I've heard, so maybe mine is just challenged, idk. YMMV.
Haven't tried the ones you listed, but if I had to choose, go wired.

2) My experience with online has been mixed. I've run into some pretty skilled players that are fun to play against, and some that totally kick my ass. I've also had my fair share of super scrubby players who either flat out suck, or just promote crazy boring gameplay. I don't stick around more than a match with those and usually get back in the queue to find someone else. Played one dude for almost 2 hours of close matches once as we cycled through our better characters. Was a bunch of fun! You can most likely find people of your skill level who are fun to play, just have to look sometimes.
$15 for a wired adapter is totally worth it. I got one and it noticeably improved my connection. Don't hesitate on one if you plan on playing online.
Also, online can be really fun. While I would much rather play with people sitting next to me in the same room, sometimes that's not a possibility at 11PM on a Wednesday. I've only played with a few people here on GAF, but I've had a good time regardless of how frustrated Tipster says I was getting ;). From what I've seen, people here are skilled and good natured, and playing good people makes you better, so I'm all for it. CPUs and amibii(?) only go so far.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Regarding suicide clause. One of the things that stand out to me is that bowsercide isn't consistent, varying on a stage by stage basis. If there isn't any clarity with that, who's not to say that the move glitched out with the last patch and that it should be killing first.
If the move worked correctly, and the momentum would be on the % leader and it'd be consistent across the board then I'd say no suicide clause is needed.
But due to how it works, I'm fine with it.

Roboleon, if you're reading, I'm available since now or we could wait until the time we set (1 hours and 20 minutes)

The Lamonster said:
SmashGAF!

I am finally getting this game tomorrow and am unreasonably excited. I have a couple questions:

1) anyone forego the GCN adapter and get the HORI or PDP pads? Which do you prefer? I'd rather go this route because these can be used as classic controller pro for the Wii VC, unlike GCN adapter pads.

2) do casuals play online? I am considering getting an ethernet adapter but is the extra $15 worth it if I'm just going to get my ass kicked? I might be okay just playing against my Bowser Amiibo. I do plan on playing locally with my wife, too.
Click to expand...

Regarding online players, yeah there's people of all skill levels and most of the times you won't find high level players in random for glory matches. People use external services to friend up and play that way.
Usual players go from low level and mid level.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Boney said:
Regarding suicide clause. One of the things that stand out to me is that bowsercide isn't consistent, varying on a stage by stage basis. If there isn't any clarity with that, who's not to say that the move glitched out with the last patch and that it should be killing first.
Click to expand...
Bowser either dies first or goes to sudden death. He never wins outright according to the game.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Are we friends, Boney? I'm Roboleon on NN as well
 
B

Boney

Banned
Roboleon said:
Are we friends, Boney? I'm Roboleon on NN as well
Click to expand...
Adding you right this moment. Let's do a lag test and hope for the best seeing you're euro and I'm s.america

And good luck!

There's a noticeably delay, but I guess we'll have to deal with it

Forgot to add time as well.
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Sixfortyfive said:
Bowser either dies first or goes to sudden death. He never wins outright according to the game.
Click to expand...

Yeah Bowser's Side B kinda got Melee Mewtwo'd.

Pretty sad really.

Especially since Bowser literally grabs the opponent with both muscle arms and proceeds to body slam them to a pulp. They really should have little to no control over that. And Bowser dying first makes no sense considering he is on top of them.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Congrats Boney, well played! :)

My ass was not prepared!
 
B

Boney

Banned
Alright, good games man. Best of luck in the rest of the matches.

The matches ended up 5-0 in my favour.

Could you please put the results for the matches in that google doc for me? It doesn't work on my phone sadly

Roboleon said:
Congrats Boney, well played! :)

My ass was not prepared!
Click to expand...
Don't worry, I don't think I should be in bracket 5, but here I am. You did almost get a few lucky bowling balls
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Boney said:
Alright, good games man. Best of luck in the rest of the matches.

The matches ended up 5-0 in my favour.

Could you please put the results for the matches in that google doc for me? It doesn't work on my phone sadly
Click to expand...

Sure! Will put it in later


Heath, are you here? Or DQ, and flapjack?
 
A

Astral/H3X

Member
Wow this Sonic just let me UTilt him 3 times in a row into a parasol. Didn't kill him, but I was surprised I got all of that out haha. Surely he could have gotten out of it.

And then I floated out of the way of his Dair for an SD kill haha.
 
I

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
1. IntelliHeath (Duck Hunt) > Roboleon (Villager) by 2-0
2. IntelliHeath (Duck Hunt) > Roboleon (Villager) by 2-1
3. IntelliHeath (Duck Hunt) > Roboleon (Villager) by 2-0
4. IntelliHeath (Little Mac) > Roboleon (Villager) by 2-0
5. IntelliHeath (Ganondorf) > Roboleon (Villager) by 2-1


Good Games, Roboleon. I guess I will have to wait until FDLink to get his internet set up then I'm all done with ranbats.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Getting closer!!!! :p


Edit: one last one! Having great fun
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Thanks for the matches, Heath! Had to go now, hope to play you again some time! Will practice a bit, and hopefully take a game eventually! xD
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
If I can play Direct Quote and Flapjack tomorrow, I'll avoid the dreaded Karsticles' ranbanhammer
 
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