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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT2| Only Game Where You Can Beat Up The Duck Hunt Dog
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Goddamnit man, what the hell is going on with me today?
Welp, didn't have a second jump
Professor Beef
Banned
rare footage of greninja talking to sakurai
you gotta join us with the regulars here!I get my ass kicked as well
I'm really enjoying them though, I feel like there's one inch away of getting a nice win
Professor Beef
Banned
Looking to play smash right now
pls don't make me have to go to anther's ladder
pls don't make me have to go to anther's ladder
Maybe it's some input lag? I'm South America so there is a bit. For example karst and I can't play at all.
I'm playing really on point though
If we get a 4th I'd do doubles!
Are you not landing tippers left and right?
Is it lagging for you? Boney and I don't have the best connection, but I thought our matches a few days ago was pretty smooth.
It's as if for every four actions I take, three of them don't register and the one that does is an air dodge into the ground. I never air dodge low to the ground ever. :lol
This also means I can't react to anything at all. Haha
And then there's all these blasted SDs when I go for edgeguards.
This also means I can't react to anything at all. Haha
And then there's all these blasted SDs when I go for edgeguards.
It's the usual fare.Are you not landing tippers left and right?
Is it lagging for you? Boney and I don't have the best connection, but I thought our matches a few days ago was pretty smooth.
Poor azure keeps sding though
Azure if you're having so much trouble you can play dr. Beef. No need to get frustrated with the game
I don't mind
Those dancing blades
Sorry man, I honestly hate getting like this plus I dislike not playing against or finishing sets with friends.
We'll try again another time.
Edit: Would anyone else like to try?
you could just be having an off day today. It happens. Though you should try to play more, so that it happens less often.
I find that if the connection isn't super solid it's difficult for me to play compared to other fighting games because of the nature of the game. Depending on what character you play most of your actions will be heavily read based.
I'll play.
I find that if the connection isn't super solid it's difficult for me to play compared to other fighting games because of the nature of the game. Depending on what character you play most of your actions will be heavily read based.
I'll play.
No problemo, I enjoyed them a lot though, I feel like you were really close of tipping everything in your favor a bunch of times.
Let's do it again some time!
TruSpindash
Member
I was debating if I wanted to use Super Speed or Reflect, but I stuck with Super Speed just because I have a bit of trouble switching back and forth between the two. Like I played a Megaman where I opted to use Reflect but their were a few times during the match I would try to get back on the stage with Super Speed but would just throw out a Reflect. Might just be something I need to learn to get over though. And yeah, I was trying to get a hold of the gyro a few times, but input error lead to me throwing out Smash attacks instead of dash grabbing it, another thing I need to work on. Thanks for the advice!
I'm free tonight and pretty much every evening for the rest of the week. Just let me now when your free to play our matches. And yeah, its all for fun, no reason to take it too seriously.
Saw this video back when it came out, yeah there were many many missed fortress opportunities there. Missed opportunities in general. I didn't feel like Ixis knew the matchup all that well. I think more defensive play would have helped. That said, don't underestimate Kirby vs Bowser, Kirby's short hopped fair beats bowser's jab and tilts, and certain moves like his dtilt seem to have more range than Bowser's. His fair can essentially wall Bowser out, and he has the mobility to punish flame breath so that isn't necessarily the answer. Also, that dair into the ground is basically a big combo starter which leads me into-
I think some jumping is necessary in the Kirby matchup. Most characters in this game are at an advantage when they're below their enemy, but there are a few that are at an advantage just above also, like DDD, Kirby, Jiggs etc. The worst place to be as Bowser is on the ground with Kirby jumping just above you - too high for a diagonal ftilt, too far away horizontally for a usmash. Utilt is asking to be punished. In this scenario, Kirby prepares himself for a dair into Bowser, which has no lag as he hits the ground. Bowser has two options - move back and give up ground or jump to intercept with a nair/fair/bair. Fortress will not beat dair, and good luck beating his followup (usually a grab) with a timed OOS fortress afterwards. Odds are he knows when his dair ends better than you do.
A good Kirby player will put you in this situation often, and there's only so much stage space to retreat. When you jump to intercept either a) you get the hit b) you trade (unlikely against dair, possible against fair) or c) you get hit with dair anyway, but in the air where you can start to DI out of it and make followups harder. Kirby can really punish a character that doesn't want to jump.
Now, idle jumping, yeah, that shouldn't be done much with Bowser. There's an intimidation factor, but up close if the opponent knows Bowser's aerials only cancel if done immediately from a short hop it's just going to get him punished. And of course, like many matchups I imagine this becomes a bit different with dash slash on.
Japanese players only have themselves to blame for the Greninja nerfs. If they were more lukewarm on the character and didn't create combo videos making him look OP Greninja probably wouldn't have been weakened like he has. That said, after viewing this video he obviously needs to be nerfed again.
Actually I've come across a couple good Greninjas on FG and while he's quick that's about all. The higher tiers are more than just quick, they hit hard. He needs more power, or range, or something... That said his neutral b is fine as it is now.
Maybe, but no realistic change to his neutral b is going to make the character fundamentally better. They need to change the power/range on his normals for that. They could start by making some moves like his bair stay out longer.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
We haven't played in awhile! Let's do it!
Edit: whoops! Looks like you found someone! Anyone else wanna do a few?
Oh also, gonna be looking for 2v2s tonight probably! Wayfarer's coming over later
was playing anthers, i'm still around if you still wanna play
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Sure! Let's do a few!
want me to host or will you?
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Absolutely no preference.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Always has, always will. Like Dinns Fire, it's part of the charm!
Oh man,, I can't believe I wasn't invincible! Nicely done!
Always has, always will. Like Dinns Fire, it's part of the charm!
Oh man,, I can't believe I wasn't invincible! Nicely done!
Haha, thanks. Realized I stole the ledge.
Karsticles
Member
I don't agree with Kirby's dair being impossible to punish. Kirby has to choose to:Saw this video back when it came out, yeah there were many many missed fortress opportunities there. Missed opportunities in general. I didn't feel like Ixis knew the matchup all that well. I think more defensive play would have helped. That said, don't underestimate Kirby vs Bowser, Kirby's short hopped fair beats bowser's jab and tilts, and certain moves like his dtilt seem to have more range than Bowser's. His fair can essentially wall Bowser out, and he has the mobility to punish flame breath so that isn't necessarily the answer. Also, that dair into the ground is basically a big combo starter which leads me into-
I think some jumping is necessary in the Kirby matchup. Most characters in this game are at an advantage when they're below their enemy, but there are a few that are at an advantage just above also, like DDD, Kirby, Jiggs etc. The worst place to be as Bowser is on the ground with Kirby jumping just above you - too high for a diagonal ftilt, too far away horizontally for a usmash. Utilt is asking to be punished. In this scenario, Kirby prepares himself for a dair into Bowser, which has no lag as he hits the ground. Bowser has two options - move back and give up ground or jump to intercept with a nair/fair/bair. Fortress will not beat dair, and good luck beating his followup (usually a grab) with a timed OOS fortress afterwards. Odds are he knows when his dair ends better than you do.
A good Kirby player will put you in this situation often, and there's only so much stage space to retreat. When you jump to intercept either a) you get the hit b) you trade (unlikely against dair, possible against fair) or c) you get hit with dair anyway, but in the air where you can start to DI out of it and make followups harder. Kirby can really punish a character that doesn't want to jump.
Now, idle jumping, yeah, that shouldn't be done much with Bowser. There's an intimidation factor, but up close if the opponent knows Bowser's aerials only cancel if done immediately from a short hop it's just going to get him punished. And of course, like many matchups I imagine this becomes a bit different with dash slash on.
Japanese players only have themselves to blame for the Greninja nerfs. If they were more lukewarm on the character and didn't create combo videos making him look OP Greninja probably wouldn't have been weakened like he has. That said, after viewing this video he obviously needs to be nerfed again.
Actually I've come across a couple good Greninjas on FG and while he's quick that's about all. The higher tiers are more than just quick, they hit hard. He needs more power, or range, or something... That said his neutral b is fine as it is now.
1) Use the move on top of you, and then you can punish him before he lands.
2) Use the move inside of your shield, and then you should have Fortress'd before he got that deep.
I do agree that Bowser should fair Kirby sometimes, just to keep him hesitant to approach.
Kirby's fair is easy to punish if you know how to play Bowser against floaties.
Every time they jump, you need to dash into them and shield. They can either float away (return to the neutral) or attack. If they attack, they won't be able to regain their spacing enough to be safe from Fortress. Bowser should play what I call "aggressive defense" against aerial characters - run under them and shield to force situations that you can punish.Yes, if you stand and try to space Kirby out, you will be beaten. This guy made the mistake of playing the spacing game with Bowser. Bowser is great at spacing, but not against aerial characters. He needs that aggressive defense. Use spacing against grounded characters, like Captain Falcon and Falco.
Kirby should also not be able to punish Fire Breath if you are using it properly.
The only matchups that feel super bad to me these days as a Bowser player are:
1) Custom Villager (goddamn sprout - nerf it!)
2) Megaman (Blackmage makes me feel helpless)
Nothing else really scares me in this game. That doesn't mean the matchup is easy, but it feels manageable.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Can't believe it does as much damage as normal! Does it do even a bit more like Metal Blade?
Er, not z dropping specifically but using it as an item.
I think it does the same amount
Good games. I usually use custom Olimar, so it took me a few matches to adjust to the regular one.
You won some of those, so I don't think you were playing poorly. I thought you were playing well with Greninja and Pit. :x
Some of the setups and followups you were doing with Greninja were pretty cool lol. Marth just has too many shortcomings in this game though.
Also, you kept going for the same getup option a lot of the time which made it easy for me to just charge smash attacks and hit you with Olimar. You definitely want to be mixing up your movement more as well and just moving around more in general because I kept reading where you were going and got lots of grabs on you. Combined with the Pikmin latching onto you and Olimar's followups after a grab you gave me lots of opportunities to rack up lots of damage.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
It's cool, I'm no stranger to flubbed inputs. ;;
Professor Beef
Banned
Sprout doesn't need nerfing because it already removes a tool from his warcrate.
EDIT: Actually it removes 2.
EDIT: Actually it removes 2.
I don't agree with Kirby's dair being impossible to punish. Kirby has to choose to:
1) Use the move on top of you, and then you can punish him before he lands.
2) Use the move inside of your shield, and then you should have Fortress'd before he got that deep.
I do agree that Bowser should fair Kirby sometimes, just to keep him hesitant to approach.
Kirby's fair is easy to punish if you know how to play Bowser against floaties.
Yes, if you stand and try to space Kirby out, you will be beaten. This guy made the mistake of playing the spacing game with Bowser. Bowser is great at spacing, but not against aerial characters. He needs that aggressive defense. Use spacing against grounded characters, like Captain Falcon and Falco.
Kirby should also not be able to punish Fire Breath if you are using it properly.
The only matchups that feel super bad to me these days as a Bowser player are:
1) Custom Villager (goddamn sprout - nerf it!)
2) Megaman (Blackmage makes me feel helpless)
Nothing else really scares me in this game. That doesn't mean the matchup is easy, but it feels manageable.
I'll keep your strategy in mind.
In regards to fortresses though, I've played against a great Kirby and believe me, I tried all the fortresses I could without success, match after match. Kirby's dair autocancels when he reaches the ground if he starts it at a certain height. There is no time between dair hitboxes ending and Kirby throwing out new ones or grabbing you. The dair hitboxes continue even while his feet are already through the ground, even though it looks like he should have landed already. Like I said, there might be a very small moment for a frame-perfect OOS fortress but good luck finding it, especially given that Kirby can buffer his grab while Bowser cannot with fortress. Kirby's dair when started at the proper height is just like being caught in Yoshi's dair, except it doesn't launch you on the last hit and has no lag afterwards. If he's allowed you start it while you're shielded you've already lost - and should expect to catch at least 20% if not 30+ just off the grab he'll get you with even if you shield the whole dair. There's a reason dair is Kirby's bread and butter in this game.
I'm not saying he's top 5 worst matchups for Bowser or anything like that, but don't sleep on Kirby. He's underused probably because he has some bad high tier matchups, but against other mid-tiers he can be surprisingly dangerous.
And yeah, Mega Man and trip sapling are rough. I feel like I've figured out the Yoshi matchup but haven't gotten enough playtime to use my new tactics... I just wish there were more Diddys around. Maybe after the patch it won't matter as much though. If you don't find Rosalina to be problematic, I'd love to see a replay of you vs Nabster and see what you're up to....
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Bowser is a conflicting character. Sometimes everything goes well, but being a heavy character he has some depressingly bad matchups. Too hard to stick with him.
Who's looking to play?
Who's looking to play?
Me me me me
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Straight up bodied. Good night, sweet Game and Watch.
dragonlife
Member
Karsticles
Member
It removes two mediocre tools that are hard to acquire for one incredible and matchup-breaking tool. I just think it should hit Villager and the opponent so it can't be camped on so easily.
I've played lots of Kirby players, and I always punish it just fine.
Nabster usually beats me, but I think he would agree that our matches are usually close. The only real issue I have with Rosalina is that her gimps are crazy good and easy to do. Fire Breath is a great tool here - burn it all just to get more damage on Luma.
I've never played a Yoshi that made me feel helpless. Ditto for Diddy Kong.
Every time I watch a Bowser play at a tournament, though, I feel like Fortress is being used a tenth as often as it should be.
Just a few bad matchups - it's pretty bearable.
If things feel bipolar for you, it's usually because you are making reads that you haven't earned yet. More than any other character, Bowser needs to pay attention to how his opponent likes to tech. TRAIN your opponent how to tech. Did they tech toward you? Fortress that roll and send them away. Are they sitting and waiting to get-up attack? Run right up and Bowser Bomb through the attack. Did your opponent tech away? Great, you've trained your opponent! Now run through them when they are on the ground and Bowser Bomb as they get up.
If you can't train your opponent, Bowser becomes much more difficult to win with because your play becomes more conservative. Until you know your opponent, your entire gameplay should really just be:
-Fire Breath
-Jab
-Fortress
If I am figuring a new opponent out, I don't use anything but these moves. I don't even throw new opponents often, because it is a risk!
Space with jab and Fire Breath, Fortress to punish small mistakes, and that's your entire game. Incorporate throws when you get a sense for what your opponent likes to do in various situations. Bowser Bomb when the opponent makes big mistakes, or when you are so inside your opponent's head that you can get hard reads. Ftilt mostly out of pivots, because it isn't as safe as the jab. Dtilt...whenever you need to punish ledge hogging, and that's pretty much it.
Fsmash on super hard reads because it is so slow. Dsmash almost never. Usmash whenever someone is above you and you want to remind them that's a bad idea. Utilt when you need a safer usmash, basically.
Nair against players good at air dodging to punish. Bair for KOs. Fair for aerial chasing and gimping. Dair to let your opponent know you shouldn't chase turtles.
You can beat most players by just using the three moves above, though, combined with grabs. Anything else in Bowser's repertoire is unsafe and should be used sparingly. I don't even bother with grabs unless I have initiative or my opponent is being so annoyingly defensive that I have to go in. Bowser's game is getting attacked, not attacking. ;-)
Now I'm rambling, so I will stop.
Oh actually at that point, I was testing different get ups from the ledge for something (how fast I could neutral get up and shield to beat Olimar's fsmash), but the rolls into the stage were definitely me turning my brain off after a while haha.
I would have no problems baiting out and getting around grabs if all of Olimar's attacks didn't look like "all of the Pikmin everywhere" all the time. Haha. I couldn't tell what was a fsmash/Pikmin toss/Grab after a certain amount of time.
I can't quit Marth/Pit, they're still my favorite Smash characters overall. Pit I feel can compete albeit he isn't getting anything for free. Marth is legit just my understanding of spacing transferring through the 4 games and my ability to read though. It's rough but somehow it's also really satisfying.
Zero Suit Samus is still incredible but I just don't pick her often enough for whatever reason to be really consistent with her. Greninja just clicked with me this past week and I'm doing all manners of craziness that really makes me LOVE this dude. I know you liked the instant Hydro Pumps off the ground to shoot a small blast of water and alter your trajectory out of high air throws/launches and mess with your air dodge timings.
Tangent: Today has taught me that Marth/Bowser is such a scary matchup at low percents.
Seems like our experience with Kirby is different here. I could fault the Kirbys you've fought, my reaction time, online lag, etc., but for the time being I think we've reached an impasse. As far as I'm concerned dair is a frametrap, and the solution is not to get hit with it.
I wouldn't know about Diddy, obviously he's a strong character but I probably have a total of 15-20 minutes of experience fighting a good Diddy, not enough to work on the matchup. Hence why I wish there were more around. Now I'm playing him a little bit so hopefully that'll help.
dragonlife
Member
Anyone want to play regular 1v1?
Karsticles
Member
It'll be funny if, by next week, all 3 of our Bowser mains switch to different characters.
Though if Bowser gets a few fixes, I might stick with him over Mewtwo. At the very least, I'll keep him to show noobs how not to play this game.
Go get some customs!
direct_quote
Member
He can just play palutena...It'll be funny if, by next week, all 3 of our Bowser mains switch to different characters.
Though if Bowser gets a few fixes, I might stick with him over Mewtwo. At the very least, I'll keep him to show noobs how not to play this game.
Go get some customs!
dragonlife
Member
Isn't it really annoying to get them, though? Haha. Honestly, I just boot smash up these days and go straight to online; I rarely do SP stuff ;(Go get some customs!