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[~Devil Trigger~]

the quote says invincibility, but I think it means focus armour.

maybe we're all reading it wrong but i thought it meant on his way up on a run follow-up, he lost that invincibility

 

[Satyamdas]

Not surprising to see the Cammy players crying foul, but I'm sorry that TKCS shit needed to be nerfed because as it is it's borderline overpowered against a significant portion of the cast. Not every character has a reversal or a fast enough st. jab to get her off of you once she starts that shit.

Making it cost a meter to go for the instant dive kick as a part of her vortex is a great move in balancing her out against those who become completely locked down under her pressure. She still has plenty of options on the opponent's wakeup, she's still going to build meter crazy fast, this simply levels things a little bit in the up close wake up game for the other characters. Seriously, Cammy's vortex is still going to be right up there with Abel's and Akuma's as far as options and damage go, this just forces her to be a little less braindead about it. If her ability to TKCS was gone completely, I'd agree with the bitching, but this move is a stroke of genius towards balancing her.

Sim building less meter for Yoga Fires? Meh.

 

[FindMyFarms]

so Cammy is that one dimensional?(serious question)

All well designed fighting game characters are that one dimensional. You have a primary characteristic that defines your character, and supplementary tools that give you variations on how you want to play your style.

Grapplers have command grabs. Zoners have fireballs. Footsie characters pokes. Mishima's have electrics. Paul's have dash up 50/50's. Dive kick characters have Dive kicks.

Not surprising to see the Cammy players crying foul, but I'm sorry that TKCS shit needed to be nerfed because as it is it's borderline overpowered against a significant portion of the cast. Not every character has a reversal or a fast enough st. jab to get her off of you once she starts that shit.

Dhalsim can st. jab cammy out of divekicks everytime. It's NEVER too slow, not sure where your getting that from.

Also while you're at it, please tell me what her "vortex" is without divekicks, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Wiseblade]

maybe we're all reading it wrong but i thought it meant on his way up on a run follow-up, he lost that invincibility

That's just as bad!

 

[hitsugi]

Also while you're at it, please tell me what her "vortex" is without divekicks, I'd love to hear it.

It's her magical cross up cannon strike, followed by hurricane kick into untechable sweep knock down....

...wait.

Seriously, to say that Cammy has anything remotely close to Akumas "vortex" is just incorrect use of that word.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

All well designed fighting game characters are that one dimensional. You have a primary characteristic that defines your character, and supplementary tools that give you variations on how you want to play your style.

Grapplers have command grabs. Zoners have fireballs. Footsie characters pokes. Mishima's have electrics. Paul's have dash up 50/50's. Dive kick characters have Dive kicks.

thats my point, if that one tool the only thing worth going for 80% of the time, IMO thats bad. No not bad as an "not tournament viable" or "i cant win", but just boring design.

 

[Satyamdas]

Dhalsim can st. jab cammy out of divekicks everytime. It's NEVER too slow, not sure where your getting that from.

This is complete nonsense and you know it, she can do the dive kick low enough and meaty enough that his arm never even extends and he's already hit. Seriously dude, Sim's st. jab beats dive kick every time? Sim NEVER too slow? LOL

Next you are going to tell me this isn't a 7-3 matchup in Cammy's favor. Or is it just 7-3 just because the Sim players haven't figured out the wonders of st. jab yet?

Also while you're at it, please tell me what her "vortex" is without divekicks, I'd love to hear it.

That's the whole point, it is SLIGHTLY easing her vortex game up a bit, it is not removing it completely. You are acting as if TKCS is gone completely, when it is simply removing the ability to ABUSE it. She can still empty jump into throw/low attacks/dp, still crossup ambiguously, and STILL do a TKCS at the cost of one bar, which Cammy fills up stupid fast. It is a great tool that was a little too great, and they're dialing it back a notch. Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you guys were complaining about a crutch being removed from your gameplay.

 

[qcf x2]

Saty, you're plain wrong on this one. I'm taking these changes with a grain of salt, as the game is incomplete. But to suggest tkcs is broken, a crutch, needs to be removed? All ludicrous. Suggesting she has an elite (or even solid) vortex without it is even more incorrect. There are far more troublesome, safe and easy to execute moves in the game, so that they choose to remove this one is odd.

You know if they removed Sim's teleport, wait...made it EX only...you would be spazzing out.

Am I crying over tkcs being gone? No, idgaf. The utility and execution barrier made it fun to use, but if they fuck up her character, I'll just drop her from my roster. But who knows, maybe they give her a quick/comboable overhead and buff her other specials, since they're pretty much ass w/o a "jump in" (tkcs) and we know how much Capcom believes in jumping.

 

[cHaotix8]

lawl at the cammy talk. Just mash jab. Hopefully she'll get her instant dive kicks back. I wish people would stop crying about things and instead would learn how to combat them.

Glad to see the Dudley buffs. Depending on what you can link after EX ducking and how fast the startup is on his cr. RH, he has the potential to be top 10 easy I'd think. Air to air knockdown on RH is crazy as well (wonder if it'll work on neutral too). The Guile, Shoto and Sim matchups should be much easier now but it still doesn't really help against Vega and Honda.

Zangief looks like he's been given some pretty scary stuff. EX green hand creates a whole new mixup game if it really is +2 on hit. If you block, you get SPD'd, backdash is greenhaned, throw out a normal and you get counter hit for another combo, or jump and you get Ultra II'd. That's gonna be pretty tough to deal with.

Fuck Honda and Blanka.

 

[hitsugi]

Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you guys were complaining about a crutch being removed from your gameplay.

You're complaining about something that makes a match up unfavorable for your main. TKCS IS gone. Now it is EX-TKCS which takes a bar, which would also make it more predictable, limit uses, etc.

To say that "She can still empty jump into throw/low attacks" is hilarious.. Who DOESN'T have that? You might as well say she can still block

 

[Wandering Leopard]

With all the talk of st.jab beating instant cannon I don't remember seeing too much of that when Sako was playing GodsGarden. But maybe it can only be done at a certain range or it's just too risky.

 

[qcf x2]

thats my point, if that one tool the only thing worth going for 80% of the time, IMO thats bad. No not bad as an "not tournament viable" or "i cant win", but just boring design.

While I agree in principle, that would require Capcom fixing just about the entire game, since EVERY character has a simple general strategy. I.E. Bison cr lk, lk scissors. Guile sonic boom spam. Gief post knockdown mixup. Sim teleport block direction mixup. Your avatar. Etc. Cammy's tkcs is like that, except if you fuck up your execution, you're done for.

 

[Satyamdas]

I'm not wrong, and you're not wrong, qcf. These are opinions, and I have no doubt they all have validity.

The point you guys don't seem to realize is that she can still do TKCS, it just costs a bar now. Without this change she absolutely murders a lot of characters on their wakeup for fucking FREE. You can't tell me that Cammy on top of Sim on his wakeup is not broken. Absolutely braindead pressure that is about as safe as it gets. Now that it costs a bar for one of her options, he will have a little better chance at getting away and resetting things. Boo fucking hoo.

You know if they removed Sim's teleport, wait...made it EX only...you would be spazzing out.

This is not analagous to the Cammy change in the slightest.

 

[cHaotix8]

With all the talk of st.jab beating instant cannon I don't remember seeing too much of that when Sako was playing GodsGarden. But maybe it can only be done at a certain range or it's just too risky.

The only people that would know how to deal with that are players that actually own super and play against Cammy online. The way the scene is in japan, that percentage of players if very low. Hell, when I was there they had one console setup at an arcade. I was beasting on players with my scrubby Dudley who I KNEW were better at me.

The point you guys don't seem to realize is that she can still do TKCS, it just costs a bar now. Without this change she absolutely murders a lot of characters on their wakeup for fucking FREE. You can't tell me that Cammy on top of Sim on his wakeup is not broken. Absolutely braindead pressure that is about as safe as it gets. Now that it costs a bar for one of her options, he will have a little better chance at getting away and resetting things. Boo fucking hoo.

All I see is whining. It's just bad when she gets in, that's how matchups go. If you have that much trouble keeping her off of you, don't let her get in to begin with. Or pick another character.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Ok as a Ryu player I say they should increase recovery on Sim's st. HP because it's a bad match up for my character. His most damaging stretchy limb shouldn't be so easily abused, especially against his best match ups. Make it as bad as Seth's far st. HP and we can call it a day.

 

[Satyamdas]

You're complaining about something that makes a match up unfavorable for your main. TKCS IS gone. Now it is EX-TKCS which takes a bar, which would also make it more predictable, limit uses, etc.

To say that "She can still empty jump into throw/low attacks" is hilarious.. Who DOESN'T have that? You might as well say she can still block

Nonsense. TKCS = Cammy's only option ever. Gotcha. I guarantee Sako is shrugging his shoulders at this news like, "Whatever". He will still beast on people with this new F-Tier Cammy, because he is not a 1-trick pony. Which I am not claiming that guys in this thread are, but by their response so far it makes them look like one-dimensional players relying on a crutch. Funny how I have more faith that Cammy players can still beast with her even with this nerf, than they do!!

 

[XenoRaven]

Dhalsim player complaining about wake up pressure. :lol

 

[Satyamdas]

All I see is whining. It's just bad when she gets in, that's how matchups go. If you have that much trouble keeping her off of you, don't let her get in to begin with. Or pick another character.

Then you are reading me all wrong, chum! I'm celebrating, not whining! And I toast with the bitter tears of the Cammy brigade.

 

[AZ Greg]

As a Vega player, my thoughts on TKCS nerf: Suck it down Cammy!

Though I have to admit, I didn't know about the gdlk ability of st.jab! But hey, if it's that easy to stop then this shouldn't be a big loss for Cammy.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

The only people that would know how to deal with that are players that actually own super and play against Cammy online. The way the scene is in japan, that percentage of players if very low. Hell, when I was there they had one console setup at an arcade. I was beasting on players with my scrubby Dudley who I KNEW were better at me.

Ok makes sense but are Capcom really that stupid to not listen to western fans, anyway I think I need to try it out with my Rose.

 

[Spiderjericho]

I agree with Rice. They should slow down Sim's standing hard punch.

And Vega should lose his claw and mask in five hits. His ultras should be done by performing a 720 then violet zig zag with the stick.

Honestly, the game doesn't come out until DECEMBER, so we have quite a bit of time before we know what final changes are being made to the characters.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

It really sucks that cammy loses TKCS, I guess Capcom didn't intend for her to be played the way she is being played. Is this a lame reason? Probably. Guess we gotta wait and see since it seems a lot of characters are losing tools, for all we know this could be more balanced than super was if these changes are real.

 

[BitchTits]

Ok as a Ryu player I say they should increase recovery on Sim's st. HP because it's a bad match up for my character. His most damaging stretchy limb shouldn't be so easily abused, especially against his best match ups. Make it as bad as Seth's far st. HP and we can call it a day.

Ryu doesn't really have anything to complain about, ever.

 

[cHaotix8]

I don't see them taking it away for good. My guess is that they're just looking at the data bassed off the changes and see how characters fare. I could see a lot of the damage nerfs staying but radical nerfs like TKCS and gief changes may be different. There's still a long time till December.

 

[DR2K]

It really sucks that cammy loses TKCS, I guess Capcom didn't intend for her to be played the way she is being played. Is this a lame reason? Probably. Guess we gotta wait and see since it seems a lot of characters are losing tools, for all we know this could be more balanced than super was if these changes are real.

They didn't intend for her to be played that way so they kept it in SSFIV? Losing iCS is just as damning as Gen losing mk into hands.

 

[dragonballjoseph]

Getting rid of TKCS would be dumb if in the final build. The only people complaining are crouch techers who don't know how to do anything else.

Edit: Hey. I got the 10,000th post. ^_^

 

[hikarutilmitt]

They didn't intend for her to be played that way so they kept it in SSFIV? Losing iCS is just as damning as Gen losing mk into hands.

Cammy has enough options and gains meter fast enough that losing TKCS without meter shouldn't mess with anyone playing her outside of that one device.

 

[Wiseblade]

A lot of these changes just seem like:

1) do something drastic
2) gauge consumer reaction
3) adjust accordingly
4) ...
5) profit?

 

[Corky]

What I don't understand is how random some of these changes seem.

 

["God's Beard!"]

A lot of these changes just seem like:

1) do something drastic
2) gauge consumer reaction
3) adjust accordingly
4) ...
5) profit?

Then why does Gen still suck?

 

[Rice-Eater]

Ryu doesn't really have anything to complain about, ever.

Just ignore that I play Ryu and focus on the nerf I mentioned. I'm trying to help every poor bastard here who has ever been beaten by only 2 or 3 buttons. It's crazy how Sim can recover so fast from whiffed st. HP and still anti-air jump ins cleanly without trading most of the time.

 

[Wiseblade]

Then why does Gen still suck?

Because Ono really hates him?

 

[Wiseblade]

Just ignore that I play Ryu and focus on the nerf I mentioned. I'm trying to help every poor bastard here who has ever been beaten by only 2 or 3 buttons. It's crazy how Sim can recover so fast from whiffed st. HP and still anti-air jump ins cleanly without trading most of the time.

You were serious? I thought you were mocking people cheering about their counters getting nerfed.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Just ignore that I play Ryu and focus on the nerf I mentioned. I'm trying to help every poor bastard here who has ever been beaten by only 2 or 3 buttons. It's crazy how Sim can recover so fast from whiffed st. HP and still anti-air jump ins cleanly without trading most of the time.

Uh... what? Everyone in the cast has something to deal with sim's HP. :lol

 

[Rice-Eater]

You were serious? I thought you were mocking people cheering about their counters getting nerfed.

I was doing both, I mocked but at the same time I want Sim to have more recovery on his st. HP. I've been holding this inside for a very long time. Besides these changes are there to please the scrubs right? Well add me and my complaint to that list

 

[Satyamdas]

Getting rid of TKCS would be dumb if in the final build. The only people complaining are crouch techers who don't know how to do anything else.

Or who don't have EX get out of jail free cards.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

They didn't intend for her to be played that way so they kept it in SSFIV? Losing iCS is just as damning as Gen losing mk into hands.

If they do take it out, then obviously they don't want her being played that way. Same thing goes for Gens mk into hands as stupid as it may have been.

 

[Spiderjericho]

I don't see them taking it away for good. My guess is that they're just looking at the data bassed off the changes and see how characters fare. I could see a lot of the damage nerfs staying but radical nerfs like TKCS and gief changes may be different. There's still a long time till December.

This.

It's a location test. The game doesn't come out until December. Reading about the loc tests in OG SFIV. They said Zangief's green hand didn't knock down and then eventually changed to what we have now.

Not to say the final changes might not be ridiculous but they're obviously getting player feedback and observing data.

 

[Satyamdas]

Sim does not recover from st. hp fast enough to anti air a jump in unless you are jumping as his arms are fully returned to his body. You whiff a st. hp w/ Sim and you will get blown up by a thousand different moves. For fucks sake, Daigo is now sweeping whiffed Sim st. hp. The recovery and hitbox on that move is pretty bad on a whiff for Sim, as it extends past his hands' physical location and it stays out there long enough to be sweeped on reaction.

 

[dragonballjoseph]

Or who don't have EX get out of jail free cards.

Or, you know, press jab.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

While I agree in principle, that would require Capcom fixing just about the entire game, since EVERY character has a simple general strategy. I.E. Bison cr lk, lk scissors. Guile sonic boom spam. Gief post knockdown mixup. Sim teleport block direction mixup. Your avatar. Etc. Cammy's tkcs is like that, except if you fuck up your execution, you're done for.

im not saying no one should'nt have a main approach, but they should'nt be about that ONE approach the majority of the time.

Yes there are the extreme characters like Sim, Gief, Fuerte...clearly designed to do one or 2 things very well but have clear giant holes. But there's no reason why a character like Gen with 2 sets of moves and specials, should rely on one fucking offensive tactic 80% of the time.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Ok makes sense but are Capcom really that stupid to not listen to western fans

They thought American tournament gen players performed mk.hands using turbo. Feedback is definitely JP only.

 

[Wiseblade]

Sim does not recover from st. hp fast enough to anti air a jump in unless you are jumping as his arms are fully returned to his body. You whiff a st. hp w/ Sim and you will get blown up by a thousand different moves. For fucks sake, Daigo is now sweeping whiffed Sim st. hp. The recovery and hitbox on that move is pretty bad on a whiff for Sim, as it extends past his hands' physical location and it stays out there long enough to be sweeped on reaction.

Yeah, but trying to stay at that range is a sure fire way to put yourself in the corner. And with air tatsu escape gone...

Spoiler

I thing Sim's HP is fine the way it is.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

im not saying no one should'nt have a main approach, but they should'nt be about that ONE approach the majority of the time.

Yes there are the extreme characters like Sim, Gief, Fuerte...clearly designed to do one or 2 things very well but have clear giant holes. But there's no reason why a character like Gen with 2 sets of moves and specials, should rely on one fucking offensive tactic 80% of the time.

With this cammy nerf, you're always going to have the rufus comparison.

 

[Rice-Eater]

I know that, pretty much predicting a limb is the only way to punish it. I don't think it should be that good. It's a normal, not a fireball. Not that I think it should be that bad either, just Seth bad if that's not asking for too much.

But I'm not going to get what I want so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully the news about Sim gaining less meter from fireballs is true. That would help a little.

 

[Satyamdas]

Yeah, but trying to stay at that range is a sure fire way to put yourself in the corner. And with air tatsu escape gone...

Spoiler

I thing Sim's HP is fine the way it is.

I agree that it's fine, and I'm sure you know it was nerfed in range from vanilla. That makes it a little bit harder to zone fireballers, but I understand the reason they changed it and kept it movin.

 

[SUPARSTARX]

I'm hyped up for the new Seth

 

[Dr.Hadji]

Ok, does Ibuki have some sort of abnormal range on her grab so is Makoto just super grabbable? My sweeps, c-mps, and f-mp were getting grabbed like crazy last night.

 

[Rice-Eater]

I'm hyped up for the new Seth

Seth is one of my secondaries but I still hate the bastard. But with all his nerfs I think he needs to be bumped up to 850 health like Akuma now. He still has a lot of tools, but his damage output is low, some of his moves weakened since Vanilla, and one his key defensive tool is gone now. So giving him more health would be a fair thing to do since it'll be easier to get in on him.

 

[SUPARSTARX]

Seth is one of my secondaries but I still hate the bastard. But with all his nerfs I think he needs to be bumped up to 850 health like Akuma now. He still has a lot of tools, but his damage output is low, some of his moves weakened since Vanilla, and one his key defensive tool is gone now. So giving him more health would be a fair thing to do since it'll be easier to get in on him.

He's definitely going to get some adjustments to make up for the new changes. Probably more stun and a slight stamina bump.