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Super Street Fighter 4 |OT2| BACK OF THE BUS, SAGAT!
- Thread starter EviLore
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Killa Sasa
Member
Honestly, I'm kinda more surprised at the amount of people applauding changes that make the game plainer. If you have diverse, good characters, there are going to be a handful of shit matchups. Especially for people with extreme strengths (Sim's zoning, Gief's up close game).
And this game's worst matchups are HARDLY unwinnable. They just take work.
I hate Seth with a passion, I shit on Rog's gameplay design all the time and I despise Fei. All those characters give me trouble, but rather than see them nerfed because they give me a hard time, I'd rather overcome it myself. Every character should have a strength that makes them scary. Cammy's is her dive kick control. Ryu's is jack of all trades/dp fadc, Ken's is his wicked ground game/frame traps/dp/step kick madness, etc. Being able to do effective things doesn't make a character broken. Sure it can get out of hand and frustraiting sometimes, but this engine is so confining that the worst thing they came up with is Vanilla Sagat, aka the worst (not even consensus) top tier ever.
No matchup in this game is unwinnable, nothing is good enough to make it unwinnable. It definitely tilts matchup to matchup, but there are no ST-bad matchups in here.
Was I happy to see Sagat nerfed? A little, but moreso because they didn't buff anyone up to his old level. I'd rather have a game full of fun Vanilla Sagat characters than below average Vanilla Guile characters. Kicks the intensity up. A lot. Giving new tools to those that need it is always better than taking some away from the top (or just those that can shake up a handful of matchups). See Gen and Super Sagat (taking away st lk cancel was dumb before and it still is. That probably hurt just as much as the overdone damage nerf).
I'm afraid an already slow game would get even slower and less exciting. Running offense in this game with some characters is hard enough already when defense is rewarded so much.
In the end though, it's just a loke test but it would suck if any of the weird decisions in that version (yes including having Blanka ball that bad - nerf it a bit sure, but at his core he's supposed to be a BS character) make it all the way to print.
tl;dr - Good fun characters > Average, boring characters.
And this game's worst matchups are HARDLY unwinnable. They just take work.
I hate Seth with a passion, I shit on Rog's gameplay design all the time and I despise Fei. All those characters give me trouble, but rather than see them nerfed because they give me a hard time, I'd rather overcome it myself. Every character should have a strength that makes them scary. Cammy's is her dive kick control. Ryu's is jack of all trades/dp fadc, Ken's is his wicked ground game/frame traps/dp/step kick madness, etc. Being able to do effective things doesn't make a character broken. Sure it can get out of hand and frustraiting sometimes, but this engine is so confining that the worst thing they came up with is Vanilla Sagat, aka the worst (not even consensus) top tier ever.
No matchup in this game is unwinnable, nothing is good enough to make it unwinnable. It definitely tilts matchup to matchup, but there are no ST-bad matchups in here.
Was I happy to see Sagat nerfed? A little, but moreso because they didn't buff anyone up to his old level. I'd rather have a game full of fun Vanilla Sagat characters than below average Vanilla Guile characters. Kicks the intensity up. A lot. Giving new tools to those that need it is always better than taking some away from the top (or just those that can shake up a handful of matchups). See Gen and Super Sagat (taking away st lk cancel was dumb before and it still is. That probably hurt just as much as the overdone damage nerf).
I'm afraid an already slow game would get even slower and less exciting. Running offense in this game with some characters is hard enough already when defense is rewarded so much.
In the end though, it's just a loke test but it would suck if any of the weird decisions in that version (yes including having Blanka ball that bad - nerf it a bit sure, but at his core he's supposed to be a BS character) make it all the way to print.
tl;dr - Good fun characters > Average, boring characters.
FindMyFarms
Member
Grifter said:
Yeah! Remove honda's HHS!! :lol :lol
SouthernDragon
Member
Perhaps they should give the inputs 4-5 frames to activate mid-combo.
And more Gatling combos.
And more Gatling combos.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Grifter said:
any tips on getting it down from your friend? I tried to do it for about 1/2 hour and got it maybe half a dozen times . I don't know if 1 2 then slide 123 or 1 3 2 1 3 is better. suck at both.
Edit: Hazaa! I am a member now! (of course it has to be me posting how terrible I am at this game :lol )
Kadey said:
By that logic the fireball motion should be changed to the raging storm motion.
Sometimes, execution in a fighter is necessary. I get that. The key is having it not be unnecessarily hard, and making it so that someone who doesn't go to SRK can figure it out on their own.
At a certain point execution stops being fun and starts being frustrating. The last time Capcom got execution mostly right was Alpha 2.
Adding another bar isn't a bad idea though.
dragonballjoseph
Member
Long hair Ken! ^_^
Killa Sasa
Member
dragonballjoseph said:
Long hair Ken! ^_^
Yessssssssssssssssssssssssss ponytail
Return of the ultradouche hair cut. Def getting this one. :If real that is.
Wallach said:
SF2 had more ridiculous execution issues then SF4 has. It took HDR to open the game up to other people. Look at EVO where a dude out of nowhere won the whole thing with Gief. That wouldn't have happened if Sirlin hadn't eased the inputs in HDR. (then again, without HDR doing it, ST would be dead)
Execution and strategy have very little correlation.
Part of a fighting game is the time pressure. Making moves reasonable doesn't ruin that- it just allows more players to get to the fun part of the game a lot more quickly.
There are some tricks, you can slide 1 2 1 2 3,you can map HP on L1(instead of 3P) and press LP and then quickly slide 1 2 3 (L1), or you can map HP to L1 and L2 and quickly slide 1 2 3 (L1) (L2) pressing L2 with your thumb...MiniBossBattle said:
I used to piano but then I borrowed a PS3 and for some weird reason I couldn't piano anymore(I got only ex hands instead, it may be because I use a hori stick on the PS3) so I switched to slide(1 2 1 2 3 and 3 2 1 2 3 for kicks into hands) and semi slide(1, 2 and then slide 1 2 3) and I'm not going back to piano I guess. I couldn't piano 100% under heavy pressure(like on tourney finals), my hands got really stiff there so now I'm ok.
Edit: also I use my nails to slide, like a "claw" and sliding with the front of the nail("nail plate"), not just the tip...
arstal said:
On the contrary, I would want moves to be more reasonable, or at the very least obey some kind of standards.
Execution and strategy have plenty of correlation when both are required to defeat your opponent. I would prefer that execution was the lesser barrier of the two when deciding the outcome of a match between two people. I would also prefer that the execution requirements for characters were more similar.
FindMyFarms
Member
Imm0rt4l said:
It's true that they don't want things in when they take it out, unfortunately it's also true that they don't use sound logic or a clear understanding of the games mechanics when making their decisions.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Ken's mullet is glorious.
Wallach said:
You can have a game with high execution and zero real strategy- Examples: Hokuto, Fate: Unlimited Codes. This is the easiest group to find examples for.
You can have a game with high amounts of both: Guilty Gear, VF5.
You can have high strategy, (mostly) low execution games also: like Soul Calibur 1.
The two aren't really that intertwined.
low execution is relative- execution in even a simple fighter is daunting to newbies. The problem is most of your loudest voices on fighting game boards tend to push for high execution low strategy.
arstal said:
What I'm saying is, they are intertwined in that the higher the execution demands become, the lower potential chance there for a player to be able to even utilize strategy because the strategy itself is too hard for him to actually perform. It doesn't matter if the player understands the subtleties of high level strategy if he can never implement them. In that way they share a relationship.
What I was responding to was the request for more complexity and higher execution demands. That's something I don't think would do any good for this game.
LeMaximilian
Alligator F*ck House
Not gonna lie. I'm pretty fuckin amped to see Ken with long hair again...the outfit isn't horrible either. Imagine it in Red/Black >_>, imma have to start taking this game srsly again :lol
Inputs should be as lenient as possible without causing interference to other inputs, if done in a clean manner. For example, 95% of the time a Bison uses a teleport instead of an ultra- Guess what? YOU DID THE MOTION WRONG. For U1, you either didn't complete the entire motion, (back, forward, back, forward) or you didn't have charge.
On the other hand, if you're in a defensive crouch as Hakan and you try to do a slide (qcf + P), it gives you SPD like 9 times out of 10.
On the other hand, if you're in a defensive crouch as Hakan and you try to do a slide (qcf + P), it gives you SPD like 9 times out of 10.
Wallach said:
Ah, what I thought you said was a positive correlation, not a negative. I don't believe at the highest level there is a correlation, though at lower levels the correlation becomes increasingly negative.
That said, at sufficiently low levels (aka CvS2 EO) low execution can destroy strategy. Some moves need a long enough execution to be balanced, such as command grabs, which should be half-circle motions at least, if not f,hcf/b,hcb.
the shortcuts in SF4 are bad though, as they do interfere with other inputs.
Pop On Arrival
Banned
Do any of you guys know where all the top players hang out now? Went to big box and it was pretty slow yesterday, and I didnt really run into any good players. Hey hirose(?), that place in Akihabara was much more lively, but I didn't run into any decent people.
Also, 24 hour arcades with SF4, do they exist? Havent ran into one yet.
yeah, sorry about the vanilla talk in the ssf4 thread, but I really didn't know where else to ask.
Also, 24 hour arcades with SF4, do they exist? Havent ran into one yet.
yeah, sorry about the vanilla talk in the ssf4 thread, but I really didn't know where else to ask.
Pop On Arrival said:
Big Box was crazy hot around july-sep last year, all the top players went there and the hype was through the roof... before I went home in dec I rarely saw any of them anymore :/ Someone mentioned something about Shinjuku though, maybe Shinjuku Shibuya Sportsland?
There's a good one in Shinjuku I believe. I forgot where though, but there's usually good comp there. It's... sorry I forgot which one it was haha. Big Box is usually pretty empty. Mikado's nice if you like games other than Street Fighter. Definitely a great experience to go there while u're in Japan.Pop On Arrival said:
Big Box was empty this summer. My roommate and I went. We went like 4-5 days a week for about a month and saw maybe 1 grandmaster there.Ledsen said:
Shinjuku Shibuya Sportsland has been closed down. Now it's a pachinko parlor. Yeah, go ahead and cry about it. I know I did. =[
marathonfool
Member
vomit.jpgDartastic said:
Yes, and Cammy will still have OPTIONS on how to attack Dhalsim or anyone else on their wakeup. One (1) of those many OPTIONS will now cost one bar of EX. Her pressure is slightly less oppressive and automatic. It is not removing the definition of Cammy.FindMyFarms said:
My friend, this is what is known as hyperbole. I can understand and appreciate being confident in your game/ability (even though I lack confidence in mine), but I can't take this statement seriously. The changes might mean that Cammy is no longer so dominant for Sako that you are able to take some matches or rounds here and there from him, but I doubt very highly that even if the move were gone completely, that you would "destroy" Sako. That's really kinda hard to swallow. And if it DID mean that you were able to win some games against him where you otherwise would not be able to, how does that NOT speak to the change being an effective tweak towards balancing the game?FindMyFarms said:
Exactly, so why is having a 4 way mixup NOT considered a vortex again??? Now with this change, ONE (1) of her moves in that mixup needs a bar. She still has the 4 options, and without any bar she has 3. You can't tell me that this is somehow unfair to Cammy or ruins her as a character or defiles her definition. How often does Cammy have bar? All the time! Shit it feels like she starts the match with 2 stocks! She builds meter very fast, and will almost always have the option of going for the instant dive kick and characters will STILL have to fear her knocking them down, which means they will STILL fear going for the crouch tech, which means her pressure is still going to be severe and scary.FindMyFarms said:
I dunno, maybe I'm crazy but I thought they did a pretty good job of balancing the game from vanilla to super, and from the changes I've heard so far I think they've done an even better job from super to arcade. I see the direction they're taking the game in and I agree with it. Only thing I really want that I don't see happening is Rufus's Galactic Tornado being unsafe on block, and EX Snake Strike damage being toned way the fuck down.
I know you know your stuff, but this is just ridiculous hyperbole once again. The people who created this game don't have sound logic or a clear understanding of the very mechanics they created?!? But somehow you do??FindMyFarms said:
Seems to me a lot of the reaction so far is a gut emotional response rather than an objective view of how the changes would affect the game, which I can understand completely, even if I totally disagree. And looking back on my "celebrating with bitter tears" comments I realize that was uncalled for and stupid.
So to sum up: I apologize if I came off as a dick, I respect your skills and knowledge of the game, and I disagree completely with your views on the Cammy TKCS thing and Capcom's ability as developers. No hard feelings dude, happy street fighting!
sixteen-bit
Member
I think the biker Rufus outfit is fine. Sure there is buttcrack but in echange there is no happy trail.
bigmit3737
Member
Ken's long hair is cool....but that outfit sucks.
Wandering Leopard
Member
Acid08 said:
It's still early and the way Ono has been tweeting about Poison, Mika & Rolento; I wouldn't be suprised if there were more characters announced at TGS.
SouthernDragon
Member
God please no Mika
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