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[~Devil Trigger~]

Rekka and SA are faster only if they are close, and they are dead punishable if blocked close enough. Besides being fast, jagkick can be airborne, which makes it even tricker to deal with. And who would dumb enough to do focus if it's in the jab range? Everybody's jab x 2 or jab cancel into whatever breaks armor.

At the moment the problem of Adon's offensive game is he can push enemy into corner with MUCH less effort. All he does is:
1. get in
2. cr.jab x2, cr.strong
3. Blocked? jagkick. Hit? jag knee
4. repeat step 2

He may have a problem at the first step (get in) but it's highly arguable (fast jump, fast walk speed, st.rh). Plus his buggy wake up he's pretty much broken in this game.

Adon's cr. jabs are No where near as good as ALOT of characters, easily countered, good Adon's dont spam jabs.

And his DP is not that good either, its pretty normal outside of EX. As Makoto, Adon's one of the few chars i can play meaty tricks on relatively safe.

..and just for entertainment, do you seriously think Adon is the best in Super SF4 now?

 

[Axis]

1. People still use well spaced focus to deal with scissor kick in tournement.
2. All of those 3 moves don't do much damage while Jagkick does 130 at the moment (163 on CH).
3. Being able to land a techable knock down isn't much of an advantage.

I'm not saying there's NO answer to it. But most of the 'answers' aren't that efficient.

you're right, FP rekka doing 168 without CH(lp doing 148 without CH) isn't as much damage as jaguar kick...how silly. HK spiral arrow doing 140 isn't as much damage as jaguar kick either.


being able to land any knockdown is an advantage....UHHHHHHH WHUT?!?!?!?!!

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm more afraid of Adon's jump arc than anything else. I can't block crossups

 

[Axis]

only out of lk dp. you cant grab the rh one afaik

yeah, lk dp is able to be grabbed on startup...the other two have a couple of throw invulnerable frames but are grabbable after those since they don't have great startup time(i think it was 3 and 4 frames respectively for invulnerability but i can't remember where i read that from so i could be wrong...also a possibility he's airborne by then and can only be air grabbed but i haven't tested thoroughly)

 

[BotoxAgent]

Gamerbee is a smart player. End of story.

 

[_Xenon_]

Rekka is always faster (the slowest is 10 frames). Any smart Fei is spacing out Rekkas properly so that they're either unpunishable or very hard-to-punish

This is my point. I have no problem if jagkick is -4 on block because Adon has to space it. At the moment it's -3/-1/-1 (from SRK wiki) which means:

Jaguar Kick is -2 on block from a distance. Which means if he doesnt DP, you can simply use your 3f normal to bully him post JK. If he does it meaty...its -3. Which means you can SPD/command grab him.

Then what if my char doesn't have 3f jab or command grab?


BTW: In case people get confused about my thought on Gamerbee, I'm not saying Gamerbee is a scrub or something. He's good but I don't think he's Daigo / JW / Mago level good. If he's using his old main Akuma then I'm not sure he can still beat everybody.

 

[nycfurby]

I'm more afraid of Adon's jump arc than anything else. I can't block crossups

watch where he is before the jump
if he takes a step backward. its same side. not a crossup JUST WATCH HIS FEET. (after ur knocked down)
axis about the grabbing out of RH jaguar. possible but only in fucked up situation. normally it wont happen. it only happens to lk dp really

 

[nycfurby]

This is my point. I have no problem if jagkick is -4 on block because Adon has to space it. At the moment it's -3/-1/-1 (from SRK wiki) which means:

Then what if my char doesn't have 3f jab or command grab?

depends on matchup. you have to give me more info

 

[Axis]

Then what if my char doesn't have 3f jab or command grab?

then learn the matchup and stop whining about it. adon's not broken...as art said, gamerbee is broken. name another adon who is THAT good? it's not the character, it's the player...he's a beastly fucking akuma in vanilla sf4 as well

 

[Axis]

axis about the grabbing out of RH jaguar. possible but only in fucked up situation. normally it wont happen. it only happens to lk dp really

fair enough, just didn't know if a late tech would work against that so just wanted some clarity on it since you're way more knowledgeable about it than i am, thanks.

 

["God's Beard!"]

watch where he is before the jump
if he takes a step backward. its same side. not a crossup JUST WATCH HIS FEET. (after ur knocked down)
axis about the grabbing out of RH jaguar. possible but only in fucked up situation. normally it wont happen. it only happens to lk dp really

Yeah, I always get caught by his back and forth jumps. Thanks. I usually try to reset where I can with Dudley, so I don't worry too much about his wakeup time.

 

[Spiderjericho]

Was Xenon @ the Level-Up event yesterday? He's vehment about his Adon argument.

 

[USD]

This is my point. I have no problem if jagkick is -4 on block because Adon has to space it. At the moment it's -3/-1/-1 (from SRK wiki) which means:

Still comparing apples and oranges. Rekka is hit-confirmable, which puts it a different class than Jaguar Kick.

 

[_Xenon_]

depends on matchup. you have to give me more info

Juri vs Adon. Her close st.lk is 3f but it only hits low. ex pinwheel is 3f but you don't want to throw that left and right. Actually I feel much more comfortable when facing feilong than Adon.

Still comparing apples and oranges. Rekka is hit-confirmable, which puts it a different class than Jaguar Kick.

I don't get it. If it's not hit comfirmable then it's OK to be -3/-1/-1 on block? Then why does Blanka's rainbow ball suck so bad?

 

[nycfurby]

Juri vs Adon. Her close st.lk is 3f but it only hits low. ex pinwheel is 3f but you don't want to throw that left and right. Actually I feel much more comfortable when facing feilong than Adon.

I don't get it. If it's not hit comfirmable then it's OK to be -3/-1/-1 on block? Then why does Blanka's rainbow ball suck so bad?

lol im not gonna pretend i can help you on the matchup. i dont know juri at all. especially not enough to give u competent advice. sorry!

also rekkas in ssf4 are some bullshit just wanted to throw that out there lol

 

[Threi]

smh

 

[Lost Fragment]

Yeah Adon is good, but not overpowered. He definitely has his weaknesses. Jag tooth loses to like everything and lots of characters have answers to jag kick.

They are fixing it in the arcade release.

Says who? Loketests != final build.

 

[Axis]

smh

<3

 

[USD]

I don't get it. If it's not hit comfirmable then it's OK to be -3/-1/-1 on block? Then why does Blanka's rainbow ball suck so bad?

Because it's a different move with vastly different properties and different purposes.

also rekkas in ssf4 are some bullshit just wanted to throw that out there lol

Rekkas are godlike. Who can argue with half-screen push? Two sets and you're practically guaranteed to be in the corner. :lol

 

[abstract alien]

Also..adon is not broken in any way shape or form. Gamerbee is broken, thats pretty much it. The character has quite a few weaknesses which Gamerbee still works around.

This really should be the end of it right here. Simple, and full of truth.

 

[gutabo]

EDIT: Dang I thought I pressed "Submit"... this is going to be kinda late.

That's part of the problem. Honda also has a lot of REALLY good jump ins that not all of the cast can anti air. Then again, I don't think Honda is TOO bad, just needs a slight damage nerf.

What? Only j.MP is noteworthy, and even that one is pretty fair hitbox-wise(green vulnerable area inside red hitting area) compared with lots of other air attacks with HUGE re hitting areas way outside their green vulnerable areas, vertically speaking(that's what makes them hard to anti air). I've been doing the vidcaps for a while(will post them once I'm done doing them all) so if you need proof lemme know.

EDIT 2: _Xenon_, Juri having a bad matchup against adon(IF that's your point, I don't agree) =/= Adon's broken.

Like many have said before, it's Gamerbee that's broken.

 

[Axis]

EDIT: Dang I thought I pressed "Submit"... this is going to be kinda late.


What? Only j.MP is noteworthy, and even that one is pretty fair hitbox-wise(green vulnerable area inside red hitting area) compared with lots of other air attacks with HUGE re hitting areas way outside their green vulnerable areas, vertically speaking(that's what makes them hard to anti air). I've been doing the vidcaps for a while(will post them once I'm done doing them all) so if you need proof lemme know.

you use magneto..you <3 broken characters confirmed


cobra kai!

 

[USD]

I'm glad I play awesome characters, Fei's Flame Kick (MK and above, but who uses LK anyway?) beats Jaguar Kick clean on reaction. And because of the reverse DP motion, even if you react late, you still will most likely block the Kick anyway. :lol

 

[eissan]

Okay seems like we are talking about so I got some questions in regards to his matchup vs ryu.

1. JK that are on the ground cannot be focused so what's the best bet against it? block and try to punish?
2. JK in the air I need to reaction DP right or focused? How safe is the focus off jumping JK? guessing best DP to use is Mp DP?
3. Cross ups on him like arturo said should be safe but if over done he will just dash forward to escape what other types of pressure can be put on him? Cant go nuts on fireballs, can't really win in the air when he's got JK, df kinda works but have to make sure spacing is perfect. What else am I missing?

after watching momochi lose to gamerbee and then valle getting bodied by him I am trying to think of a way to fight against adon players but so far the only thing i can think of is to get a knockdown and then for the rest of the match dont let him out of my pressure which is hard to do.

oh just a quick edit: honda jumpins are free against ryu's hk with proper spacing but then most normal jumpins are free to his hk with proper spacing

 

[dragonballjoseph]

Adon is free to Bison

Spoiler

and Sakura :3

 

[Axis]

Okay seems like we are talking about so I got some questions in regards to his matchup vs ryu.

1. JK that are on the ground cannot be focused so what's the best bet against it? block and try to punish?
2. JK in the air I need to reaction DP right or focused? How safe is the focus off jumping JK? guessing best DP to use is Mp DP?
3. Cross ups on him like arturo said should be safe but if over done he will just dash forward to escape what other types of pressure can be put on him? Cant go nuts on fireballs, can't really win in the air when he's got JK, df kinda works but have to make sure spacing is perfect. What else am I missing?

after watching momochi lose to gamerbee and then valle getting bodied by him I am trying to think of a way to fight against adon players but so far the only thing i can think of is to get a knockdown and then for the rest of the match dont let him out of my pressure which is hard to do.

oh just a quick edit: honda jumpins are free against ryu's hk with proper spacing but then most normal jumpins are free to his hk with proper spacing

1. backdash->sweep? whiff isn't really safe at all and roo has a fast enough sweep to punish i would assume...or reaction dp like the actual GOOD canadian roo did in ssf4 teams
2. focus, you can crumple him all fucking day for free...otherwise you run the risk of a trade because of how awkward the hitbox can be at times.
3. try c.lk->whatever and c.lk->tick throw shenanigans on his wakeup to see if you can bait a dp after a knockdown or 2...then punish accordingly. make him play your game and everything should be fine

 

[Hitokage]

What? Only j.MP is noteworthy, and even that one is pretty fair hitbox-wise(green vulnerable area inside red hitting area) compared with lots of other air attacks with HUGE re hitting areas way outside their green vulnerable areas, vertically speaking(that's what makes them hard to anti air). I've been doing the vidcaps for a while(will post them once I'm done doing them all) so if you need proof lemme know.

Chun's sweep > Honda's air normals with the exception of j MP.
Chun's df LK > Honda's j MP and more.

 

[Brobzoid]

link to gamerbee v valle first to ten?

 

[TheSeks]

EVERY CHARACTER IS LOW TIER.

Capcom needs to nerf Gamerbee, Daigo, Justin Wong, *goes down the list* so us casual players have a chance against them with our characters.

 

[OmnipotentO]

link to gamerbee v valle first to ten?

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10324893

 

[Axis]

Chun's sweep > Honda's air normals with the exception of j MP.
Chun's df LK > Honda's j MP and more.

df.lk still gets beaten by well timed j.mp's(i've played this matchup a ton..but you're sorta right anyway as a trade isn't that bad as long as you have meter for dash legs)...the only way to really deal with well timed j.mp's cleanly are air throw or j.fp target combo afaik

 

[abstract alien]

link to gamerbee v valle first to ten?

Here you go. Watch and be amazed
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10324893

 

[cHaotix8]

EDIT: Dang I thought I pressed "Submit"... this is going to be kinda late.


What? Only j.MP is noteworthy, and even that one is pretty fair hitbox-wise(green vulnerable area inside red hitting area) compared with lots of other air attacks with HUGE re hitting areas way outside their green vulnerable areas, vertically speaking(that's what makes them hard to anti air). I've been doing the vidcaps for a while(will post them once I'm done doing them all) so if you need proof lemme know.

EDIT 2: _Xenon_, Juri having a bad matchup against adon(IF that's your point, I don't agree) =/= Adon's broken.

Like many have said before, it's Gamerbee that's broken.

Outside of charge characters Honda's jumps are extremly difficult to anti air clean without an invincible dp. It's because of those anti airs that most of those characters beat, or go even with, Honda. Trading leaves you in a situation where he can jab xx hands. Not to mention you're taking huge damage off of the trade.

 

[AkumaHokoru]

Juri vs Adon. Her close st.lk is 3f but it only hits low. ex pinwheel is 3f but you don't want to throw that left and right. Actually I feel much more comfortable when facing feilong than Adon.

I don't get it. If it's not hit comfirmable then it's OK to be -3/-1/-1 on block? Then why does Blanka's rainbow ball suck so bad?

you dont even want to be doing lk's to stuff adon.
(fuck you capcom you changed the moves around on me)

Jaguar Tooth (the wall dive one) loses to s.mk at a certain range. Jaguar Kick (the flip kick that armor breaks) can be stuffed by S.MP or S.MK depending on the range.

Rising Jaguar also loses to C.mp if he isnt right up on you. (at the same range that juri's c.mp beats balrog headbutt)

C.hp puts a end to adon's jump-in arsenal (with the exception of the anti-wakeup instant overhead which in all honesty you should just block)

Juri actually has very little trouble with adon if you are losing to him its the adon outplaying you. sit back read your opponent a little and you should be able to kick him around at will.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I only played Bison since vanilla (I still suck) but I found neutral jump, and back messes up Adon. I just throw all safe jump setups away and work on scissor kick pressure and Psycho Crusher any arcs that Standing HK can't reach.
Two of my friends played Adon since launch of super and ever since GamerBee, they have become super annoying to play against (he also plays Guile to troll me). I would say GamerBee is showing how Adon should be played just like Marn with Dudley, Art with Sim, or Diago with Ryu.
That said, a scrub like me was having a blast with frame traps, jaguar kicks, rising jaguars and neutral jumping online. He feels so crazy compared to my Shenanigan Bison.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Also..adon is not broken in any way shape or form. Gamerbee is broken, thats pretty much it. The character has quite a few weaknesses which Gamerbee still works around.

Like:

Jaguar Kick is -2 on block from a distance. Which means if he doesnt DP, you can simply use your 3f normal to bully him post JK. If he does it meaty...its -3. Which means you can SPD/command grab him.

I think you're simplyfying a wee bit Art. His wake up is crap period lol. The best JK is -1 and a smart player will never use anything but Short JK against a Gief or Abel. Even if he does screw up with spacing of RH JK every character doesnt have a 3 frame normal/command grab/DP to punish which makes his post JK game even stronger against those characters.

And of course he has bad matchups but it doesnt change the fact that both his wakeup and JK are pretty godlike even against characters with decent punishers.

And GB is good no doubt and obviously has more knowledge than anyone else with both matchups and using Adons tools to the max but he's still using what the character has in the end. Just as any other person who is the first to show what a character can do. Its only the beginning IMO lol.

 

[USD]

Okay seems like we are talking about so I got some questions in regards to his matchup vs ryu.

1. JK that are on the ground cannot be focused so what's the best bet against it? block and try to punish?
2. JK in the air I need to reaction DP right or focused? How safe is the focus off jumping JK? guessing best DP to use is Mp DP?
3. Cross ups on him like arturo said should be safe but if over done he will just dash forward to escape what other types of pressure can be put on him? Cant go nuts on fireballs, can't really win in the air when he's got JK, df kinda works but have to make sure spacing is perfect. What else am I missing?

after watching momochi lose to gamerbee and then valle getting bodied by him I am trying to think of a way to fight against adon players but so far the only thing i can think of is to get a knockdown and then for the rest of the match dont let him out of my pressure which is hard to do.

oh just a quick edit: honda jumpins are free against ryu's hk with proper spacing but then most normal jumpins are free to his hk with proper spacing

Not a Ryu player, but all I know is use Ultra 2. Beats all Jaguar Kicks on reaction.

 

[Brobzoid]

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10324893

I said gat damn.

 

[Lost Fragment]

So part 1 of my annotated vids is up

Part 2 will probably be up tonight and 3-5 over the next couple of days.

 

[gutabo]

you use magneto..you <3 broken characters confirmed


cobra kai!

LOL, I used Magneto way before he became the rushdown monster(I used a Magneto, Thanos and Juggs/Doom as my "marvel bosses" team back in the day) so

And Honda doing big damage it's his thing, just like having a hard time against fireballs and runaway. Stop the honda hate!

Chun's sweep > Honda's air normals with the exception of j MP.
Chun's df LK > Honda's j MP and more.

Don't get me started on that matchup...(3-7 in my opinion). I despise that matchup more than vanilla sagat now. Honda is so screwed against chun it's not funny.

Outside of charge characters Honda's jumps are extremly difficult to anti air clean without an invincible dp. It's because of those anti airs that most of those characters beat, or go even with, Honda. Trading leaves you in a situation where he can jab xx hands. Not to mention you're taking huge damage off of the trade.

Dude, seriously. If you have a decent anti air normal, you'll beat everything honda has in the air except j.MP. Also I don't think the biggest factor in the honda matchup is if you can anti air him. Finally, j.MP does not do huge damage in a trade.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

I used to be really into fighting games in the late 90s when everyone was playing SF2 and such and I've gotten a hankering to play again, but GAF, please help I absolutely suck at them and want to improve. So far, I've bought myself a relatively cheap SF4 SE fight stick (will possibly mod later if I stick with it) and bought SSF2THD and MvC2, and just nabbed SSF4 off of amazon. I've been reviewing movelists and playing arcade/training modes but any time I jump online to play other humans I get thoroughly thrashed. My question is which game should I be starting with, what characters should I be using, what resources should I be looking at?

 

[Threi]

So part 1 of my annotated vids is up

Part 2 will probably be up tonight and 3-5 over the next couple of days.

How do you get the vids to show up as Player 1 vs Player 2?

 

[_Xenon_]

Jaguar Tooth (the wall dive one) loses to s.mk at a certain range. Jaguar Kick (the flip kick that armor breaks) can be stuffed by S.MP or S.MK depending on the range.

Rising Jaguar also loses to C.mp if he isnt right up on you. (at the same range that juri's c.mp beats balrog headbutt)

C.hp puts a end to adon's jump-in arsenal (with the exception of the anti-wakeup instant overhead which in all honesty you should just block)

Juri actually has very little trouble with adon if you are losing to him its the adon outplaying you. sit back read your opponent a little and you should be able to kick him around at will.

JT isn't a problem by all means. On reaction cr.HP or N.jump beats it.

I'm fairly certain s.mp / s.mk TRADES JK and it's a bad trade.

cr.HP beats his jump-in but whiffs on air JK. That's the problem I have been talking about. Airborne moves (even Dan kick) can really fuck up AA normals.

And how do you deal with Adon once he gets in? Counter teleport isn't that helpful since JK breaks armor.

 

[Lost Fragment]

How do you get the vids to show up as Player 1 vs Player 2?

I think if you don't sign in to Live it does that.

 

[sixteen-bit]

How do you get the vids to show up as Player 1 vs Player 2?

Unplug your Ethernet cable

 

[nycfurby]

I think you're simplyfying a wee bit Art. His wake up is crap period lol. The best JK is -1 and a smart player will never use anything but Short JK against a Gief or Abel. Even if he does screw up with spacing of RH JK every character doesnt have a 3 frame normal/command grab/DP to punish which makes his post JK game even stronger against those characters.

And of course he has bad matchups but it doesnt change the fact that both his wakeup and JK are pretty godlike even against characters with decent punishers.

And GB is good no doubt and obviously has more knowledge than anyone else with both matchups and using Adons tools to the max but he's still using what the character has in the end. Just as any other person who is the first to show what a character can do. Its only the beginning IMO lol.

haha yeah of course im oversimplifying it but yeah..if i went deep into the matchup it would take all day lol.

about gief vs adon. adon only using lk jaguar is not quite accurate because gief has a real far grab range. anything except max distance lk jaguar will get grabbed. To give u a example that is easy to understand - its similar to Blanka vs Rose as in Blanka can jab -> blankaball punish any spiral that is not max range. Kinda like that. So you have to space it really, really well vs gief.

Also, the reason i said not only LK jaguar is because RH JK will beat lariats clean, which means it isnt a bad tool to throw out there from time to time. Not that a good gief will spam lariats anyway but the option does exist.

But yeah, I guess this might only be the beginning. I'm not denying adons wakeup is extremely wack. im not defending adon at all, i hate that char. just picked him up to learn his options. super arcade will change things up tho so yeah..not like ppl will have to learn counters to adons wakeup timing anytime soon.

 

[eissan]

haha yeah of course im oversimplifying it but yeah..if i went deep into the matchup it would take all day lol.

about gief vs adon. adon only using lk jaguar is not quite accurate because gief has a real far grab range. anything except max distance lk jaguar will get grabbed. To give u a example that is easy to understand - its similar to Blanka vs Rose as in Blanka can jab -> blankaball punish any spiral that is not max range. Kinda like that. So you have to space it really, really well vs gief.

Also, the reason i said not only LK jaguar is because RH JK will beat lariats clean, which means it isnt a bad tool to throw out there from time to time. Not that a good gief will spam lariats anyway but the option does exist.

But yeah, I guess this might only be the beginning. I'm not denying adons wakeup is extremely wack. im not defending adon at all, i hate that char. just picked him up to learn his options. super arcade will change things up tho so yeah..not like ppl will have to learn counters to adons wakeup timing anytime soon.

is adon one of those characters getting a nerf?

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

So part 1 of my annotated vids is up

Part 2 will probably be up tonight and 3-5 over the next couple of days.

so i see im not the only one with RH feint crossing on a dead body:lol

good shit man, missing karakusa Ultras, worst feeling in the world

 

[_Xenon_]

is adon one of those characters getting a nerf?

Everything is uncertain but from loketest report his wakeup, his sweep, his JK* all got nerfed.

* somebody said air JK has a little bit height limitation

Here's the link of full report in Japanese:
http://www20.atwiki.jp/ssf4/pages/1396.html

 

[cHaotix8]

Dude, seriously. If you have a decent anti air normal, you'll beat everything honda has in the air except j.MP. Finally, j.MP does not do huge damage in a trade.

I'm speaking about Dudley in particular. If you neutral or forward fierce I can cr. RH but because it starts up so slow it's really hard to react to. Strong owns him for free and all my other anti airs trade. I have to rely on properly spaced full screen mgb's and forward strong pretty much to get damage since I can't jump at you or get you off of me. Pretty much all Dudley players agree with how bad this one is.

is adon one of those characters getting a nerf?

Pretty sure they're just fixing his wakeup speed.

Also I don't think the biggest factor in the honda matchup is if you can anti air him.

Actually, yes it is. If you can keep him away without letting him jump in then that pretty muchs wins you the match, theoretically of course. He can't just walk up to characters with good midrange normals and specials, and if he does he gets jumped in on because he doesn't have back charge. Honda has to resort to unsafe guesses after that in order to get in. Isn't that why he has trouble with fireball characters?