Ok last late reply(just got home), fuck that old PC at work :s
cHaotix8 said:
Whoah dude, I never said Honda was broken. All I said was that he has jump ins that other characters have trouble dealing with and that he could use a slight damage nerf. The reason why I bring up Dudley is that Honda can pretty much hold down back the entire match. Standing RH rapes Dudley in footsie range, as does crouching jab xx hands. If he wants to end the match quick, he can jump in at pretty low risk (assuming I'm not at the cr. fierce sweet spot and he knows about it and I don't pick Ultra II). No good Honda that knows the matchup is gonna just throw out headbutts. Sadly, this is true for a lot of this cast, which explains why he is ranked so high on the tier lists. Facts is facts.
All of the charge characters give the new characters a hard time. The difference with them compared to Honda is none of them can hit you for 500+ off of a jab, while at the same time being able to turtle the shit out of you.
One more thing. Dudley doesn't safe jump, since he gets all of his damage off of 50/50's and OS's that don't rely on your opponent mashing reversals (It's much safer to bait out a DP on the ground then safe jumping someone that KNOWS you're safe jumping them).
Zangief Dudley is probably 5-5, slightly in Giefs favor, but even enough. However, tiers are based on both players playing their characters at the peak of their potential. Play a good Honda that knows the matchup and see how you do.
Dude, let's not play theory fighter so aggresively. I use Honda and I know the dudley matchup in my end. Regarding what you said(bolded):
- He doesn't have many good jump ins, only a good one: jumping MP. And it's only really effective at some ranges. Its vertical range it's not that great so many well timed regular anti air moves beat it cleanly.
- Honda can hold down back for years if he wants, he's a charge character. It's a lame way to play but hey tell Ono that, I'm with you.
- I've been counter poked out of my s.HK cleanly with a punch(I'm guessing it's f+MP or MK) many times. I'll give you c.LP xx hands but I remember it trading with one of dudley's attacks, I don't know which one(and I couldn't see which one because of the trade).
- This is the part that irks me. You say that honda can jump "at pretty low risk". That's why I'm writing this post. This is not true. If you have enough time to react to do an ultra 2(according to your own post) why can't you jump at him with an attack? Why can't you jump backwards? Why can 't you dash backwards? Focus? It's not claw, adon or blanka, it's honda jumping forward! Oh and I forgot about dudley's other anti air, I think it's s.MK? It has a better hitbox!
- Facts is facts... yeah right, go tell Mike Ross that honda is top tier and he'll give you a speech about all the mistakes that matchup/tier list has. But it's on a web site, it must be true! Or(from other point of view) tell gamerbee that adon is mid tier and that he shouldn't be winning that much.
- Most honda combos are meter/character/position/crouching dependant, that's why you see most hondas go for hands into s.HK or hands into hands xx super. Fancy hands into c.lp xx hands besides being character/position dependant can be punished if the last hands don't fully connect, and fancy FADC oicho can be OS jumped very easily. Dudley can get to the 500 club with full meter too you know.
- I listed options that dudley can do, and you only answered to one of them saying that he does not do safe jumps. Well, there's no risk involved in safe jumping and it leaves dudley right next to the opponent, so why not consider it an option? I've been safe jump OS by a dudley while doing the godly EX headbutt just because I wasn't expecting it because he "does not do it".
I'm sorry for dragging this so long, I'm trying to but I can't understand where you're coming from. Now this:
SmokeMaxX said:
I agree that Honda should get a damage nerf, but he should also get a better tool for getting around fireballs. Against a shoto, his design makes a lot of sense: get around fireballs all day, do big damage, get out. Against characters without a fireball or with a shitty fireball? It becomes, get in, do huge damage, turtle the rest of the fucking match because noone can do anything.
this is something I can understand, and it makes sense to me, altho I don't think that having no fireball means death against honda, this is not ST.
To everyone else: I'm sorry if I'm taking this too long, if I am, please let me know and I'll stop. Maybe today is not my day and I'm trying to take it on someone or something, or maybe I'm right, who knows.
