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[the_log_ride]

Okay, Gyrian & Hitsugi. Let's do this shit. PM me emails, let's discuss through that medium.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I just found out that my some dudes that moved into my complex were playing ssf4 and mvc2 on a massive joystick table thinge when I was walking home. I haven't seen them since (I think they are college kids so they stay up really late and I have a job & family hours) but wonder how I would introduce myself.

Also with the charging moves, I find it really hard to move to non-charge characters. The hold down/back is ingrained in my brain. ABC for life.

 

[arstal]

Was gonna give you the bullet list until I realized it'd be a regurgitation of everything you probably know.

IMO, it all comes down to the game being slow as dirt, with a complete lack of any means to apply consistent offensive pressure. Shitty forward dashes, tight jab and short links, easy reversals - whoops, there I go!

In a game that allows offense like, BB, Melee, Marvel or GG, skill gaps tend to be wider simply because you're given more means to control your opponent.

I feel the exact opposite way. I feel like in those games someone just needs to know how to execute, and they'll win. SF I feel think you can still out-think your opponent.

It's why I'm learning those other games aren't for me.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I

I already quit BB, Was hype for that game for months, and got unhype in 24 hours. I think this is the gaming gods telling me to quit competitive fighters.

I'm surprised you even bought the game, frankly.

It's not hate. It's more disappointment at the steepness of the learning curve.

Seriously, I don't get how people can call BB easy and VF and KOF hard.

It's a demoralizing game for everyone who doesn't have top-notch execution skills, even moreso then CT.

So you're quitting because of the learning curve? I mean, I suck at the game. Badly. But I'm not giving up on it. SSF4 is a much better game in my opinion and is my main fighter, but I want to get into CT and play it at least up until MvC3 is released.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I feel the exact opposite way. I feel like in those games someone just needs to know how to execute, and they'll win. SF I feel think you can still out-think your opponent.

It's why I'm learning those other games aren't for me.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[Lyte Edge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWgjIoqa-xw

How does that player have over 3000 BP? :lol It's like he thinks you can only move forwards by jumping.

 

[AkumaHokoru]

SF I feel think you can still out-think your opponent.

Not if your opponent doesnt care about being punished for a mistake you cant.

 

[Gyrian]

Not if your opponent doesnt care about being punished for a mistake you cant.

Once you've established this, can't you adjust for it?
Wouldn't this essentially be out-thinking that opponent?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

It's not hate. It's more disappointment at the steepness of the learning curve.

Seriously, I don't get how people can call BB easy and VF and KOF hard.

It's a demoralizing game for everyone who doesn't have top-notch execution skills, even moreso then CT.

Got it. My execution is terrible, so that's never a good thing. SF4 will be my main FG for now, was just curious as to what everyone's initial impressions with CS was.

 

[Spiderjericho]

OR! Start one of your own.

I understand that some don't agree with the format of her tournament. But in all honesty, only Relix, FMF, Gyrian, Kadey and a few others have been proactive in setting up a tournament or ranbat. Instead of lauding Kadey for her community involvement and investment, she gets complaints. I don't think that's really fair.

 

[Kimosabae]

I feel the exact opposite way. I feel like in those games someone just needs to know how to execute, and they'll win. SF I feel think you can still out-think your opponent.

It's why I'm learning those other games aren't for me.

Try getting good at one of those games, and you'll see mindgames shine at the higher levels - that's the difference, really. That's the previously mentioned skill gap having its desired effect. Execution and knowledge are pieces inherent to that. Those with higher levels of dedication are justly rewarded for said dedication.

Yes, SF4 places higher emphasis on mindgames across the competitive board (from bottom to top level play), but that's largely an outcrop of how limited its gameplay system is in comparison.

You may feel as though, "all someone just needs to know how to execute, and they'll win" with those games, but that's because you've never had the dedication necessary to train yourself to execute in said games.

 

[AkumaHokoru]

Once you've established this, can't you adjust for it?
Wouldn't this essentially be out-thinking that opponent?

I guess you have a point even though you are being forced to dumb your game down. what do you do against someone who spams dp against any kind of attack though other than attack less and stick to 100% safe punishes.

 

[arstal]

Not if your opponent doesnt care about being punished for a mistake you cant.

Then just don't play them like you would a good player. Scrub recognition is a real skill.

If someone's not respecting your stuff, just block and punish.

Try getting good at one of those games, and you'll see mindgames shine at the higher levels - that's the difference, really. That's the previously mentioned skill gap having its desired effect. Execution and knowledge are pieces inherent to that. Those with higher levels of dedication are justly rewarded for said dedication.

Yes, SF4 places higher emphasis on mindgames across the competitive board (from bottom to top level play), but that's largely an outcrop of how limited its gameplay system is in comparison.

You may feel as though, "all someone just needs to know how to execute, and they'll win" with those games, but that's because you've never had the dedication necessary to train yourself to execute in said games.

Mindgames are mindgames really. I'll aim for the game that hits the sweetspot of ease of getting to the mindgames, and competitive balance.

SSFIV hits those areas quite well.

VF and a good KOF game hit them better, but those aren't out yet.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

as far as prizes go shes not sending some "cheap crap she doesnt want anymore" yes some of the prizes in the last tourney could have been seen as mere trinkets but some of them were also awesome and everyone who got something was happy with what they got...especially the 3 people who got 150 DOLLAR ARCADE STICKS.

either way this is alot of nothing being turned into more nothing. she wants to give you shit for playing street fighter who loses there?

When I mentioned prizes people might not even want anymore, I meant when FindMyFarms did a tournament with me and provided prizes, and even insisted on giving me a game for throwing it. It was old ps2 games and he also paid for shipping. I just wanted people to play because they wanted to have fun, and not worry about trying to win prizes. I now have around 40 PS2 games, and maybe 7 PS3 games I could give out for when Find comes back but I still just rather people play for fun. Also I was more accepting with having PSN cards as prizes in Gyrian's tournaments because tournament players could actually all pitch in and pay for it like a money match of sorts. Then the code could be simply sent in a PSN message to the winner.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Double perfected a Honda with Viper. Feels good man.

Spoiler

Alright so it was a 500 bp Honda scrub who did nothing but use turbo hp hands every time I got close and got counter hit to hell and back. Still feels good though, man.

 

[Gyrian]

Instead of lauding Kadey for her community involvement and investment, she gets complaints. I don't think that's really fair.

There will never be unanimous praise.
I wouldn't go as far saying that she's getting complaints instead; there's definitely a lot of love and appreciation here for what she's done (and will continue doing).

Not to you specifically, but I keep coming back to this: it's easy to move into black or white, when in reality things tend to be fairly gray.

 

[arstal]

I guess you have a point even though you are being forced to dumb your game down. what do you do against someone who spams dp against any kind of attack though other than attack less and stick to 100% safe punishes.

That's what you're supposed to do. Don't overcomplicate it.

Simple players are beat with simple solutions. That's true no matter what the game.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

How does that player have over 3000 BP? :lol It's like he thinks you can only move forwards by jumping.

So many people fall prey to people that play in a odd way. Especially a person that has lp dp and hp dp (do lp dp and follow with hp dp as you attempt to punish). Not people that can play on high levels, but so so players that got high points themselves.

 

[AkumaHokoru]

When I mentioned prizes people might not even want anymore, I meant when FindMyFarms did a tournament with me and provided prizes, and even insisted on giving me a game for throwing it. It was old ps2 games and he also paid for shipping. I just wanted people to play because they wanted to have fun, and not worry about trying to win prizes. I now have around 40 PS2 games, and maybe 7 PS3 games I could give out for when Find comes back but I still just rather people play for fun. Also I was more accepting with having PSN cards as prizes in Gyrian's tournaments because tournament players could actually all pitch in and pay for it like a money match of sorts. Then the code could be simply sent in a PSN message to the winner.

general statement meant to show how much involvement she was putting into her efforts. she's literally throwing away $200-500 on some of these tournaments. I've seen major sponsored tournaments do less. hell wanfest has some god awful prizes. (but then again they also allow autofire so...yeeeeah)

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Yeah, that's a lot of money and it's not like there's anyone to advertise madcatz to here. We already know the sticks are awesome.

 

[Kimosabae]

Mindgames are mindgames really. I'll aim for the game that hits the sweetspot of ease of getting to the mindgames, and competitive balance.

SSFIV hits those areas quite well.

VF and a good KOF game hit them better, but those aren't out yet.

Agreed.

But can you really blame players for being frustrated when their level of dedication to a game doesn't net them any kind of distinction from players that may not be nearly as dedicated? SSF4 hits those areas, sure, but I fully disagree that it does it well.


Melee is a much better example of game with incredible depth that is easy to "get to the mindgames" with, so to speak.

I've never really gotten into BB, but I fail to see what makes it so "executionally demanding". There's simply a lot to know, and the games are forthright about this; hence the intimidation. I think that's what's turning people away from the series and they're simply lazily muddying up the terminology.

 

[Gyrian]

Double perfected a Honda with Viper. Feels good man.

Spoiler

Alright so it was a 500 bp Honda scrub who did nothing but use turbo hp hands every time I got close and got counter hit to hell and back. Still feels good though, man.

Perfect timing to the discussion Akuma just brought up. :]

Sometimes, scrubby 'wtf' tactics all work too well against more advanced players.
Feels great to not let them get away with it. They can mash DP all day, but once you've gotten a read on their shenanigans the punishes are clear, and will hurt.

I guess you have a point even though you are being forced to dumb your game down. what do you do against someone who spams dp against any kind of attack though other than attack less and stick to 100% safe punishes.

Reminds of a quote that went something like "If you stoop down to an Idiot's level, they will beat you because of their extensive expertise".
You will play more carefully, but then you've also completely downloaded this opponent. The advantage is yours.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Don't get it. I've seen the matches. I'm curious as to how the pot got that high, and the circumstances lurking behind the event. There was clearly a lot of tension meandering about the room between Sanford and those four guys.

ah, I see. can't do anything about that. sorry.

 

[arstal]

Agreed.

But can you really blame players for being frustrated when their level of dedication to a game doesn't net them any kind of distinction from players that may not be nearly as dedicated? SSF4 hits those areas, sure, but I fully disagree that it does it well.


Melee is a much better example of game with incredible depth that is easy to "get to the mindgames" with, so to speak.

I've never really gotten into BB, but I fail to see what makes it so "executionally demanding". There's simply a lot to know, and the games are forthright about this; hence the intimidation. I think that's what's turning people away from the series and they're simply lazily muddying up the terminology.

I'd rather have a game reward intelligence and strategy, then grinding.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Reminds of a quote that went something like "If you stoop down to an Idiot's level, they will beat you because of their extensive expertise".
You will play more carefully, but then you've also completely downloaded this opponent. The advantage is yours.

Reminds me of the Blanka should be removed from street fighter 4 talk

 

[AkumaHokoru]

Perfect timing to the discussion Akuma just brought up. :]

Sometimes, scrubby 'wtf' tactics all work too well against more advanced players.
Feels great to not let them get away with it. They can mash DP all day, but once you've gotten a read on their shenanigans the punishes are clear, and will hurt.

This is prevalent in SF4 with bad players beating good players just doing random shit.

 

[darkjedi187]

Time to get back in the mix. I must admit modding the Fightstick SE might have been the best thing I could have done. Really enjoying playing again.

 

[voodoopanda]

With SSF4, and probably other games, it just seems to be mostly about knowing your opponent. If two players are good, for example, one won't throw out random shoryukens because they know they could be blocked and punished. Because of the lack of random shoryukens, it becomes safer to throw out quick moves that couldn't be countered on reaction. This creates a whole new game of footsies and such.

But once that good player plays someone who doesn't know all that, they throw out a quick move and get hit by a random shoryuken. You have to figure out what your opponent is doing and change your gameplay accordingly, by trying to bait shoryukens and blocking a whole lot because almost nothing is safe if a shoryuken is gonna come at any second out of nowhere. If you don't make the adjustment and keep trying to play normally, it'd be possible for a "good" player to lose.

 

[Kimosabae]

I'd rather have a game reward intelligence and strategy, then grinding.

Call it what you want. What you call "grinding" is the difference between casuals that screw around at the local basketball court and NBA professionals. It's also the difference between competitive outlets, such as athletic sports and chess. At the end of the day, ALL games are a war between minds - the physical requirements are simply different. Just keep in mind that your preference shows that you ARE that physiological Lowest Common Denominator that Chess/Rock, Paper, Scissors/ SSF4 caters to (that isn't an insult, though you'll probably take it as such).

But to insinuate that a game that places higher emphasis on the mental necessarily means there's more of it relative to other games is a false premise.

Cognition interacts with the elements it's given - more or/and less. So keep thinking that because you choose to play SSF4 over Blazblue or Marvel that that somehow makes you too mentally sophisticated for those "other" games - you're only fooling yourself. You may not be saying this directly, but that's a strong implication of your statement.

 

[riceandbeans]

This is prevalent in SF4 with bad players beating good players just doing random shit.

I just beat bad players by playing bad myself. Flowchart Ken will kick my ass to the end of the ring, until I even the score and play like he does but with finesse.

 

[haunts]

let it rip.

 

[Lost Fragment]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVlx-IMOfAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjJjgOeE3g

 

[Rentahamster]

I just wanted people to play because they wanted to have fun, and not worry about trying to win prizes. I now have around 40 PS2 games, and maybe 7 PS3 games I could give out for when Find comes back but I still just rather people play for fun.

Your desire to have people play "for fun" is just as strong as anyone else's.

 

[arstal]

Call it what you want. What you call "grinding" is the difference between casuals that screw around at the local basketball court and NBA professionals. It's also the difference between competitive outlets, such as athletic sports and chess. At the end of the day, ALL games are a war between minds - the physical requirements are simply different. Just keep in mind that your preference shows that you ARE that physiological Lowest Common Denominator that Chess/Rock, Paper, Scissors/ SSF4 caters to (that isn't an insult, though you'll probably take it as such).

But to insinuate that a game that places higher emphasis on the mental necessarily means there's more of it relative to other games is a false premise.

Cognition interacts with the elements it's given - more or/and less. So keep thinking that because you choose to play SSF4 over Blazblue or Marvel that that somehow makes you too mentally sophisticated for those "other" games - you're only fooling yourself. You may not be saying this directly, but that's a strong implication of your statement.

I don't take at as an insult. I know different people have different preferences.

I also don't think people who like BB or Marvel are dumber, if you're insinuating that (well, Marvel maybe...) Hard execution games can be strategic- that's GG. I do think you are being a little overdefensive because that's the rap animu-style games have gotten over the years (and it isn't always fair)

People have different indifference curves, and I do respect that. I just don't feel SSF4 or any other fighter should be called a scrub game just because it doesn't require long hours in training game to get to the meat of the game.


SF4 is a different story though.

A crappy, scrubby game can be either high execution (Hokuto) or low execution (SFA1)

 

[Hugbot]

Your desire to have people play "for fun" is just as strong as anyone else's.

Clearly the only solution is to award prizes to the player who is having the most fun.

 

[vulva]

I think it would be more constructive to just try and do it, instead of whining about her tournies.

wait, you're criticizing others for whining? Seriously? _you_? SERIOUS?

Then again, I guess you're the expert

 

[ntropy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVlx-IMOfAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjJjgOeE3g

subtle

 

[jman2050]

I understand that some don't agree with the format of her tournament. But in all honesty, only Relix, FMF, Gyrian, Kadey and a few others have been proactive in setting up a tournament or ranbat. Instead of lauding Kadey for her community involvement and investment, she gets complaints. I don't think that's really fair.

You don't praise effort or investment, you praise results.

Not to personally go on either side of this issue, but those who dislike the way she's investing her resources are well within their right to complain about it, and shouldn't be bullied into doing otherwise.

 

[Lost Fragment]

subtle

I didn't post those in response to any discussion that's going on or anything. Just thought those were some really well-spoken and well-done tutorials on some basics of the game.

 

[DR2K]

You don't praise effort or investment, you praise results.

Not to personally go on either side of this issue, but those who dislike the way she's investing her resources are well within their right to complain about it, and shouldn't be bullied into doing otherwise.

It's HER resources, what business is it of yours how she utilizes them? It has absolutely ZERO impact on your lives. People should be chastised for bitching for the sake of bitching.

 

[Threi]

thread is getting kinda ugly again D:

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Your desire to have people play "for fun" is just as strong as anyone else's.

Tournaments are fun fighting fun characters with fun colors of fun. [End of battle bow]

 

[vulva]

It's HER resources, what business is it of yours how she utilizes them? It has absolutely ZERO impact on your lives. People should be chastised for bitching for the sake of bitching.

then stop bitching about people bitching. Isn't that the a perfect example of bitching for the sake of bitching?

 

[riceandbeans]

thread is getting kinda ugly again D:

So ummm... what's the point of all this drama? Is it because those two guys didn't get to play in the tourney?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

then stop bitching about people bitching. Isn't that the a perfect example of bitching for the sake of bitching?

nope.

 

[arstal]

then stop bitching about people bitching. Isn't that the a perfect example of bitching for the sake of bitching?

bitching about bitching is a GAF staple.

 

[Chavelo]

Oh, hey GAF! Just got me a PS3 system (first console since my N64 days before I went full-PC master race) yesterday and also just brought the game today! WOOT! SSF4 vs. GAF, here I-

* reads last few pages *

Well, fuck me. :-/

 

[Threi]

So ummm... what's the point of all this drama? Is it because those two guys didn't get to play in the tourney?

basically kiryogi and ferrio mad at kadey
kadey mad at kiryogi and ferrio being mad at kadey
a portion of sf GAF mad at kadey for being mad at kiryogi and ferrio being mad at kadey
another portion of sf GAF mad at the other portion of sf gaf being mad at kadey for being mad at kiryogi and ferrio being mad at kadey

meanwhile hakan is just like

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Can you not rank down in this fucking game? Ever since my Cammy got to Rank B (which requires 5000BP) I've been getting my face slammed into the dirt so badly I'm now back at 4200. I want to be C again :'(

yes you can rank down.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

bitching about bitching is a GAF staple.

labeling it as "bitching about bitching" is a cop out. more like keeping the peace.

Spoiler

watch, somebody is gonna try and outdo me and say this is bitching about bitching about bitching