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Swedish Comedian organizing man-free music fest until they learn how to behave
- Thread starter Andrew Korenchkin
- Start date
Hey, sorry to jump in. But I view your argument a bit iffy. And correct if I'm wrong, but reading your first post on this thread (below), I get the feeling that this situation would be the similar to hypotethically banning North African and Middle-Eastern immigrants from entering Cologne during New Years.
As bad, right?
Well no. The report you quoted on your post uses phrases like "nearly all" and "almost exclusively" - that is there are cases where the perpetrators have not been immigrants. In this situation if we were exclusively banning immigrants from entering the New Year's party it would effectively say that we want to protect people from their sexual harrasment, but because the other groups are not affected by that ban their harrasment is treated differently.
We are talking about things that are not exclusive to some ethnic groups here.
jakonovski
Member
Nothing wrong with woman only festivals, but it's not going to stop sexual assaults in regular festivals.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Would rather efforts were put towards educating young men on 'how to behave', but I totally understand the sentiment. Doesn't seem like any real (or successful?) initiatives have been done about the rampant sexual assaults, so what other recourse besides this would make the statement that enough's enough and actually be safe for women, practically-speaking? Where's the energy/passion from those crying foul when it comes to actually combating the problem?
Can you prove that no "non-male" committed sexual assault during this festival?
edit : Actually no, you have to prove that it is impossible for "non-males" to commit sexual assault.
ClosingADoor
Member
How bad is your security that year after year you have people being raped. This sounds to me like incompetence and the festival should have shut down earlier. No, the organization is not directly responsible for those actions, but when it happens year after year, you have to do better.
Anyway, I don't like people being excluded from things, but I also feel like women only events are a bit different then doing this stuff among racial lines for example. Maybe its a bit hypocritical, I don't know, but if they want to organize such an event go ahead. It is very sad and disgusting that it is needed though to make people feel safe.
Anyway, I don't like people being excluded from things, but I also feel like women only events are a bit different then doing this stuff among racial lines for example. Maybe its a bit hypocritical, I don't know, but if they want to organize such an event go ahead. It is very sad and disgusting that it is needed though to make people feel safe.
I don't know anything about this festival but there have been massive instances of the same kind as the Köln one here in Sweden. The police covered it up because they didn't want to make immigrants look bad.
TTOOLL
Member
This can't be said enough. Lots of hipocrisy imo.
C'mon dude it IS discrimination. Also, among those men you have gays, migrants, POC and etc. I'm pretty sure they fit your idea of minority.
MegaMelon
Member
Discrimination: "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."
Men are a group so still can be discriminated against. Also typically there are mens only dressing rooms and showers so that analogy doesn't really work.
with that reasoning excluding women from various activities and venues isn't discrimination either.
uncelestial
Member
You know I can't help but think a far better idea is to actually combat the assault problem with alcohol limits, good park design, alert/tracking functionality in the festival app, on-site law enforcement and emergency medical responders, etc, and set a model for how to have a safe festival so all festivals can learn to take it seriously.
This idea is divisive and like throwing your hands up and it promotes the toxic idea that men are natural born predators and multiple genders coexisting together in the same space is inherently dangerous.
This idea is divisive and like throwing your hands up and it promotes the toxic idea that men are natural born predators and multiple genders coexisting together in the same space is inherently dangerous.
Stilton Disco
Member
While I'm usually against any form of exclusion based on accidents of birth, given that the goal of this is to have a festival that doesn't have a massive amount of rapes for once, I'm finding it hard to be against the idea.
Because as much as I'm for gender equality, I'm definitely more strongly against rape.
Because as much as I'm for gender equality, I'm definitely more strongly against rape.
Of course I can't prove that it is impossible for "non-males" to commit sexual assault, it is a real thing that happens. I don't live in a fantasy world.
However we are talking about how we respond to what has happened, not responding to what might happen. What has happened is that the festival organizers decided to cancel next year's festival, because of the high level of sexual assaults. Basically they're saying they are unable to make the festival safe for all participants, which is their goal. This is how they responded to something that has happened.
The "man-free" festival is another entity entirely. And in response to what happened in the cancelled festival, it is for those who have behaved themselves and more often than not are the targets of those sexual assaults.
It's not built on hypothetical "who can commit sexual assaults?" -thinking.
TatteredHat
Member
I too support blaming the majority for the actions of the minority.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Sure it would be better to actually take steps to increase the safety of festivals, but like with the base problem of just the number of men committing sexual assaults, organizers of this festival/perhaps government or society in general find it too taxing financially and effort-wise to bother. The sad thing is that a female-only festival would be both cheaper and safer at the moment. It also takes less effort and no investment to just protest against such a festival, so we're basically at a standstill. People will take issue with a women-only event, but they won't do anything about the bigger problem that created the need for such a thing.
Funyarinpa
Member
Okay, please tell me how I should have been perfectly able to prevent those 20 people from raping others, as a man. How am I able to get through to these people and keep them from committing sexual assault, and how am I responsible for the actions of these individuals solely because I am a man?
Do mind that I am NOT against this measure. I fucking hate that it's come to this. But I understand.
However, men being responsible for the actions of other men they don't even know is fucking absurd.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
I love how males fantasies about what may happen should hold more weight then the reality of what is actually happening.
Just ignore the real problem and focus on these here made up ones from my head.
I also love how the same people who rave about discrimination at hypothetical festivals and movie showings never talk about womens help lines (kvinnojour) or womens shelter (which by their logic are sexist and thus bad)...
So we have places were we do segregate by sex, but since they are normal things we don't bat an eye.
I think we must recognize that self segregation is a tool that we can use.
If we use said tool we must be clear with the goal and the reasoning behind.
I say the reasoning and the goal in having a female festival.
ClosingADoor
Member
I do wonder, what is the situation like on comparable festivals? We have a ton of them here in Holland, but I haven't heard about rapes taking place there.
What is the difference then? Lacking security, organization failing, location unfit, too many people attending, more unfriendly crowd for some reason?
What is the difference then? Lacking security, organization failing, location unfit, too many people attending, more unfriendly crowd for some reason?
According to some it's because of raised awareness. I'm not sure what to believe to be honest.
Who is going to be left to go to the concert when they realize women can sexually assault as well? If <1% of people who share a chromosome with you doing something bad is good enough to ban you from events, that justifies the arbitrary segregation of any and every event by any bullshit reason.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
For these particular concerts, it seems the perpetrators have been men. Maybe you've seen some reports I haven't, but this event doesn't seem to have had any sexual assaults by women. It's not hard to see why they've suggested what they have.
Hahahaha
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
40k attendees.
Assume half are men. 27 incidents. Assuming that they were commited by a different individual each...
99.99% of the attending men did not commit sexual assault.
0.1% did
"All men are rapists, therefore they're excluded"
Don't get me wrong, sexual assault is vile but if you were to profile a collective on 0.1% incidence rate, you'd be lambasted an rightfully so.
As a comparison, 2.7% african americans are in jail right now. Profiling african americans for a 2.7% incidence is a repulsive practice that regularly gets condemned (as it should) .
Assume half are men. 27 incidents. Assuming that they were commited by a different individual each...
99.99% of the attending men did not commit sexual assault.
0.1% did
"All men are rapists, therefore they're excluded"
Don't get me wrong, sexual assault is vile but if you were to profile a collective on 0.1% incidence rate, you'd be lambasted an rightfully so.
As a comparison, 2.7% african americans are in jail right now. Profiling african americans for a 2.7% incidence is a repulsive practice that regularly gets condemned (as it should) .
Mmm. The next year's festival was cancelled due to high rate of sexual assaults. Meaning the organizers concluded they're unable to keep the attendees safe on a level they hope to. No one is excluded from the festival, because there is no festival to be excluded from.
The "man-free" festival is entirely a different thing.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I agree that any sexual assault is too much sexual assault, but if I understand correctly the organising of the man-free festival is related to what happened.
My question stands, do you think it's OK to profile a collective based on a 0.1% incidence?
uncelestial
Member
Well, to be fair to them, it could be that they're working on it now and canceled the event precisely because they realized they would be unable to have the event safely without retooling. I would like to see them take a swing at it, and be an example to other festivals, because this 'man-free' approach really solves nothing.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
👆🏿
Darth Ghandi
Banned
The "man free" festival is an idea by a Swedish Comedian.
So the people who run Bråvalla don't have anything to do with it.
The statement that Bråvalla was cancelled cause of sexuall assaults isn't the whole truth.
FKP Scorpio has lost money two years in a row at this festival is no secret.
They still have other festivals in Germany that have had sexual assaults but been successful financially.
But to your point, self segregation is a tool that we use in other circumstances.
It is a tool that shouldn't be taken lightly but if a minority group feels the need to use it and can explain how and why and towards what goals, then they should have the right to use he tools they want.
InterMusketeer
Member
Would you say the same to Muslims who're generalized as terrorists?
"Muslims cannot attend our concert until they learn how to behave."
I mean, that's a decent comparison, isn't it? Muslim extremists have killed hundreds of innocents at concerts with terrorist attacks, and according to that Swedish comedian you can just hold everyone in a group responsible for the awful actions of the few.
It's such an obviously stupid reasoning, I can't see how people can actually defend this. A women only festival? Fine, do what you want, but the reason they're giving to justify it is just dumb.
To answer your question, it is not OK to profile a collective based on incidents made by small minority within that collective.
But I think it's also OK to create a space or an event that is exclusive for a demographic that is mostly targeted by sexual assaults.
Men aren't a victimized minority. Stop embarrassing yourselves with these comparisons.
Funyarinpa
Member
I have no issues with the measures taken at this festival, but I'd disagree that this is equivalent to women's shelters or women's suicide hotlines. This festival is different from a drastic measure taken for the safety of women who are at immediate risk of harm. It's a place of entertainment.
To the people mentioning that the 99.9% is innocent: it IS unfair. It IS REALLY FUCKING UNFAIR. And that's just one of the (innumerable) reasons why we hate the myriad sexual assaulters out there for ruining things. It's their fault that drastic measures like this have to be taken.
benicillin
Banned
I don't know if GAF can emotionally handle another women's event existing, even if for most of them it's in a country thousands of miles away that they'd never attend.
InterMusketeer
Member
Well, I think we're getting there when all men are held responsible for rape.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Well women ARE being harmed at the festivals so your your point about it being something for entertainment doesn't really hold water if the female audience members are being harassed or violated.
So they aren't that different really since both measures focus on making women feel safe.
Let me guess a tumblr feminist hurt your feeling once and now you think it is more important to defend men from imaginary situations then women and their right to use segregation as a tool.
LastGamer84
Member
Just because they're not a minority doesn't make this suggestion any less stupid. It's still sexist. Or do you believe men can't be discriminated against?
You can't punish an entire group for the actions of a few. If you follow that logic, you're endorsing the following (some of these I have seen argued by actual stupid people)
"Well the majority of cyber crimes are committed by people from Russia, better not let Russia have access to the internet"
"Well the majority of crimes in St. Louis are committed by African Americans, better force them all out"
"The majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims, better not let them in the country" is the actual mentality some people in America have.
You should never judge a group of people, be it a gender, ethnicity, or religion, based on the actions of a few members of said group.
Don'tBeWeird
Member
Honestly.
It's absolutely ridiculous. Think about those poor men. They're totally feel discriminated against in the same way as Muslims. Both on par. Exactly the same.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Some men are but in the context of gender dynamics globally you are correct. The logic is fundamentally flawed there's no two ways about but whether that matters to an individual person is the point of contention. Is it ok to discriminate against men as a based on the actions of a few? I very easy to see why in the grand scheme of things yes it's alright I mean it's a festival and men as a demographic don't recieved anywhere near the same problems as women do.
Ultimately I feel H protagonists point is the most salient one unless all future festivals and events in general will be gender segregated people who feel outraged by this their time would be better spent spent raising awareness and coming up with potential solutions than simply just attempting to stop this.
I feel if things are this bad why not just gender segregate the concert with a clear line and security. Still segregation but your not discriminating attendance.
Important to not I'm not against women's only functions sexual only functions etc. But I feel when done specifically in response to something like this it gets very iffy.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
Excellent decision, 100000000% for it
Funyarinpa
Member
A serious question, then: Why aren't women advocating for full-on social segregation if that's the case? The argument that any man is a potential rapist holds true for any public space, no? (I don't mean this as a counterargument, I really want to know.)
Is it just the fact that festivals are rife with sexual assault incidents? Then shouldn't we attempt to segregate bars and the like as well?
