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[Darth Ghandi]

Just because they're not a minority doesn't make this suggestion any less stupid. It's still sexist. Or do you believe men can't be discriminated against?

You can't punish an entire group for the actions of a few. If you follow that logic, you're endorsing the following (some of these I have seen argued by actual stupid people)

"Well the majority of cyber crimes are committed by people from Russia, better not let Russia have access to the internet"

"Well the majority of crimes in St. Louis are committed by African Americans, better force them all out"

"The majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims, better not let them in the country" is the actual mentality some people in America have.

You should never judge a group of people, be it a gender, ethnicity, or religion, based on the actions of a few members of said group.

Well I am not a fan of dealing hypotheticals so I would say, Yes, sexism in a tool that we use in certain situations like safe housing for women.
None is being punished like at all since this will have zero negative impact on guys.
Again please stop with the slippery slope argument since we have proven several times in the thread that segregation is a tool that can be used to make women feel more safe.

 

[Plum]

Men aren't a victimized minority. Stop embarrassing yourselves with these comparisons.

So is it fine to generalise Muslims in a Muslim-majority country such as Egypt or Syria but not fine to generalise them in somewhere like the US? Because, by saying that a group is fine to be generalised if they're not a victimised minority, that's essentially what you're implying.

 

[CryptiK]

Can we agree that men aren't a minority? So it's not discrimination to exclude men from a specific event. It's not like there aren't a bunch of other rock festivals. Judging by some of the outrage, it's also wrong to exclude men from women's dressing rooms and showers.

You don't have to be a minority to be discriminated against. For example, women aren't a minority and they can be discriminated against in a lot of fields where they are actually a majority or close to equal.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

A serious question, then: Why aren't women advocating for full-on social segregation if that's the case? The argument that any man is a potential rapist holds true for any public space, no? (I don't mean this as a counterargument, I really want to know.)

Is it just the fact that festivals are rife with sexual assault incidents? Then shouldn't we attempt to segregate bars and the like as well?

There are a few who advocate for a man free society. But I'm not one of them.

The idea of self segregation need to be discussed at length regarding who should should be able to attend by te people who host the event.
Regarding bars we do have things like womens night etc, so again. This isn't a new tool.

So is it fine to generalise Muslims in a Muslim-majority country such as Egypt or Syria but not fine to generalise them in somewhere like the US? Because, by saying that a group is fine to be generalised if they're not a victimised minority, that's essentially what you're implying.

Now if we ere truly to walk down your path of reasoning I would require you to explain what issues faced by Muslims minorities are also faced by men in regards to discrimination and racism and islamophobia.
So could you please for the record explain what challanges men face that can be reasonably compared to discrimination and racism and islamophobia.

 

[Alienfan]

There are a few who advocate for a man free society. But I'm not one of them.

The idea of self segregation need to be discussed at length regarding who should should be able to attend by te people who host the event.
Regarding bars we do have things like womens night etc, so again. This isn't a new tool.

But bars and things like the wonder woman screening are different because men can still go if they wish (just at a different time or night). This concert is different in that it only happens once. You can segregate if you wish, have a safe space, I'm all for that. But to ban attendance to an event all together for a particular gender? Eh

 

[LastGamer84]

Well I am not a fan of dealing hypotheticals so I would say, Yes, sexism in a tool that we use in certain situations like safe housing for women.
None is being punished like at all since this will have zero negative impact on guys.
Again please stop with the slippery slope argument since we have proven several times in the thread that segregation is a tool that can be used to make women feel more safe.

No one has proven anything, just given their opinion, and yes this is a slippery slope. I said nothing of punishment, only that to exclude or deny an entire group based on the actions of a few is wrong, because it is. I don't condone this in any situation and no one else should either.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

But bars and things like the wonder woman screening are different because men can still go if they wish (just at a different time or night). This concert is different in that it only happens once. You can segregate if you wish, have a safe space, I'm all for that. But to ban attendance to an event all together for a particular gender? Eh

I think you should read the thread again in regard to the finance of said festival and what Emma Knyckare said.
This has nothing to do with Bråvalla.
Emma wants a man free festival, she isn't saying that Bråvalla is going to become one.
So I would argue that there are several other options for men to go and get their festival fix.

No one has proven anything, just given their opinion, and yes this is a slippery slope. I said nothing of punishment, only that to exclude or deny an entire group based on the actions of a few is wrong, because it is. I don't condone this in any situation and no one else should either.

Well an opinion should be rooted in fact. Not some notion of what may or may not happen imo.
But you recognize that segregation is a tool used in society but you just really have a problem in this case cause " it's wrong".

So yet again you are pushing a fantasy narrative (the slippry slope) in which man FEELINGS/FANTASIES are valued higher then the ACTUAL safety of women.

How can't you se that you are just defending the status quo with remarks like this?

 

[Plum]

Now if we ere truly to walk down your path of reasoning I would require you to explain what issues faced by Muslims minorities are also faced by men in regards to discrimination and racism and islamophobia.
So could you please for the record explain what challanges men face that can be reasonably compared to discrimination and racism and islamophobia.

That doesn't have anything to do with my post nor the reply chain. The post I was replying to implied that banning Muslims from a musical event in Syria would be fine whereas banning them from one in the US would not be.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Again please stop with the slippery slope argument since we have proven several times in the thread that segregation is a tool that can be used to make women feel more safe.

True, treating all men as potential predators has worked out great in many different areas. It's left our elementary schools devoid of male teachers, led to suspicion towards fathers who are alone with their own children, and given us a sex offender registry bloated with teen sexters and jokers who mooned someone in a crowded venue.

Oh wait, that's wrong. Segregation is always a horrible solution to any problem and only serves to dehumanize those who are left out by encouraging profiling.

You want to truly put an end to sexual abuse? Reform sex education so that it's taught in every school from a young age. Ensure that consent, "good touch, bad touch" and the "bathing suit rule" become as common knowledge as 1+1=2 for all children ages 8 and up. This way, by the time men and women become sexually active, they take pride in doing what's acceptable and actively abhor what isn't.

It's sick that, in a world where evidence of the destructive results of profiling piles into our news feed every day, people still encourage shit like this.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Holy shit women just don't want to be assaulted at a concert you guys...

 

[cromofo]

Holy shit women just don't want to be assaulted at a concert you guys...

And lets ban 99% of men who'd never done anything?

Great solution, bravo.

 

[Famassu]

are all the stage crew going to be women?

I personally have no problem with man-free advents. But they should consider the optics they are presenting. Once certain areas are designated (X-free) its going to be hard to argue that other groups cant have similar events as well.

Men already have plenty of man-only events and events where they don't get treated like shit because they are men. Men are not opressed/harassed for being men so they don't really need exclusive events where they could go to feel safe/not harassed

 

[Principate]

And lets ban 99% of men who'd never done anything?

Great solution, bravo.

Yeah like said the solution is really poor one one but more constructive effort would be put into suggesting a better one rather than this arguement that rarely ever ends up productive.

Men already have plenty of man-only events and events where they don't get treated like shit because they are men. Men are not opressed/harassed for being men so they don't really need exclusive events where they could go to feel safe/not harassed

I mean gay men are in comparison to lesbians you just have to compare potrayals to see it's a pretty stark difference. Why are gay men included in this anyway. I mean we talk about reasonable countermeasures in this as the ultimare goal But there's no good reason for thatin this case.

 

[cromofo]

Men already have plenty of man-only events and events where they don't get treated like shit because they are men. Men are not opressed/harassed for being men so they don't really need exclusive events where they could go to feel safe/not harassed

I'm not aware of this.

 

[Alienfan]

I think you should read the thread again in regard to the finance of said festival and what Emma Knyckare said.
This has nothing to do with Bråvalla.
Emma wants a man free festival, she isn't saying that Bråvalla is going to become one.
So I would argue that there are several other options for men to go and get their festival fix.

I've read it. My point still stands (unless there's something I'm missing), a "man free" festival is still banning men. For most events I'd agree a "Woman only" bar nights, movie screenings are completely reasonable, but that's only because men can get the same fix by coming at a different time or visiting a different bar/cinema. They're not banned all together, they have other options and at worse it's an inconvenience. But an entire festival? With specific acts, bands, you can't really get that fix else where. A simple solution would be safe spaces for woman, extra security and free buses home. That way no one is banned and people are safer.

 

[Martinski43]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

Both men AND women go to festivals to party, meet the other sex, hook up, fuck in a shitty tent etc. So this dumbass shit will bomb hard. Would be surprised if they sold more than like 5k tickets if they actually do this. I doubt many will back this up financially because of this.

Women dont go to festivals to just listen to music and have ladies night out.

Also dumb as shit because it's just contrarian to what they try to achieve, if they try to achieve equality that is.

Just my $0.05

 

[Oersted]

Didn't read but let me guess, this thread grow to 7 pages due to a bunch of guys trying to tell us the real issue is that this was a women-only event?

I'm too certain that two edits, namely 5 pages and is a women-only event will make this post fit into this thread.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

Holy shit women just don't want to be assaulted at a concert you guys...

Because every man on earth is a rapist or pervert, right? I don't know why people seem to be OK with banning men from events but not other groups of people.

 

[biggersmaller]

I think it would be near impossible to run this without both men and women. While wrong, in the world we live in I doubt Sweden has an all female ligh tech crew, for instance. I guess for this event men are just the help.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

Both men AND women go to festivals to party, meet the other sex, hook up, fuck in a shitty tent etc. So this dumbass shit will bomb hard. Would be surprised if they sold more than like 5k tickets if they actually do this. I doubt many will back this up financially because of this.

Women dont go to festivals to just listen to music and have ladies night out.

Also dumb as shit because it's just contrarian to what they try to achieve, if they try to achieve equality that is.

Just my $0.05

Maybe they're not trying to achieve equality. Maybe they just want to set up an event where women aren't afraid of getting sexually assaulted. And sure there are people who wanna go to festivals to fuck but y'know there are probably enough girls that'd have a good time without men around to make it viable.

I swear with events like this there's such a kneejerk reaction to it because we're not allowed. Well that's okay sometimes. Not everything has to be for us, especially if dude's being around is such a problem it causes a whole festival to get shut down.

 

[Famassu]

I'm not aware of this.

Never heard of the term "boy's club"? And I'm not talking about festivals, but those fall under events where men aren't harassed/assaulted just for being men.

 

[Hagi]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

Both men AND women go to festivals to party, meet the other sex, hook up, fuck in a shitty tent etc. So this dumbass shit will bomb hard. Would be surprised if they sold more than like 5k tickets if they actually do this. I doubt many will back this up financially because of this.

Women dont go to festivals to just listen to music and have ladies night out.

Also dumb as shit because it's just contrarian to what they try to achieve, if they try to achieve equality that is.

Just my $0.05

I don't think the festival will fail because the thought of going and not getting some festival dick will put women off lol

I always find thing like these hard to discuss because at the end of the day how does this affect me? I'm sure I could go see X band at another venue or festival at some point. If this makes women feel safe or whatever awesome for them.

 

[PerkeyMan]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

Both men AND women go to festivals to party, meet the other sex, hook up, fuck in a shitty tent etc. So this dumbass shit will bomb hard. Would be surprised if they sold more than like 5k tickets if they actually do this. I doubt many will back this up financially because of this.

Women dont go to festivals to just listen to music and have ladies night out.

Also dumb as shit because it's just contrarian to what they try to achieve, if they try to achieve equality that is.

Just my $0.05

Wife beater alert

 

[cromofo]

Never heard of the term "boy's club"? And I'm not talking about festivals, but those fall under events where men aren't harassed/assaulted just for being men.

Gotcha, not comparable then.

We're talking about tens of thousands people, not a fucking cigar smoking dozen of men.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

That doesn't have anything to do with my post nor the reply chain. The post I was replying to implied that banning Muslims from a musical event in Syria would be fine whereas banning them from one in the US would not be.

Again this is a fictional scenario. And it doesn't make any points based on events in Sweden.

True, treating all men as potential predators has worked out great in many different areas. It's left our elementary schools devoid of male teachers, led to suspicion towards fathers who are alone with their own children, and given us a sex offender registry bloated with teen sexters and jokers who mooned someone in a crowded venue.

Oh wait, that's wrong. Segregation is always a horrible solution to any problem and only serves to dehumanize those who are left out by encouraging profiling.

You want to truly put an end to sexual abuse? Reform sex education so that it's taught in every school from a young age. Ensure that consent, "good touch, bad touch" and the "bathing suit rule" become as common knowledge as 1+1=2 for all children ages 8 and up. This way, by the time men and women become sexually active, they take pride in doing what's acceptable and actively abhor what isn't.

It's sick that, in a world where evidence of the destructive results of profiling piles into our news feed every day, people still encourage shit like this.

Wait are you seriously saying that the tool of using segregation is the reason why "left our elementary schools devoid of male teachers, led to suspicion towards fathers who are alone with their own children, and given us a sex offender registry bloated with teen sexters and jokers who mooned someone in a crowded venue."?

I would argue that men underrepresented in elementary schools has more to do with jobs in which you take care of someone aren't valued as high as typical male dominated areas.
Again regarding fathers being viewed badly has more to do with the patriarchal line of thought that women are more suited to be with the kids (well it wasn't that way back when women and kids were property).


I have pointed many times that segregation is a usefull tool.

I couldn't agree more with your education idea, but I think we need something more immediate.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

Both men AND women go to festivals to party, meet the other sex, hook up, fuck in a shitty tent etc. So this dumbass shit will bomb hard. Would be surprised if they sold more than like 5k tickets if they actually do this. I doubt many will back this up financially because of this.

Women dont go to festivals to just listen to music and have ladies night out.

Also dumb as shit because it's just contrarian to what they try to achieve, if they try to achieve equality that is.

Just my $0.05

You realize this whole thing is in the context of an unacceptable number of rapes at a festival yes?

Maybe implying that women don't go to music festivals for music but instead sex within this context is a little umm callous.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Because every man on earth is a rapist or pervert, right? I don't know why people seem to be OK with banning men from events but not other groups of people.

They're not banning you from Coachella/Lollapalooza/etc...it's a new fest just for women.

Are you mad that you can't join a Curves Gym?

 

[Principate]

Never heard of the term "boy's club"? And I'm not talking about festivals, but those fall under events where men aren't harassed/assaulted just for being men.

I feel like this is a misnomer. Meant aren't harassed for being men almost anywhere so that not why those places exist. I mean this point is why it's seen as ok to bar men men in instances such as this rather than muslims etc.

I mean it's obvious the reason why these exist for women in these sorts of instances is because society as failed whereas for when certain groups just prefer it that way and have the power to enforce even if not legally.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Never heard of the term "boy's club"? And I'm not talking about festivals, but those fall under events where men aren't harassed/assaulted just for being men.

I don't think I've heard the term "boy's club" used as anything but a negative descriptor in the past decade.

Segregation and profiling are wrong, period. This is a problem requiring a systemic, macro-level solution that begins with education. If you aren't discussing consent and the difference between positive touches and negative ones with your sons/daughters today, you're setting them up to be potential abusers/victims tomorrow.

Fact is, most men are decent people just like any other general group. They don't deserve to be barred or to face unfair suspicion when they haven't done anything criminal or violated the policies of the venue.

 

[Famassu]

Because every man on earth is a rapist or pervert, right? I don't know why people seem to be OK with banning men from events but not other groups of people.

No, but a vast majority of women are assaulted and/or harassed so much that it's not wrong for them to want events where they at least don't have to worry about that.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Maybe they're not trying to achieve equality. Maybe they just want to set up an event where women aren't afraid of getting sexually assaulted. And sure there are people who wanna go to festivals to fuck but y'know there are probably enough girls that'd have a good time without men around to make it viable.

I swear with events like this there's such a kneejerk reaction to it because we're not allowed. Well that's okay sometimes. Not everything has to be for us, especially if dude's being around is such a problem it causes a whole festival to get shut down.

My favorite part is how the people opposing it need to use FANTASY arguments to make their points as a counter to actual fucking evidence *shrug*.

 

[benicillin]

Meant aren't harassed for being men almost anywhere so that not why those places exist.

Liar, they're constantly harassed for being men.

Spoiler

In their own minds.

 

[cromofo]

No, but a vast majority of women are assaulted and/or harassed so much that it's not wrong for them to want events where they at least don't have to worry about that.

Are you talking out of your ass?


Looking at the title under your name, looks like you do.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I don't think I've heard the term "boy's club" used as anything but a negative descriptor in the past decade.

Segregation and profiling are wrong, period. This is a problem requiring a systemic, macro-level solution that begins with education. If you aren't discussing consent and the difference between positive touches and negative ones with your sons/daughters today, you're setting them up to be potential abusers/victims tomorrow.

Fact is, most men are decent people just like any other general group. They don't deserve to be barred or to face unfair suspicion when they haven't done anything criminal or violated the policies of the venue.

Wait, are you saying safe houses for women are wrong?
I'm all for education but it will do very little to help the women of today.

Fact is that rape culture s live and well. Mostly propagated by men.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Can people understand these spaces/events are FOR Women, not against men. Women have to deal with vastly different pressures and fears in society and stuff like this is supposed to alleviate for the people that are really affected by those things so they can enjoy themselves. Doesn't sound like that bad a thing does it?

Like if you start banning men from existing institutions sure there's probably a problem but these are new things being setup to cater to specific people.

 

[2MF]

It sounds fine to me - it's a private event, they can organize it with whatever rules they see fit.

They're going to need a huge female turnout to make it financially worth it though. If the festival was already in financial trouble with both men and women attending it may not be easy unless there's huge demand for a female-only festival.

I'm curious to see how it turns out.

 

[CryptiK]

Never heard of the term "boy's club"? And I'm not talking about festivals, but those fall under events where men aren't harassed/assaulted just for being men.

boys club? Is this like Girls night in? So in other words not an event?

 

[Martinski43]

I don't think the festival will fail because the thought of going and not getting some festival dick will put women off lol

I always find thing like these hard to discuss because at the end of the day how does this affect me? I'm sure I could go see X band at another venue or festival at some point. If this makes women feel safe or whatever awesome for them.

It doesn't have an affect at me at all since i dont enjoy these type of camping festivals such as Bråvalla. I also dont enjoy the drunkedness and everything that goes with it. I only think it's a dumb idea. Dumb idea because it will fail miserably.

Wife beater alert

Wife beater? lol? Funny since i'm the fuuuuuuuurthest from a violent person you can come, like really. lmao

 

[nynt9]

How are they going to verify the "woman-ness" of an attendee? Are trans women allowed to attend? How about non-passing trans women? How are they going to check? Seems like a poorly conceived idea that could very easily get TERF.

 

[cromofo]

Anyways, it's pointless to argue with some people really.

Looks like it'll mostly likely fail, and I hope it does.

outchea

 

[DigtialT]

Women can't have anything without men crying

 

[WhateverItTakes]

How are they going to verify the "woman-ness" of an attendee? Are trans women allowed to attend? How about non-passing trans women? How are they going to check? Seems like a poorly conceived idea that could very easily get TERF.

Shouldn't be too complicated, I guess the hope would be only women/those who identify as such would want to go in the first place. Though I would be unsurprised if some shithead youtuber comes along in a skirt, argues for 20 minutes and gets in, claiming victory against those 'dumb feminists'.

Women can't have anything without men crying

Post above you is a prime example.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Wait are you seriously saying that the tool of using segregation is the reason why "left our elementary schools devoid of male teachers, led to suspicion towards fathers who are alone with their own children, and given us a sex offender registry bloated with teen sexters and jokers who mooned someone in a crowded venue."?

I would argue that men underrepresented in elementary schools has more to do with jobs in which you take care of someone aren't valued as high as typical male dominated areas.

Yes, and my assertion is backed by decades of research (Cushman, Andrzejewski, Stronach and Piper, etc). One of the primary reasons men avoid working with young children is the fear of career-ending accusations that can be made by anyone at any time for anything. The number of male teachers that lose their jobs because of complete nonsense is staggering (I know, this is my field of expertise as a school counselor who doubles as a consultant for young teachers).

The more immediate solution is tighter security and a more explicit and specific policy on what is and isn't allowed at these venues. The more you remind everyone of the rules, the less likely someone is to break them.

I will agree with you on the idea that allowing men into areas typically dominated by women must come with the removal of barriers that women face in traditionally male-dominated professions.

 

[andymcc]

Though I'm not sure if this is the correct solution, this kind of shit is abhorrent and pretty much happens all the time at shows/music festivals. I wouldn't be surprised if the reported assaults weren't significantly lower than what actually occurred.

That being said, to the guys that are saying along the lines "it's just a music festival", you should ask women that frequent shows/festivals if they've encountered any gross shit-- you'd be surprised.

 

[Lynn616]

Just because they're not a minority doesn't make this suggestion any less stupid. It's still sexist. Or do you believe men can't be discriminated against?

You can't punish an entire group for the actions of a few. If you follow that logic, you're endorsing the following (some of these I have seen argued by actual stupid people)

"Well the majority of cyber crimes are committed by people from Russia, better not let Russia have access to the internet"

"Well the majority of crimes in St. Louis are committed by African Americans, better force them all out"

"The majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims, better not let them in the country" is the actual mentality some people in America have.

You should never judge a group of people, be it a gender, ethnicity, or religion, based on the actions of a few members of said group.

I agree. Hypocrisy is high.

 

[Famassu]

I don't think I've heard the term "boy's club" used as anything but a negative descriptor in the past decade.

Segregation and profiling are wrong, period. This is a problem requiring a systemic, macro-level solution that begins with education. If you aren't discussing consent and the difference between positive touches and negative ones with your sons/daughters today, you're setting them up to be potential abusers/victims tomorrow.

Fact is, most men are decent people just like any other general group. They don't deserve to be barred or to face unfair suspicion when they haven't done anything criminal or violated the policies of the venue.

But women do deserve a festival where rape & harassment aren't an issue and the only way to ensure that is to not accept men, among whom the rapists & harassers are.

Boys club is often a negative thing, but not always. My point just was that in a lot of areas men already have these groups who get together and don't have women & other... undesirables, whether by intent or unintentionally. And the more important point was that a man can go to a festival and not be raped (or at least the chances are infinitely smaller).

I feel like this is a misnomer. Meant aren't harassed for being men almost anywhere so that not why those places exist. I mean this point is why it's seen as ok to bar men men in instances such as this rather than muslims etc.

I mean it's obvious the reason why these exist for women in these sorts of instances is because society as failed whereas for when certain groups just prefer it that way and have the power to enforce even if not legally.

I didn't mean men create those to escape harassment, just that in a lot of areas of society boys clubs exist where men gather to be together and while they don't necessarily explicitly ban women/gays/POC, they often are pretty homogenous and hard to get into by others.

 

[Oersted]

Though I'm not sure if this is the correct solution, this kind of shit is abhorrent and pretty much happens all the time at shows/music festivals. I wouldn't be surprised if the reported assaults weren't significantly lower than what actually occurred.

That being said, to the guys that are saying along the lines "it's just a music festival", you should ask women that frequent shows/festivals if they've encountered any gross shit-- you'd be surprised.

This is literally in response to that. A festival was cancelled a few days ago because of atleast 20 sexual assaults and 4 rapes, one of them in the middle of the crowd.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I've read it. My point still stands (unless there's something I'm missing), a "man free" festival is still banning men. For most events I'd agree a "Woman only" bar nights, movie screenings are completely reasonable, but that's only because men can get the same fix by coming at a different time or visiting a different bar/cinema. They're not banned all together, they have other options and at worse it's an inconvenience. But an entire festival? With specific acts, bands, you can't really get that fix else where. A simple solution would be safe spaces for woman, extra security and free buses home. That way no one is banned and people are safer.

Like I said, I'm sure men can find a festival that will welcome them.
Like i said before. We are now talking about a hypothetical festival that may or may not happen.
You are using this hypothetical festival to scold women who don't feel safe.


Segregation is a tool. If the harassed minority feel that it will benefit them so they can just not be scared. Then I am all for it.

 

[Nerazar]

Holy shit women just don't want to be assaulted at a concert you guys...

Wow, so every man is assaulting women in that situation...? Guys...

 

[old]

Surely there were witnesses, have they not arrested or at least identified the rapists?