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Swedish Comedian organizing man-free music fest until they learn how to behave
- Thread starter Andrew Korenchkin
- Start date
They also have to tolerate assault. If they want an assault free concert, they should hire a band in their own house and they better let in a man if he wants too otherwise that's sexism. Facts are facts.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Yes, clearly that's what I meant. You caught me.
Martinski43
Member
The hypocrisy is strong in this one.
Verbal harassment percentages of the sexual kind are VERY high. It's hard to find a woman who hasn't been at least verbally harassed. A lot of women are groped/inappropriately touched fairly often. If you think we are talking about something like 1-2%, you are woefully ignorant & naive.
Wow. The level of hypocrisy is astonishing. So segregation is OK as long as "we" do it? Jim Crowsters would be happy to have you. "Segregation is a tool". Wow. I'm pretty sure people of color felt safe and were not scared in their bathrooms and their exclusive schools.
It was never so clear to me that hyper-progressive movements at some point end up using the same methods and the same arguments and basically the same thoughts as hyper-conservative / nationalist movements. I'm just glad that yours is a fringe opinion, because if that were the current paradigm, noone would support progressives. Or should in that state.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
I would love some more statistics to look at. Being a male teacher that works with younger children I would love to see the info.
Regarding being a male in Sweden who works with children i can say that I have never had that problem in the time I have worked (over a decade). I have experienced the so called glass escalator.
Again I can't understand your claim that the hurdles faced by men aren't caused by patriarchal views of what is a mans job and how women and the fields they work in aren't valued as high. Especially with studies done and articles written on said subject.
Ah, yes. The classic "you are the nazi now".
Please do underscore how the Nazis were a minority group that wanted to protect themselves and feel safe. Cause if you can't you are just making a false equivalency.
excelsiorlef
Member
Super impressed that some of y'all have managed to make men the victims of a music festival idea brought up in response to women being raped and assaulted by men at a music festival in ridiculous numbers.
Also women's music festivals do exist in this world The Michigan Womyn's Festival, transphobic as it is, is a thing and it runs every year to very little attention or anger (again beyond the TERF nature of it).
Also women's music festivals do exist in this world The Michigan Womyn's Festival, transphobic as it is, is a thing and it runs every year to very little attention or anger (again beyond the TERF nature of it).
Yeah, I know. I don't disagree with it on one hand. Before I posted, I had originally said it's hard to feel sorry for men when this shit is too prevelant at shows but I thought I'd get raked. The real issue I'm speaking of how promoters would even get the funding/sign bigger performers with the removal of one gender.
I think that number is probably even higher at American music festivals-- just underreported. Let me give y'all an anecdote. This would be trigger warning stuff to sensitive eyes so beware: Went to see Yeah Yeah Yeahs in the mid aughts with an ex. She was normal as shit until some guy literally reached into my ex's pants, digital penetration. She screamed and I turned around and the guy snaked his way through a really packed crowd. Moments later this tiny girl, probably not even legal, starts screaming and said guy had his dick out and was rubbing it on her. I swung at the guy, grabbed him and told security and they just fucking shrugged while this little girl was crying her eyes out. Dude broke away and snaked through the crowd.
When people say "better security" there really isn't much of a fix here. I was near the stage barrier where we could alert an officer--nothing happened. Security isn't going to endanger themselves by weaving in and out of large, tight crowds. They're off to sides where it's too late to alert them when something is happennng.
You meant nothing with your statement, sorry. I cannot support that kind of discrimination, because it's really weird to do so as a human being. If 20 women rape / use violence in any occasion, there should be no call to "ban women until they've learned their lesson".
Just exchange "men" with "migrants", "trans-people" or "Asians" and you see that the argument going on here is vile. Even beyond that.
What kind of society would that be? Where in every corner you would find "women-free" activities? "Latino-free" bars or clubs? Or "PoC-free" festivals?
She can organize events like that, no harm done. But using sexist discrimination as your argument is not a wise choice as a progressive. And the organisator does that blatantly.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Always REMEBER the FE FEES and the FANTASIES of men will ALWAYS be more important then the actual safety of women.
I feel the same. Sad and sickening that so many sexual assaults and rapes happened in the past music festivals. If I had my way men would be barred from a lot of venues.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
Pretty much.
Were the usual suspects in this thread the same usual suspects in threads where queer people ask for safe spaces, and threads where African Americans ask to stop being killed? Because I'm seeing a lot of the same ridiculously dumb arguments pop up (as did there) to justify why straight white men deserve to be allowed to abuse and harass others everywhere others try to go to escape said abuse and harassment
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Oh please read the previous pages.
You have women shelters and support lines. Are they sexist cause they segregate?
Your idea and point of segregation being bad in FALSE.
It has existed.
Your examples are just that, examples and nothing more. None is talking about Latinos or migrants.
We are discussing men and women and how segregation is a tool that can be used.
If you find that hard to understand then i can't help you.
You´re creating hypothetical scenarios in your head where immigrant youth were not responsible for turning the new year's eve celebration in Cologne into an international scandal. It's possible that one or even several white men assaulted women that night, but it is certainly not them that created the very exceptional situation where hundreds of women were bothered and worse. From the logic of everyone in this thread, the organizers would be justified in banning all immigrants from arab countries, because that would demonstrably prevent the specific types of crimes that happened that night (groups of young men cornering women in the street). Similarly, the vast majority of sexual assaults in this swedish festival were certainly commited by males, but it's possible that some non-males also attacked people.
You're trying to create a logical distinction where there is none, to validate your gut feeling that it's ok to discriminate against men.
Another mistake that people in this thread are making is the idea that people are "outraged" at a women-only music festival or angered that they can't go. A women-only festival actually sound like a potentially interesting idea depending on what they do with it, but there is no denying that the justification for it is blatantly sexist in this case.
Puppet Shadow
Member
Ya, I don't really see an issue with some clubs having a 'Ladies Only' night, to me this is the same thing, just on a larger scale.
I would also support any male performers or crew members refusing to attend though.
excelsiorlef
Member
A Women's music festival ran for 40 years and the world didn't end.... 40 years.
You're taking this as literal as the concert. Do you think they really want a women only concert? Not to be able to go with guy friends, boyfriends, etc? Probably not. They probably would more like a concert where they can have everyone and not be harassed.
And no, you're not responsibility for their actions, but it's not like this is a unique occurrence. Change isn't going to come if it's just women saying they don't want to be harassed. It's as simple as that. Understanding and supporting them. Wouldn't you call that a responsibility? It really should not be outrage at them wanting to put a women only fest, it should be completely directed towards why they are putting on a women only fest.
I think you're middle statement though is the point. Even if you dislike the idea, you get it and support it because where they are coming from. Not trying to make it out like it's some massively unfair thing for men.
benicillin
Banned
Are you telling me there's 40 years of outrage I missed out on because I wasn't alive for most of it?
Looks like my Mom was working for those god damn feminists all along.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Well we DO have sexist segregation already.
That is a thing. No matter how much you try with slippery slope arguments regarding migrants (i love how migrants always become the bat/or punching bag while discussing sexual harassment by men). THAT. IS. A. THING.
Why shouldn't we use it here?
excelsiorlef
Member
Well it was a super TERF musical festival so there was that.
Dude Abides
Banned
Nobody tells me I can't go to a festival!
SiegfriedFM
Member
The point is, men, as a group, aren't being oppressed, anywhere. Even in the most equal societies, such as the one in question, women are wildly more likely to get sexually harassed or raped, on top of all the institutionalized sexism in terms of wages etc. You don't see men getting harassed and threatened and sent dickpics every time they dare make their voices heard*, like some incredibly brave women out there.
If it takes one little festival that men can't go to, to make thousands of women and girls feel safe while listening to music, that's a blow to my sense of masculine security that I'm willing to take. It's not up to me to decide what they need to do to feel safe. Either way, I don't feel that the matriarchy is out to get me just yet.
*
If it takes one little festival that men can't go to, to make thousands of women and girls feel safe while listening to music, that's a blow to my sense of masculine security that I'm willing to take. It's not up to me to decide what they need to do to feel safe. Either way, I don't feel that the matriarchy is out to get me just yet.
*
Of course you have men getting harassed and threatened for making their voices heard, but then it's usually by racist shitheads. Not otherwise "normal" men.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Fucking oath brother!
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Any of the researchers I mentioned cover it far better than I could on a forum. In addition, you might read "Men on a Mission: Valuing Youth Work in Our Communities" by William Marsiglio.
That said, the fact that you're in Sweden and I'm in the US certainly has a lot to do with our differences in personal experience. I find that the whole of Northern Europe, along with certain other highly-progressive nations like France, have a much more positive approach to this subject than fear-centric, paranoid countries like America, England and Australia (hence why all of the research I've mentioned originates in those nations).
To your latter point, I didn't make that claim. On the contrary, I agree that it's a major contributing factor and have read many studies on it as well. Hence why I said "allowing men into areas typically dominated by women must come with the removal of barriers that women face in traditionally male-dominated professions."
Well if it isn't igno-man wielding his "this is not a part of my everyday life and therefore it cannot be true"-super power.
Woman/Girls have to face sexism at a regular basis. Often in form of jokes, cat calling, 'compliments', being touched, etc The day before yesterday my girlfriend recieved a nice comment about her ass before stepping out of the tube. This is a norm for her, all her friends, all their friends etc.
There is a huge difference between sexual assult/rape and 'everyday sexism' but as long as woman are supposed to be beautiful and sexy and nothing else, it's no wonder society acts like it does.
And several members posting in this thread is a part of the problem. Shifting focus from the victims to their souls feeling hurt because of some lady wants to feel safe when going to a festival. Guys can't relate but you could atleast fucking try before you express you "equality rights" bullshit.
Well put. Seems like businesses that promote segregation as a means of "safety" rather than employing proper security services are co-opting the narrative to cut back on expenses and liabilities.
excelsiorlef
Member
Invoking safe space as a negative here in the context of women creating a festival in response to rapes and assaults at another is kinda messed up
ThisGuy
Member
Not calling safe space a negative. Don't put words in my mouth to convince me I'm wrong. In fact, where is your counter point other than to make me seem like a person with a "messed up" opinion? Just an insult on the low with no substance?
Safe spaces are great. But this is business. They're different. Business shouldn't exclude people. But, if we're putting words in our mouths, I guess you're cool with gays being denied cakes.
Alot of men here care more about their own ability to attend a festival then women's ability to not get sexually assaulted
Exhibit A
Exhibit A
excelsiorlef
Member
It's likely a private music festival.
Again Michigan's Women's music festival ran for 40 years.
Fine then saying this isn't a safe space it's a business (which is incorrect anyway) in response to women organizing a festival in response to rapes and assaults at another festival is kinda messed up.
E'yup.
ThisGuy
Member
Its Sweden's largest music festival. It is correct to call it a business.
Why bring up Michigan's women's festival ? Doesn't really correlate. Unless you can prove it can?
Right, business can be selective, way to be an uncaring citizen.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Well it is a messed up opinion you hold. You are actively downplaying the need for women to feel safe while ignoring the many contexts in which we use segregation by sex.
TyrantGuardian
Member
Good, hope it works out well. Men need to step back and stfu, bunch of crybaby whiners.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
From a practical standpoint, how would you enforce this? Turn away anyone who 'looks like a man'? Seems like that would necessitate making potentially harmful assumptions about how people present vs. how they identify. Maybe just ask people how they identify, and it goes on the honor system?
Yeah, I don't care about the men who can't go to this one festival, how horrible of me
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Read the OP?
ThisGuy
Member
No I'm not down playing it. Its horrible. But you can't segregate people from business. That's a terrible precedent.
Clearly I'm talking about minority groups being excluded from business. But play dumb. I hope you're playing. Can't tell with these non-counter points you make.
ClosingADoor
Member
I do wonder what measures were taken to try and prevent this. Because in the article they come with stuff like handing out wristbands with "don't grope" as if that would do anything.
It really sounds like a failing of the organizers also. When your festival has problems with rape and sexual assault year after year, you are not running things right. Other festivals don't have these problems to this extend, so what went wrong?
Looking into that might be more productive then calling for women only festivals "until all men have learned how to behave." Because that is never going to be the case sadly, or certainly not something that the individual men not doing these terrible things have a lot of influence over.
That said, if someone wants to organize a women only festival, be my guest. But this should not be brought as some solution to the problem.
Messofanego
Banned
Let me guess, loser men are going to harass and try to get in, and going to prove why this is needed. Because they need to be at the included in everything.
Shit, if you announced your bridal shower to be man-free, men would get triggered and want to suddenly go lol.
Shit, if you announced your bridal shower to be man-free, men would get triggered and want to suddenly go lol.
excelsiorlef
Member
Did you read the OP?
That festival is dead, this is someone else thinking of organizing something new.
I brought up MichFest because that's basically what this woman wants to organize. Only actually open to trans women
Oh good now I can say this MichFest ran for 40 years and the only people that got hurt by it were trans women.
That didn't set a precedent, this won't set a precedent, because private women's festivals are not bad.
It's not innocence, but lack of maturity they are pointing out.
This is disgusting and you should feel ashamed. A music festival exclusive to women tired of sexual assault is being equated with Jim Crow. You should go sit in a corner and think about what you wrote.
That's two threads in a week I got see the parody that liberals have become.