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Taking a look at the LGBT representation in Persona 5 (Light Spoilers)
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
Didn't know Yosuke was going to be a Romance Option. While changes would definitely have to be made (needed regardless) in the script, I think that could have been an excellent character development. Keep the homophobic stuff in, but let you shoot him down/call him down on it. He would become a better person in the story in regards to the stuff he says after Kanji (over time, of course). Decrease the hateful jokes and mentions, and allow you to romance him after a story-gated point:
In the midgame, have him reflect apologetically in a mandatory cutscene, on how much he's grown as a person. Don't even have to make him clearly gay in said cutscene, just make it relate to how he treated Kanji. This way you dont leave it under the rug as something you CAN do in the game (as a totally optional thing, that may be shot down as "not canon"), but something everyone will see. He was a bad person with the homophobic attitude making the comments, and he points it out. Make it clear.
After said cutscene you could romance him in the S-Link path, if you so choose.
Would that be tasteful? Actual question, I would like to know if I am thinking this in a way that's actually harmful.
In the midgame, have him reflect apologetically in a mandatory cutscene, on how much he's grown as a person. Don't even have to make him clearly gay in said cutscene, just make it relate to how he treated Kanji. This way you dont leave it under the rug as something you CAN do in the game (as a totally optional thing, that may be shot down as "not canon"), but something everyone will see. He was a bad person with the homophobic attitude making the comments, and he points it out. Make it clear.
After said cutscene you could romance him in the S-Link path, if you so choose.
Would that be tasteful? Actual question, I would like to know if I am thinking this in a way that's actually harmful.
Earthpainting
Member
Yikes, I saw quite a few people lament Persona 5's treatment of homosexuality, but somehow it's even worse than I imagined.
This is how I feel about it too. I'd be ok with Yosuke being a bigot and a sack of shit, if it ever amounted to something. He is a reflection of parts of that society, and his behaviour ties in directly to several plot points. It's interesting to experience the froggy shit this close to the party, because it really illustrates how casual homophobia and misogyny can be. If it were me, I'd add options to contest and call the guy out on it, rather than silently observe, and have it all cumulate into Yosuke bettering himself.
Not even gonna bother
As an elitist should
SolicitorPirate
Member
Idiots in full swing at the moment, I see
Just waited for the obvious ban lol
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Oh please, you don't get to come into a thread lamenting how a game is treating minorities as butt of jokes, say that you like it without further context, then accuse people as being elitists for giving you a side eye.
DieAntwoord
Banned
Well, let me say this. Being in Tokyo currently and having gone to Ni-Come and being a few guys big black bear they wanna eat up, I can say I've run into this a few times and it's humorous and not too far off. Japanese gay men in their cruising and flirting aren't shy, when they like you, you WILL know. I've been hugged, groped and kissed randomly and I find it in all play as do they.
Am I saying this makes it ok? Absolutely not! What I am saying is that expericing it first hand is that Ni-Come and it's men aren't shy and are pretty open when they're attracted to someone. And in terms of underage boys, the terms they're using are referring to younger guys who are adults and legal but not underage but this was just awful.
And everyone getting offended about the hand gestures, well hang around more queens/fem guys and you'll see it's not that uncommon.
Am I saying this makes it ok? Absolutely not! What I am saying is that expericing it first hand is that Ni-Come and it's men aren't shy and are pretty open when they're attracted to someone. And in terms of underage boys, the terms they're using are referring to younger guys who are adults and legal but not underage but this was just awful.
And everyone getting offended about the hand gestures, well hang around more queens/fem guys and you'll see it's not that uncommon.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
^ That's all well and good but the issue is that this is the only facet of the community that's ever represented in modern Persona, and definitely not in any positive light.
Wanting people to be treated as people and not disposable punchlines is totally elitism, yes. Loving these burner accounts.
Wanting people to be treated as people and not disposable punchlines is totally elitism, yes. Loving these burner accounts.
DieAntwoord
Banned
I also did say what they did wasn't rightZ
The type of people portrayed in the game definitely do exist, I think the question is really why they felt that it would be the best representation of gay men to use pretty much exclusively in the game. Right? That's what feels off about it. The game shies away from having actual homosexual options in the relationship system, it goes to great lengths to show the male characters declaring that they are straight when put in suspect situations, and then they have something like that.
OmnipotentO
Member
Yeah I just got to the gay dudes part... I cringed so hard. Shame because otherwise the game is fucking great. My god it's so bad. smfh
DieAntwoord
Banned
I'm not there yet, maybe my mind willl change after I get back home and play it for myself.
Lmao this guy
Have you even read anything in this thread? Like even the OP?
There are numerous brilliantly written posts explaining at great length what the problem is and the impact it has
Spikematic
Member
Those scenes were terrible and really soured me on the game. It's bad enough that I was forced to deal with that disgusting social link with the maid teacher so I could unlock very important bonuses. And then I had to see this shit. Way to tarnish an otherwise excellent game, Atlus.
encephalon
Member
The existence of a (female) BL audience really complicates things for Japan - or at least seems to from my perspective. On one hand, it means that any representations of male romance would be shrugged off as "pandering." But in a game industry full of crass marketing decisions to wink and nudges to different markets, it's not like such doubts would be unfounded. What was ATLUS thinking when they considered a yousuke romance option? Is it possible that they were considering the BL Audience?
There's a reason why there's the term "gay for real" (gachi homo) in Japanese. Gay relationships in Japanese media are considered to be intended for women. Even if ATLUS wanted to approach the subject, the avenue to explore the subject has been muddled and obscured.
There's a reason why there's the term "gay for real" (gachi homo) in Japanese. Gay relationships in Japanese media are considered to be intended for women. Even if ATLUS wanted to approach the subject, the avenue to explore the subject has been muddled and obscured.
Tales of Xillia left me with the impression that Namco is actively courting the BL market.
JonnyDBrit
Member
When there is only one representation of a group in a work, it's harder to distinguish when an instance is meant to be taken as the actions of an individual, or those of someone who is part of that group. Having that representation be negative then makes people even more wary as to the intent in that regard.
I don't see why this is a problem at all though. Like, why does it matter whether there is a commercial factor influencing a choice? People want more diversity and representation in entertainment, so what if it also panders to female fans who want to see guys together? Who cares if they get off on it? Is that problematic? No. If the relationships are written well, everyone can enjoy it even if it panders to an audience. It seems to be a very weird position to have that pandering is a problem when we're talking about Persona. Why is there a balance of genders in the party for Persona games? Because they pander to preferences. Who is the intended audience for the female characters in the game? Boys playing the game who like different cute female archetypes. But does that take away from the fact that there ARE female characters in the game, many of whom have interesting stories to tell, which can be appreciated and enjoyed by all audiences? No. It doesn't. Much of Persona is pandering. You can pander and still be quality entertainment.
encephalon
Member
I think you're right and that's why, regardless of what audience it is intended for, more positive representations of gay relationships or such romance options are a positive step.
But I think that if Japanese developers deliberately wanted to make a statement in their game about being gay and pursuing a life true to yourself they would find the well poisoned. It wouldn't be read that way.
100% agree. At the end of the day, being able to romance a fictional character of your choosing is pandering. If they didn't include the option with that in mind, they'd have just made X character the only possible romance and call it a day.
How would you integrate same sex romance in the game?
I'd like the next game to have a more complex system that level 8->9, "I should be careful with what I say", followed by 2 choices, followed by a level up. It'd be much more fun if there were an internal meter or sorts, and you could or not get the romance route depending on your choices.
Confidants / SL aren't voiced anyway. If they have time to include hundreds of lines about the characters talking in LINE about how nervous they are due to the uncertainty of the latest change of heart, they can put some extra lines to make the VN aspect more varied.
Marmaladefire
Member
Is Atlus really worried about how "genuine" they seem though? I can think Futaba and Makoto are great female characters that handle some genuinely female insecurities and present them well, but I also know that (As someone already said) the diversity of personalities and interests among the female characters exists not in small part to tick some waifu checkboxes.
Somehow, the idea of that poisoned well has never stopped devs from shoving male gaze ridden blushing schoolgirl types for guys to get off on that feel unrealistic and unrelatable to lesbian and bi women in game scenarios and letting fans claim inclusion that way (The difference between FeMC being able to romance Aigis and Elizabeth, but a seemingly sudden decision to backtrack on making Yosuke romanceable. What is it?)
Honestly there's a pretty decent chance that the next Persona game won't follow the same format at all and that these conversations are moot outside of a Crimson re-release potentially being less groan inducing.
Wow, I'd heard it was bad, but I had no idea it was this bad.
Like, this is seriously, seriously fucked up.
Nail on the head. These attitudes and portrayals are getting people killed right now.
Like, this is seriously, seriously fucked up.
Nail on the head. These attitudes and portrayals are getting people killed right now.
Juliano2016
Member
I feel bad for LGBTQ people in Japan, and SK. Even China seems to be more open and progressive at this point regarding LGBTQ representation and rights.
Japan and SK are straight up closed minded and the issue is treated as non-existent. It's mind blowing to me how those countries can be so developed but at the same be so backwards in certain points, like the gay one.
Japan and SK are straight up closed minded and the issue is treated as non-existent. It's mind blowing to me how those countries can be so developed but at the same be so backwards in certain points, like the gay one.
Kuriboi2k6
Member
This.
Really it's no different than reading a book with these type of issues in it.
As a black gay man I'm WOEFULLY underrepresented when it comes to gaming in Many ways. However as a person that works in media, I have to realize that gaming is definitely about 10 years behind other mediums when it comes to LGBT related themes and characters.
No, I am not excusing Atlus or any other gaming company for this. The only way we will get these companies to. Price is if we keep pushing think pieces like the ones posted here in their faces then maybe one day things can change.
Lastly, bullshit aside, Persona 5 is a good game when it comes to everything else.
I just wish The eastern world opened their eyes more to what's really going on with LGBT folks and why representation in a positive way really does matter
I recently saw a video (in Spanish, sorry) in Youtube about it. The channel owners are a couple (he is from Spain, she is from Japan) and they talk about various stuff in Japan.
They explained the differences between discrimination towards the LGTB collective in Japan vs Spain and it was quite an interesting watch. Seemingly, the biggest issues are:
A) Japan doesn't like people that stand out and are "different". You are part of a group of people (at work, for example) and openly saying that you are different may lead to some problems.
B) Some people hate not feeling in control with the situation. So when you say something unexpected like "hey, I'm gay you know?" they lose their shit because they don't know what to say.
C) There are less cases of open violence toward LGTB collectives but more stuff happening "under the table".
If anybody wants to watch the video because they know Spanish, PM me and I'll look for it in my YT history. As I've said, those are not my words, just the video's. If anybody is willing to correct me, share their thoughts, or add information to my post, I'll happily read to what they have to say.
Ignorance in regards to what can be considered negative portrayals of groups of people (especially minorities & the often opressed) isn't any better in this day & age when a lot of societal issues are very much on the surface and it's easy to do research of kind of "dos and don'ts" of anything & everything. If you care enough to add characters outside the "norm" into your story, it's not hard to do some research as to how to do more accurate portrayals that don't rely on harmful stereotypes, if you aren't already familiar on the subject. That's something any good writer should do instead of playing into harmful stereotypes for laughs. Like, at this point, if you add a single black character into a game, maybe don't make him the thug criminal unless you have something poignant to say about that subject. And don't make the gay characters in your games flamboyant pedophiles who pray on young boys (or are into barely legal or not-quite-pedophile-young youngster).
Can u send me the video? Im interested!
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I knew beforehand that the game's handling of LGBT representation was messed up, but I was thinking we were going to get another homophobic shit like Yosuke. I didn't think we'd get lowkey homophobic characters AND those 2 gay men.
It's worse because they're so unnecessary. Both times they've appeared have been so random. They serve no other purpose than to be predators. And they're gay! Haha! That's funny!
If there was more LGBT representation, like if you could actually have a proper romantic relationship with another guy, then ok. It would still be messed up but ok. But it's the ONLY way they're represented in the whole game. Add to the fact that the series already has a history with its fucked up handling of the LGBT community, and it honestly doesn't make me want to play another Persona game again. Or Atlus games in general.
It's worse because they're so unnecessary. Both times they've appeared have been so random. They serve no other purpose than to be predators. And they're gay! Haha! That's funny!
If there was more LGBT representation, like if you could actually have a proper romantic relationship with another guy, then ok. It would still be messed up but ok. But it's the ONLY way they're represented in the whole game. Add to the fact that the series already has a history with its fucked up handling of the LGBT community, and it honestly doesn't make me want to play another Persona game again. Or Atlus games in general.
Juliano2016
Member
Please send me the link as well
I also kindof want to mention the stupid things Sojiro says in the early game. Like not having dudes numbers in phone. It's perhaps not so much overtly homophobic as it is just ridiculously stupid.
Because apparently phone numbers are only for people you want to bang, so he can't possibly save the number for the delinquent teen in his care who's living on his property, because he's totally not gay...
Because apparently phone numbers are only for people you want to bang, so he can't possibly save the number for the delinquent teen in his care who's living on his property, because he's totally not gay...
I don't think its homophobic I just think he's a dumbass middle schooler or something
NHarmonic.
Member
What the fuck is this? 2017 people.
Ashamed of what's shown in the OP.
Ashamed of what's shown in the OP.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
That's pretty much it. He's putting up this whole aloof womaniser front.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Exactly my thoughts. His arc did a great job at showing the insecurities one can feel when they start questioning their sexuality, but then the game proceeded to undermine the shit out of it with Yosuke's behavior.
Yeah, I honestly agree with you on the teacher subject. I like having a social link with the teacher, but being able to get to romance is a bit too much. Hermit was my favorite link in 3FES just because of the fact that it was so fun or amusing to me that 'oh man, I've been playing a MMORPG with my teacher this whole time!' and enjoyed the friendship found in the game, since through online games or services is how I've made most my friends, but the comments of wanting to get married always made me uncomfortable.
With Kawakami though, I liked parts of her social link, but after it evolved to romance options, it started to rub me the wrong way. There's nothing wrong with being friends with your teachers, I was friends with a few of my teachers through high school, but the school district I was in also had rules in place like teachers couldn't have their students on social media until graduation or their leaving the school, because ethics.
I wish P5 had more options with characters your age, though granted that's because I haven't been really fond of anybody outside Yusuke on the party, and Ann only recently started to grow on me due to having met her voice actress and her being an absolute sweetheart.
Sorry, this was somewhat a bit of stream of consciousness/rambling.
Yea that was weird...
I dunno if I'd say it's necessarily homophobic though, maybe more like leaning into toxic masculinity. Or maybe it's a little of both.
Luckily he dialed back that a lot...
but not completely, it still shows up at random moments
It's funny because I've totally met dudes like that, always needing to reinforce how macho they are, so I could totally buy Sojiro's attitude, specially considering his age. You're right that it's more toxic masculinity than straight up homophobia, it's just that in the larger context of how the game treats gay people it doesn't really help matters.
Radical Edward
Member
I don't know... A lot of times toxic masculinity is interlinked with homophobia
My, hello you, ATLUS.
This is what I don't want to see anymore in any of your games :
This is Renato played by Michel Serrault in the french version of the Bird Cage / La Cage aux Folles (and I love this movie, even the US remake with Robin Williams).
I'm gay and this is not how I behave. This is not how gays behave. At all.
I get it, it"s "comedy". I didn't liked these effeminates characters either in Breath of the Wild (even if they are all straight dudes and not gay at all).
I'm sure Persona 5 is a great game but I this won't help me to buy it.
This is what I don't want to see anymore in any of your games :
This is Renato played by Michel Serrault in the french version of the Bird Cage / La Cage aux Folles (and I love this movie, even the US remake with Robin Williams).
I'm gay and this is not how I behave. This is not how gays behave. At all.
I get it, it"s "comedy". I didn't liked these effeminates characters either in Breath of the Wild (even if they are all straight dudes and not gay at all).
I'm sure Persona 5 is a great game but I this won't help me to buy it.
Yup, quite disappointing. I couldn't even like completely forget about that side of him because even at the very end of the game he brings it up one last time.
Gotta do better surrogate dad.
Good point, hence why I said it's probably a little of both.