Taco_Human
Member
Finally own all five polycount hats. AWW yeah. Now I decided after having one hat for each class, I'm going to pursue all hats of a single class. I'm deciding engineer first.
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Team Fortress 2 |OT3| - Murder-based Hat Simulator
- Thread starter Yeef
- Start date
Don't think I ever played it. I do remember de_pacman in CS. That and de_desktop I used to play a lot.Sciz said:While we're on the subject of maps, it is a travesty that this iteration of Janky-ass seems to be completely devoid of the greatest novelty map, koth_pacman. I miss it so.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Any excuse to spam 'pac-man fever'...Sciz said:While we're on the subject of maps, it is a travesty that this iteration of Janky-ass seems to be completely devoid of the greatest novelty map, koth_pacman. I miss it so.
My big issue with Nucleus, and to a lesser degree Hightower, is they feel almost too Sniper friendly. I've noticed that with later maps, like Nightfall and Barnblitz, that there are many separated areas and random cover to jump in and out of, but Snipers still have a reasonable area of effect without being so far removed from battle that you need another Sniper to take them out. I hate, hate, hate it when the only reasonable counter for a class is playing that class, and Snipers are the biggest issue for this.
On Hightower, I've figured out enough of the sightlines to run around safely, but when it comes to actually pressuring a Sniper on the top balconies I either have to do a risky sneak up some boxes or switch to Soldier and rocket jump up there. Or use flares or stickies and hope he's not paying attention. I might end up going trying the Wrangler next time...
On Nucleus, this has lead to half the map focusing on the spam classes taking the side areas, as that allows the safest route to attack Snipers shooting just out of spawn.
On Hightower, I've figured out enough of the sightlines to run around safely, but when it comes to actually pressuring a Sniper on the top balconies I either have to do a risky sneak up some boxes or switch to Soldier and rocket jump up there. Or use flares or stickies and hope he's not paying attention. I might end up going trying the Wrangler next time...
On Nucleus, this has lead to half the map focusing on the spam classes taking the side areas, as that allows the safest route to attack Snipers shooting just out of spawn.
Completely different, as far as I can tell from some quick googling. This one is a silly, chaotic affair where the CP runs around the map, but so do the four unstoppable instagibbing ghosts.Yeef said:
I haven't micspammed anything since I came back.Kuro Madoushi said:
We overplayed it and Janky-ass 1.0 couldn't upload the map before the next ice age would hit, so it tended to cull the server of anyone who wasn't a regular. I just want it tucked away in the nominate menu so I have a viable counter to whatever maroon keeps getting us stuck on 2fort.Drkirby said:
ArtistDude88
Member
Yeef said:
OH NOES, THE SPITE! I will make it... One day!
Oh, I also made some videos:
I refuse to let you live Pyro.
Can't let you do that, Zerokku.
Puny Rocket is no match for my Fist!
I refuse to let you live Pyro.
Can't let you do that, Zerokku.
Puny Rocket is no match for my Fist!
Drkirby said:
To me its not realism, its balance. A heavy moves slower, why shouldn't they aim slower? I just can't believe that running up on a heavy from behind and getting 2 point blank crit'd soda popper hits still results in (my) insta-death because the heavy just instantly spun around and hit me with what seems like 2 bullets.
XeroSauce
Member
railGUN said:
Previously:
Dealing with a Heavy requires thinking and teamwork. You know that point-blank, the Tomislav can do 400+ damage in under a second, while you can only do upwards of what, 200 with two meatshots? You obviously aren't supposed to take him out on your own, so you need other teammates as well; this allows the the health buffer that Heavy has to remain at it's high point while also giving him huge downsides (speed, range, mobility).
Enter Heavy Buffs.
The problem arises when he has the GRU to get anywhere he wants in Pyro speed and the Tmoslav to outdamage near anyone who isn't ready for it in under a few seconds, and probably everyone not named Demoman who sees him coming. Valve buffed his spin up and then buffed it again with the Tomislav, and this is why most people hate having to face off against a team of Heavies.
Now throw in a Medic and you have a class that can:
- Spin up near instantly and do more damage then then any other primary in the game, including Backburner and Blutsauger (excluding other Miniguns, obviously)
- "Free" 100% Movement speed with no penalty other then a faster uber build for the medic (and with the proper scripts, a Heavy doesn't even need a Medic or Sandvich to make up for lost health
- A free near-instant 150 HP recovery that recharges, OR a 300 HP recovery that takes 5-6 seconds.
- The range that matters (i.e. close/medium range, you're still doing 20 damage per bullet to that Soldier)
With good hearing, good vision, and even half-decent positioning, a Heavy Medic combo can demolish an entire team, and a Heavy alone can do what most classes are supposed to do, and he does them better. The only way to take down a Tomi-Heavy is:
- Focus-firing from multiple high damage classes
- A Sasha-Heavy that is already topped up at 450 HP when encounter begins
- A Sniper that knows what he is doing
- A Spy that takes priority in Heavy/Medics instead of killing that Sniper for the 5th time
- A well-placed Sandman (and even then, a Heavy remained spun up while stunned, which I think is stupid as hell)
ArtistDude88
Member
railGUN said:
Reminds me of a story.
On Gorge a week or so ago, Dog Salta was a Heavy and I was Spy... I got RIGHT BEHIND HIM 3 goddamn times while he was attacking in the opposite direction. Then for whatever bullshit reason, he swivels on a dime and instantly kills me.
I honestly think he plays Heavy in 3rd person or something, because there was just no fucking way he knew I was behind him.
I pretty much rage quit for the rest of the night.
Then end.
That's what happens when you play in a PC balanced environment vs. a console balanced environment for an FPS like this.railGUN said:
Edit:
Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And a number of other people responded to it while I was typing. Let's go from a different angle.
First, stop calling Pyro speed. It's standard speed. It's the speed that Snipers, Spies, and Engineers also run at. People that rage at Pyros for their speed are either Spies or bad people. Yeah, something minor, but I'm feeling sensitive today.
Second, it's a combo. It's one of the strongest combinations in the game, but still, there are many combos in this game that are straight up near impossible to beat without teamwork or set up. Engineer with a Pyro or second Engineer on a level 3 wrangled sentry is a similar one. Heck, Pyro and Demo or Pyro and Heavy is a similar one, as the Pyro keeps the enemies at bay long enough for the Demo and Heavy to reach their high damage potential. I'm only thinking of combos with classes I mostly play, but there are others.
Third, two classes make a 450 hp tank. Two classes, a Soldier and Demoman, can still out DPS that in two or three seconds. They also have the option of spreading out and attacking from cover/high ground (having cover on maps is important for things other than Snipers) and can win from attrition.
Finally, Heavy and Medic are like the King and Queen of your team (yes, another chess analogy). They're the optimal core that allows a lot of other classes to get stuff done. A good game of TF2 involving all the classes on both sides will almost always revolve around these two. The game was probably designed this way, which is why they allowed two assassination classes with abilities that make them the most cost efficient against this combo. It's never easy to corner the King or take out the Queen in a good chess game, which is why it's hard to take out a good Medic and how a good Heavy is useful in just about every type of push.
If you took out all of the extra weapons and stuff in TF2, I'd still think the Heavy needs his buffs. PC games are designed to be faster, and now you have your faster game with the need to be less of a zergling.
ArtistDude88
Member
Darkflight
Member
Is that soldier me?ArtistDude88 said:
XeroSauce
Member
Proven said:
I only call it Pyro speed because Pyro is the class that has the main contention of close-range damage compared ot the Heavy. Compared the Sniper's speed to Heavies is nought because they have vastly different roles, comparing Pyro's speed is more relevent, even when they are the same thing, it keeps the argument at its base.
Secondly, yes, it's a combo, but it's the combo that is the easiest to pull and the hardest to destroy. A Pyro/Engi is destroyed by stickies and Machina's, a Soldier/Demo can be outdamaged by other explosive classes, a Demo/Medic combo is vunerable to Scout. Like I said before the only real counters are Sniper and Spy to a good Heavy/Medic team, because the Heavy can survive a Soldier/Demo long enough to kill one, and survive a Pyro/Medic quite easily.
You call them the King and Queen, but that's not fair to the other classes. Why can't the Pyro get a decent mobility set-up that doesn't hurt the rest of his game? Why can't the Engineer have more variety in terms of wrench utility? It's a definite power creep with the Heavy and his weapons, what with his FoS/GRU and healing capabilities, that allow him to take on more roles while still being powerful as hell. Soldier is similar in this regard (he can sap!) but Soldier has enough weakness to be a good all-rounder (200 Health, low speed and mobility costs him health, reload times and fire rate).
I don't personally use the Tomislav because I have a Strange Minigun and because I hate using what I think is an power creep weapon. Taking away weapons isn't the problem, because variety is always good. The problem arises when each weapon that is released has to do something useful or better then it's predessesor(sp?) or it's useless (i.e. Dakolah's, Bazaar).
a heavy alone is reasonably dangerous, but I'd rather encounter him than a soldier alone.
Still the game is TEAM Fortress for a reason. You can't expect to 1v1 everything.
However I do think the tomislav should fire slightly slower to account for the silent spin up.
And while I agree in theory about the spin up/sandman thing, in practice I think this would make a scout a pretty hard counter to the heavy, which he isn't and shouldn't be.
In any case heavy goes down super fast to sniper/spy, so maybe play with better teams or learn to play the game :V
Still the game is TEAM Fortress for a reason. You can't expect to 1v1 everything.
However I do think the tomislav should fire slightly slower to account for the silent spin up.
And while I agree in theory about the spin up/sandman thing, in practice I think this would make a scout a pretty hard counter to the heavy, which he isn't and shouldn't be.
In any case heavy goes down super fast to sniper/spy, so maybe play with better teams or learn to play the game :V
Give it an hour.Tenck said:
I think one other thing that can make the heavy really dangerous, is that critical hits don't have falloff. So if you start getting random crits, you can kill a scout with two hits halfway across that map.
It does, it fires 20% slower.
My biggest problem with the King-Queen anology is the act that traditionally in chess you only get one king and one queen.
It would be problematic and frankly boring if your opponent had five Queens. Why would you or anyone use Rooks or Bishops when you can have an infinite number of a piece that is superior?
Even this wouldn't be a problem if the player wth five Queens was stupid and left themselves open to a suprise Knight attack, but if they are aware it'd be pretty hard to counter without having five Queens yourself. Then every game would be the same, as every Queen does the exact same thing.
Heavy was fine before the power creep set in. If you really want to keep your instant spin-up, regular run speed, and rechargable health packs, maybe Pyro can get a real rocket jump and a weapon designed to counter Heavies? Sounds fair to me.
EDIT: Yes, I know I'm being overdramatic for the sake of a metaphor. :U Still, I feel my point about the recent heavy increase in power creep is valid.
It would be problematic and frankly boring if your opponent had five Queens. Why would you or anyone use Rooks or Bishops when you can have an infinite number of a piece that is superior?
Even this wouldn't be a problem if the player wth five Queens was stupid and left themselves open to a suprise Knight attack, but if they are aware it'd be pretty hard to counter without having five Queens yourself. Then every game would be the same, as every Queen does the exact same thing.
Heavy was fine before the power creep set in. If you really want to keep your instant spin-up, regular run speed, and rechargable health packs, maybe Pyro can get a real rocket jump and a weapon designed to counter Heavies? Sounds fair to me.
EDIT: Yes, I know I'm being overdramatic for the sake of a metaphor. :U Still, I feel my point about the recent heavy increase in power creep is valid.
tangmaster96
Member
Whoooooooo i got a huntman taunt kill right when the gates opened against a scout
XeroSauce said:
Yes, every combo has a cost efficient counter. It either appears in the form of one class that can easily take out both, or one class with the help of another taking out one of the members of the combo while keeping one or both of them still alive such as when a Scout or Pyro comes around the corner and kills the Medic while the Heavy is occupied with something else. And every combo has ways of helping against some of these counters. For the Pyro/Engy example before, we have the Short Circuit.
At this point, I don't think Valve or anybody else will be able to put the classes onto an equal footing. I don't think they were designed to anymore. A Medic is always going to be weak at fighting and even with doing everything right can still just end up dead. An Engy will always be about as strong as his tactics and sentry placement. A Sniper will always be an instakilling dick, even if you give him a bow and arrow that's supposed to be harder to use at long ranges. Soldiers and Demos are always going to be able to spam points with splash damage, always finish you off with a random crit, and then with a bit of health have the most superior movement ability in the game, despite out DPSing a Pyro at pointblank range. It's just the way it is. (You know what's even sadder? Before that damage nerf hit, someone calculated that the only way Pyros can equal the DPS of Soldiers was with afterburn. Afterburn was essentially an after-the-fact damage catch up. At least we have the degreaser+mailbox combo now.)
The take-away-items comment was towards the spin up buffs that you commented on. I didn't even want to mention the items because nothing I say is going to do much to that argument and vice versa.
I don't really like the logic you have for calling it Pyro speed, but the fact that you have to clarify for it to make relevant sense is the main reason why I see no need to call it like that.
Edit:
Dr. Kirby, I think he meant slower than it already fires. I think something like 33% slower would make people feel better.
NSQuote, TF2 is unbalanced when you have too much of anything. It's just not always unbalanced towards that team getting steamrolled. Before the Heavy buffs made people want to play Heavy again, Demoman stack was the previous nigh-unbeatable stack. And everyone here already complains about what happens with 3 or more Engineers...
Sciz said:While we're on the subject of maps, it is a travesty that this iteration of Janky-ass seems to be completely devoid of the greatest novelty map, koth_pacman. I miss it so.
Seconded. I'm shocked Yeef says he hasn't played it. It definitely needs to be added to the server, and there are very few custom maps I would say that about.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Guys, I love you all, but if you see a teamate standing next to a bunch of buildings and then they start being sapped for the love of god shoot them
I hate playing against Red Dog so much. He usually plays Tomislav heavy and his ping is horrible because he's from Columbia(?), so he effectively kills you before he even starts shooting because of how lag compensation works.ArtistDude88 said:
I disagree. I think the move speed buff and the spin down buff were both warranted. Most of the other buffs were not:Proven said:
- Valve gave the Heavy the sandwich because of his lack of mobility made getting to health packs was more difficult and he tends to get a lot of focus fire. They didn't want him to HAVE to have a medic. That's fine.
- They buffed the sandwich because 120 HP for ~5 seconds of vulnerability didn't seem worth it. Again, I'm fine with that.
- They also gave the heavy the ability to toss his sandwich. I don't care for it, but not a huge deal since this was before the minigun buffs. This effectively turns him into a team healer while also allowing him to, effectively, convert any small medkit into a medium one.
- A bit later, the heavy's firing cone was tightened quite a bit. This effectively increased the heavy's viable range. This made him much better at mid range.
- Still not satisfied, 7 months later they reduce his spin up and spin down speed by 25% while boosting his movement speed while spun up by ~38%. Well, now that he has extra mobility why wasn't the sandvich rebalanced? No one knows. The reduction in spin up and spin down effectively buffs the sandwich even further while nerfing the shotgun.
- The GRU gets added to the game, further increasing his mobility. The weapon has a worthless downside because with the spinup buff melee is useless and the health loss is easily negated by the sandvich. Again, the sandwich and minigun aren't rebalanced. The whole reason for the sandvich's existence has been more or less negated at this point, but it keeps all of its buffs.
- Finally, the Tomislav is added to the game, which even further increases the heavy's mobility while also reducing his susceptibility to ambushes and flanking. Again, the weapon has no real downside. The only situations where the tomislav is at a disadvantage compared to the stock minigun is against other heavies, and even then, only if they've spun up first (in which case you'd lose with the stock minigun anyway) or you're at fairly long range..
The problem with the heavy is that valve went overboard with buffing him. As far as I'm concerned, the spin down and movement speed buffs were fine. The cone tightening buff was unnecessary, but not a huge deal to me. The sandvich buff is mostly fine, but I feel picking up a health kit at full health shouldn't refill it. The rest of the unlock-based buffs are ridiculous to the point of me wondering if Valve has some kind of office pool going to see who can break the Heavy the most.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
who was it this time?The_Technomancer said:
edit: it was pretty hard to get the server going since it kept dying after every map change.
QueenOfThorns
Member
Good games tonight.
I seem to be getting a little less sucky as Solider, though I still can't rocket jump to save my life.
I seem to be getting a little less sucky as Solider, though I still can't rocket jump to save my life.
CornBurrito
Member
I almost popped a fucking blood vessel tonight I swear. Whoever the fuck feels.bot (if I got the name right) is: IF YOU SEE A FUCKING TEAMMATE WITH LOW HP WHO IS ON GODDAMN FIRE, PUT THEM THE FUCK OUT. IT TAKES A MOTHERFUCKING SECOND.
Biggest fucking pet peeve ever. He wasn't using the fucking backburner, and he wasn't in goddamn combat. It takes one motherfucking click to save a teammate.
Biggest fucking pet peeve ever. He wasn't using the fucking backburner, and he wasn't in goddamn combat. It takes one motherfucking click to save a teammate.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Another member of the Kuro Super Rage (tm) Friends!Obsessed said:
- Kuro
- Sgt. Pepper
- Obsessed/Cornburrito/Conbrio
