The stats in general are a stupid mechanic. Keep in mind that he did the CH d/f2 into perfect electric launch. That's pretty much the hardest thing to execute in the game.
Tried to like the game... played Paul since I don't wanna mess my playstyle with King...
It's still meh. Stance transitions are worthless. I can just mash invincible everytime Jin does a CDS. Throwbreaks got bigger frame window... and yeah... I can braindead cruise with Paul not knowing his BnBs and just punishing everything with b+1,2 because I can. I can get away with backrolling and other bad habits. I can even afford throwing out stuff with big -frames because they won't capitalize because of the invincible.
Tried to like the game... played Paul since I don't wanna mess my playstyle with King...
It's still meh. Stance transitions are worthless. I can just mash invincible everytime Jin does a CDS. Throwbreaks got bigger frame window... and yeah... I can braindead cruise with Paul not knowing his BnBs and just punishing everything with b+1,2 because I can. I can get away with backrolling and other bad habits. I can even afford throwing out stuff with big -frames because they won't capitalize because of the invincible.
Jin's CDS transitions are not for mix ups. They are for juggles. The invincible moves add another layer of depth to it. If you're doing an invincible move every time the Jin player does a CDS transtion, he/she can just block and kill you for it. Congratulations. You just took a full juggle because you got greedy for like 30 damage.
The Main Man actually says it all pretty well in this video.
And all of this isn't even bringing up the part where you can sidestep the stupid invincible moves anyway.
The dismissive attitude That so many people have just because "oh shit invincible moves in Tekken? Can't be having that shit in here!" is pretty obnoxious. People just jumping to conclusions without even thinking things through. Heck, I said at first that it sounded like a terrible idea, but I was also willing to give the damn thing a shot despite that and learned that it just might be a pretty damn good idea.
I hope they do add this shit to ALL future Tekken games just to spite some of you.
Jin's CDS transitions are not for mix ups. They are for juggles. The invincible moves add another layer of depth to it. If you're doing and invincible move every time the Jin player does a CDS transtion, he/she can just block and kill you for it. Congratulations. You just took a full juggle because you got greedy for like 30 damage.
The Main Man actually says it all pretty well in this video.
You still don't consider it that I do this by reaction, not by reads, once I see the transition animation, its free invincible. And If you are strictly defining CDS as "just for juggles", then you are not allowing creativity and/or you are not allowing players to use CDS on a pressured opponent. Again, it's gonnabe the same with hwoarang flamingo, steve albatross, and possibly, jun izumo and genjutsu.
Which goes back to what we are saying... the game is too simplified for people who actually prefer tekken over other games. It's not broken, it's BRAINDEAD. Its so easy to win that later you will get bored with it easy because of how monotonous the game is. The game again shouts "YOU GOTTA TURTLE!".
Invincibles option seects a lot of things in this game, and for a game that relies on close quarter fighting, its bad...
PS terra pretty juch nailed it for me though... not bashing 2D games but if I want this kind of gameplay I will be playing SF. An sf is more polished than this...
You still don't consider it that I do this by reaction, not by reads, once I see the transition animation, its free invincible. And If you are strictly defining CDS as "just for juggles", then you are not allowing creativity and/or you are not allowing players to use CDS on a pressured opponent. Again, it's gonnabe the same with hwoarang flamingo, steve albatross, and possibly, jun izumo and genjutsu.
Which goes back to what we are saying... the game is too simplified for people who actually prefer tekken over other games. It's not broken, it's BRAINDEAD. Its so easy to win that later you will get bored with it easy because of how monotonous the game is. The game again shouts "YOU GOTTA TURTLE!".
Jin can cancel the CDS with a crouch dash to block or not use the CDS transition at all. The CDS transition outside of juggles is 100% gimmick. What's the mix up? You gonna use the slow ass low out of it to mix up with the mids?
And seeing as the invincible moves have pretty much 0 tracking and are just as bad on whiff as they are on block, how is this gonna change ANYTHING about the way people play Tekken at the highest level? Movement and spacing will still dominate everything else. Once again, you're failing to make a compelling point here against these moves.
Jin's CDS transitions are not for mix ups. They are for juggles. The invincible moves add another layer of depth to it. If you're doing an invincible move every time the Jin player does a CDS transtion, he/she can just block and kill you for it. Congratulations. You just took a full juggle because you got greedy for like 30 damage.
The Main Man actually says it all pretty well in this video.
And all of this isn't even bringing up the part where you can sidestep the stupid invincible moves anyway.
The dismissive attitude That so many people have just because "oh shit invincible moves in Tekken? Can't be having that shit in here!" is pretty obnoxious. People just jumping to conclusions without even thinking things through. Heck, I said at first that it sounded like a terrible idea, but I was also willing to give the damn thing a shot despite that and learned that it just might be a pretty damn good idea.
I hope they do add this shit to ALL future Tekken games just to spite some of you.
The invincible moves are sort of not so great for constant pressure. Like with the Williams, I can see it shutting down the entire mixup game which could be very upsetting.
On the other hand, I was strolling through online today punishing people doing nothing but spamming invincible moves.
I'm more upset, though, with bounds being taken out. And the orange filter this game has annoys me.
The invincible moves are sort of not so great for constant pressure. Like with the Williams, I can see it shutting down the entire mixup game which could be very upsetting.
On the other hand, I was strolling through online today punishing people doing nothing but spamming invincible moves.
I'm more upset, though, with bounds being taken out. And the orange filter this game has annoys me.
You only think that because you read "invincible move" and assume that the character is 100% invulnerable throughout the whole thing. This is simply not the case. If you're playing Williams correctly, you're pressuring with lots of movement and + frames. I already said that these moves do not track, so your movement will be intact. In the + frames situation, you will hit people out of the invincible moves and score a CH in the process.
This brings me to Hwo being used as an example of a character that would fail with these moves in place. He has a freaking 10 frame counter hit launcher from flamingo and any Hwo player that's not running gimmicks mostly goes into flamingo at + frames. This sets it up so you can easily score a free launcher on anyone dumb enough to just throw out a invincible move mindlessly at him when he's in that stance. I have never even played Hwo and can see this, so I don't see why others can't.
Jin can cancel the CDS with a crouch dash to block or not use the CDS transition at all. The CDS transition outside of juggles is 100% gimmick. What's the mix up? You gonna use the slow ass low out of it to mix up with the mids?
And seeing as the invincible moves have pretty much 0 tracking and are just as bad on whiff as they are on block, how is this gonna change ANYTHING about the way people play Tekken at the highest level? Movement and spacing will still dominate everything else. Once again, you're failing to make a compelling point here against these moves.
Uhh... bro... again, you take away the creativity of the game. CDS ain't a just a gimmick, or CDS 2 won't have a SS, or CDS 1 won't be a good poke with a delayable followup to keep opponents honest. Jin having those CDS transitions immensely increased Jin's pressure game. Slow ass low? It's not slow on a perfectly pressured opponent who's starting to get scared, especially near wall. Again, to make it work, it depends on you. Which is one of the things that makes Tekken so fun to play.
Again, it doesn't matter if invincibles got 0 tracking. Does punishers need tracking to be effective punishers? No! You use invincibles on situations that it would be guaranteed, and it will be one of the most OP tools In the game. At least backsways have short range and too slow to interrupt strings, while reversals even when fast enough don't do damage on their own and can be beaten by elbows and knees, and crush moves can be beaten by jabs/mids. Now you have was a attack with decent range that crush through everything, which is also decently fast for what it does. Which gives the turtler the ultimate punishing tool. It completly changes the game into a monotonous baiting game where people who throws the first move loses. I would appreaciate it if we have something that does chip damage far away to discourage turtling (projectiles) but might as well play SF.
Uhh... bro... again, you take away the creativity of the game. CDS ain't a just a gimmick, or CDS 2 won't have a SS, or CDS 1 won't be a good poke with a delayable followup to keep opponents honest. Jin having those CDS transitions immensely increased Jin's pressure game. Slow ass low? It's not slow on a perfectly pressured opponent who's starting to get scared, especially near wall. Again, to make it work, it depends on you. Which is one of the things that makes Tekken so fun to play.
Again, it doesn't matter if invincibles got 0 tracking. Does punishers need tracking to be effective punishers? No! You use invincibles on situations that it would be guaranteed, and it will be one of the most OP tools In the game. At least backsways have short range and too slow to interrupt strings, while reversals even when fast enough don't do damage on their own and can be beaten by elbows and knees, and crush moves can be beaten by jabs/mids. Now you have was a attack with decent range that crush through everything, which is also decently fast for what it does. Which gives the turtler the ultimate punishing tool. It completly changes the game into a monotonous baiting game where people who throws the first move loses. I would appreaciate it if we have something that does chip damage far away to discourage turtling (projectiles) but might as well play SF.
CDS 1,2 is hit confirmable so I don't know why you would want to throw out a -14 move just like that. Even if you did, pretty much everything out CDS takes like 20+ frames to do except 1+2. You might as well be throwing out a safe mid or a hopkick every time, same result, less risk and potentially better reward.
Either way, it's the same thing for the Jin player, he can cancel and be safe from anything or try to apply pressure.
...and what are these situations where an invincible move is guaranteed?
CDS 1,2 is hit confirmable so I don't know why you would want to throw out a -14 move just like that. Even if you did, pretty much everything out CDS takes like 20+ frames to do except 1+2. You might as well be throwing out a safe mid or a hopkick every time, same result, less risk and potentially better reward.
Either way, it's the same thing for the Jin player, he can cancel and be safe from anything or try to apply pressure.
...and what are these situations where an invincible move is guaranteed?
There is no situation where it's guaranteed outside of a block/whiff punish. He's just assuming that it is and refuses to listen to the clear evidence that I provided that proves otherwise.
Besides blocking certain moves or whiff punishing, Invincibles are guaranteed in one unique and very important way: in the middle of an opponent's attack animation.
Keep in mind that they aren't invincible for the first 5 frames or so, but you still have plenty of time to read and defeat almost any 13+ frame attack in the game as soon as you see a hint of animation in your range. You can punish moves even earlier if they are a part of a canned string, such as the second hit of Kazuya's u/f+4,4.
Of course that example is easy to punish better the old fashoined way, but you get the point - once you see the animation of a second or third attack coming out after blocking, invincibles remove the need to guess what to do for some of them. I'm wondering how Chreddy will get away with RLX and HSP mixups since unlike a lot of stances with other characters, they can't always cancel into a block right away in order to bait the invincible.
Besides blocking certain moves or whiff punishing, Invincibles are guaranteed in one unique and very important way: in the middle of an opponent's attack animation.
Keep in mind that they aren't invincible for the first 5 frames or so, but you still have plenty of time to read and defeat almost any 13+ frame attack in the game as soon as you see a hint of animation in your range.
If you're reacting to 13 - 17 frame animations, then you should be blocking/low parrying every single low poke in the game on reaction.
And if you are blindly reacting to animations and just throwing it out like that, you become incredibly easy to bait and punish, because there's a lot of tricks that people use to bait people that react blindly on animations. Dragunov's unique low parry animation comes to mind.
EDIT: Since you brought up canned strings, I'll simply refer to The Main Man's video that I posted earlier. This is a good thing because anyone dumb enough to start a string from across the screen will be forced to play honest. The invincible move is a low reward version of what you can REALLY do to those people anyway. Like in the case of Kaz u/f4,4 (a move that should never be used outside of unique juggles anyway), you either low parry the lows on reaction in other games, or block and punish it in this game (since they added a stagger stun on block.)
Like I said, there are better ways to deal with Kaz's u/f+4,4. It was just an example that a lot of canned strings aren't safe from invincibles, including those with mixups. If an opponent is less likely to use these kind of moves because of the invincible, then that special move has had an impact on gameplay which must be accounted for. They can't be defined as simply "other moves" in the game.
As for reacting to 13f+ moves, parrying, reversing, etc. is not the same at all. If I try to parry an attack, except using Wang or Jin's powerful parry skills, I will still be open to knees, elbows, head attacks. All of them are open to throws and lows (except Anna's CJM). Invincibles plow through all of that.
You don't have time to read and perfectly react to these type of attacks coming in with blocks/parries/reversals/crush moves if you are using these non-invincible solution against an incoming 13f move - it will be an educated guess on your part. However with invincibles you don't even need to be educated. Even a Tekken newbie can detect the hint of movement and react with this punisher that will stop almost anything. Once you see a few frames of motion that's all you usually need to invincify him so that by the time his move finishes animating, he is flying to the ground. You know when a generic opponent is ready to do this when they are standing absolutely still. Their finger is on the trigger for the moment you come in range to do anything.
I'm not saying invincibles are over powered. They hurt the user more than help oftentimes because the punishment for getting one blocked is faaaaar greater than the damage they inflict. Still, when on offense you absolutely have to be aware of them in a way that's not like any other game mechanic in Tekken.
CDS 1,2 is hit confirmable so I don't know why you would want to throw out a -14 move just like that. Even if you did, pretty much everything out CDS takes like 20+ frames to do except 1+2. You might as well be throwing out a safe mid or a hopkick every time, same result, less risk and potentially better reward.
Either way, it's the same thing for the Jin player, he can cancel and be safe from anything or try to apply pressure.
...and what are these situations where an invincible move is guaranteed?
Exact eason why I only mentioned CDS 1. People should be not taking advantage of anything after that after block, instead of spamming te two parts together. I still remember me being estatic with the followup in DR. And yes, CDS is scary at the wall as CDS 1,2, CDS 4 and IIRC CDS 3 gives wall combos,which makes it viable in wall situations. Then if you think you rather just hopkick, it's up to you. I rather make my opponent thinking too much, with all the tools in my arsenal a threat.
And seemingly, at f+4~F, as soon as you see the hand of jin going forward, it's free paul d+1+2. It's not guessing, its just doing it on reaction. And cancelling to a crouchdash will do it nothing. And when practice mode comes, I'll test it on others, like AOP and others...
Exact eason why I only mentioned CDS 1. People should be not taking advantage of anything after that after block, instead of spamming te two parts together. I still remember me being estatic with the followup in DR. And yes, CDS is scary at the wall as CDS 1,2, CDS 4 and IIRC CDS 3 gives wall combos,which makes it viable in wall situations. Then if you think you rather just hopkick, it's up to you. I rather make my opponent thinking too much, with all the tools in my arsenal a threat.
And seemingly, at f+4~F, as soon as you see the hand of jin going forward, it's free paul d+1+2. It's not guessing, its just doing it on reaction. And cancelling to a crouchdash will do it nothing. And when practice mode comes, I'll test it on others, like AOP and others...
Exact eason why I only mentioned CDS 1. People should be not taking advantage of anything after that after block, instead of spamming te two parts together. I still remember me being estatic with the followup in DR. And yes, CDS is scary at the wall as CDS 1,2, CDS 4 and IIRC CDS 3 gives wall combos,which makes it viable in wall situations. Then if you think you rather just hopkick, it's up to you. I rather make my opponent thinking too much, with all the tools in my arsenal a threat.
And seemingly, at f+4~F, as soon as you see the hand of jin going forward, it's free paul d+1+2. It's not guessing, its just doing it on reaction. And cancelling to a crouchdash will do it nothing. And when practice mode comes, I'll test it on others, like AOP and others...
CDS4 is not a proper mix up with anything because it is a very seeable low. I don't know why you insist on saying that it is, but it is not. It is there to be a strong high crush option that evades certain mids and nothing more.
The stats are very stupid, but the core game is fine and probably the must fun Tekken has been in a very long time. The next patch will allow everyone to play without the stats.
Like I said, there are better ways to deal with Kaz's u/f+4,4. It was just an example that a lot of canned strings aren't safe from invincibles, including those with mixups. If an opponent is less likely to use these kind of moves because of the invincible, then that special move has had an impact on gameplay which must be accounted for. They can't be defined as simply "other moves" in the game.
As for reacting to 13f+ moves, parrying, reversing, etc. is not the same at all. If I try to parry an attack, except using Wang or Jin's powerful parry skills, I will still be open to knees, elbows, head attacks. All of them are open to throws and lows (except Anna's CJM). Invincibles plow through all of that.
You don't have time to read and perfectly react to these type of attacks coming in with blocks/parries/reversals/crush moves if you are using these non-invincible solution against an incoming 13f move - it will be an educated guess on your part. However with invincibles you don't even need to be educated. Even a Tekken newbie can detect the hint of movement and react with this punisher that will stop almost anything. Once you see a few frames of motion that's all you usually need to invincify him so that by the time his move finishes animating, he is flying to the ground. You know when a generic opponent is ready to do this when they are standing absolutely still. Their finger is on the trigger for the moment you come in range to do anything.
I'm not saying invincibles are over powered. They hurt the user more than help oftentimes because the punishment for getting one blocked is faaaaar greater than the damage they inflict. Still, when on offense you absolutely have to be aware of them in a way that's not like any other game mechanic in Tekken.
Jin and Wang's parry beats out elbows, knees, shoulders, headbutts, invincible moves, tag crashes, etc...
Canned strings that don't have delays will beat out invincible move attempts because they're not invincible on the first frame. This fact alone unravels your argument. The only thing having this option does is force people to use certain strings the way they were intended to be used.
I saw my Wang/Jin mistake and corrected it two hours ago. The way it reads now makes the point clearer: even those powerful defensive tools can't stop as much offense coming at you as an invincible can.
I never said that the invincible moves interrupt all canned strings, I said many. I even brought up the fact that they aren't invulnerable for the first five frames - nothing is "unravled".
The bottom line is that a player is absolutely forced to adjust their game to account specifically for invincibles. There are plenty of situations where one has to make educated guess about how to deal with attacks that are coming where an invincible removes almost all guess work.
To deal wih that, a player must then block or sidestep anticipating this new mechanic where before in other Tekkens that was not always necessary. Therefore, invincibles change the way you play, even if the change is minor for some fighting styles. I don't understand how this point is even debaable.
Oh, and as a correction to some statements above. invincibles do have some tracking, at least with a few I've noticed. Invincibles for Law and Kaz will track somewhat if you are stepping left, but pretty much completely whiff when you go right. I'm not sure of the others yet.
Oh, and as a correction to some statements above. invincibles do have some tracking, at least with a few I've noticed. Unblockables for Law and Kaz will track somewhat if you are stepping left, but pretty much completely whiff when you go right. I'm not sure of the others yet.
I saw my Wang/Jin mistake and corrected it two hours ago. The way it reads now makes the point clearer: even those powerful defensive tools can't stop as much offense coming at you as an invincible can.
I never said that the invincible moves interrupt all canned strings, I said many. I even brought up the fact that they aren't invulnerable for the first five frames - nothing is "unravled".
The bottom line is that a player is absolutely forced to adjust their game to account specifically for invincibles. There are plenty of situations where one has to make educated guess about how to deal with attacks that are coming where an invincible removes almost all guess work.
To deal wih that, a player must then block or sidestep anticipating this new mechanic where before in other Tekkens that was not always necessary. Therefore, invincibles change the way you play, even if the change is minor for some fighting styles. I don't understand how this point is even debaable.
I'll concede that there is a VERY MINOR change to the way certain characters will have to approach their offense, (not that this hurts the game in any way, so I don't even see why it's worth mentioning in this argument) but this is not very different from how a lot of characters have to approach a Lars, Lili, Alisa, or any other character that have dangerous moves that go under a lot of mids. You handle both the same way I'm saying you handle invincible moves. You either step them, or block them. If stupid bullshit like Lightning Screw and Matterhorn are allowed to exist, I see no reason why there can't be a place for these invincible moves.
As far as how Capos would have to deal with it using RLX, it's kind of pointless to bring it up until they're added in the game. Plus my knowledge of those characters is fairly limited, but here's what I do know. RLX dodges a bunch of shit, so there's no saying that they won't just go under invincible moves, and there's ways to go into RLX at + frames (their WR slide on hit) and I think there's even a way that they go into RLX that forces the opponent into crouch, which eliminates all the current invincible moves in the game as an option.
I've definitely been hit by Law and Kaz's invincibles while walking to my left. It's hard to nail it down without a proper pracice or vs. mode, but these moves do have some tracking properties. It may depend on range and stuff like that, but they aren't completely linear.
As for the point made about invincibles not being overly dominant, I agree. They simply add a new, unique layer to deal with, but it is not an overpowered layer. In the hands of a very good player, the presence of an invincible can have you play a bit more cautiously, and they can help you turn the tide against an aggressive custom poker. But they are definitely not good enough to win an entire match by themselves. I actually like it since it gives the game a different feel (though TTT2 is still the superior game of course).
I also agree about waiting for the Capos to come out to see how they deal with it, but I still see it harder for them to adjust compared to other stance characters. Even Lili can bait an invincible after her front flip kick into back stance is blocked by turning around and blocking herself.
To give anyone who is not able to get the patch an idea of the pricing:
Costume Sets 1 and 2 = 1.59 £ ~ 2.44 $
Costume Set 3 (Bikini Set; girls only) = 3.19 £ ~ 4.90 $
Each Set has 3 different colors.
Leo has no Bikini Set in this game.
Premium Effects Set (4 total each character) = 3.19 £ ~ 4.90 $
Skill Point Reset Drink x 1 = 0,79 £ ~ 1 $
Skill Point Reset Drink x 5 = 2.39 £ ~ 3.67 $
Not sure if I will buy anything. Most Sets look lame and boring (schoolgirl outfits) and are straight out of TTT2.
Premium Effects should be free, either way. Rip-Off.
Currently testing how much Power Stat was nerfed.
Okay. So:
When Power Stat is 0:
Alisas b,b, 1+2 Rocket Punch does 50 DMG.
Alisas u/f 1+2 Spam Bomb does 40 DMG.
When Power Stat is 130:
Alisas b,b, 1+2 Rocket Punch did around 90-100 DMG before. Now it does 66 DMG.
Alisas u/f 1+2 Spam Bomb did around 66 DMG before, does now 53 DMG.
So I would say they nerfed the effect of Power by around 30 %.
An increase of Power to 200 will probably bring the total damage to +50 % now, if even.
Crazy nerf, but needed.
Now to put all those points into Vigor or Endurance.
If only I knew if Vigor is important to Alisa ...
Honestly, though, I think invincible moves work better in 2D games, but I am getting more used to them in Tekken Revolution I think. They annoyed me in TTT2, but at least everyone has them in TR. Players do love to spam them though and I think that contributes to some of the problems people have with them.
Been playing since Tekken 1 and this is the most fun I've had with a Tekken since 5R. I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying but I don't like Tag, much prefer 1vs1 Tekken and I find the invincibles actually add to the fights.
I'm Warrior rank maining as Paul, my only big failing is vs Kazuya - which sadly is pretty common. His invincible back hand is still a bit op I think because he steps back before striking which dodges most incoming jabs that would normally break a regular character. Lag seems to stuff up dodging the laser too, especially side steps.
Great stuff though, only downside is the music - which is bloody terrible for a Tekken game.
Can anyone tell me how many gift points are needed to unlock characters? I have around 2800 right now and can't do anything. I just want to get Alisa playable!
Been playing since Tekken 1 and this is the most fun I've had with a Tekken since 5R. I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying but I don't like Tag, much prefer 1vs1 Tekken and I find the invincibles actually add to the fights.
Would having a stick with an octagonal gate make EWGFs easier to do? I can find the sweet spot pretty easily, but have a difficult time hitting it in high tensity games.
Can anyone tell me how many gift points are needed to unlock characters? I have around 2800 right now and can't do anything. I just want to get Alisa playable!
There's patch since morning. I bought premium effect for Jin, you live once.
Tons of people playing with buff off.
I love the new-old stages and new music on them. They still add different color tints to stages. Brazil has blue while Paris is green. Holland looks pretty normal.
Very hard Arcade is more like Tekken 6 normal 1.5, but I did get killed by Gold Ogre with 150 endurance lol.
Game grows, I like how's it going.
Xiaoyu face scares me, she looks like 2 year old child. Wtf Harada?
Edit:
Warm up space is just Mokujin standing still, no options other then wall on/off.
There's patch since morning. I bought premium effect for Jin, you live once.
Tons of people playing with buff off.
I love the new-old stages and new music on them. They still add different color tints to stages. Brazil has blue while Paris is green. Holland looks pretty normal.
Very hard Arcade is more like Tekken 6 normal 1.5, but I did get killed by Gold Ogre with 150 endurance lol.
Game grows, I like how's it going.
Xiaoyu face scares me, she looks like 2 year old child. Wtf Harada?
Edit:
Warm up space is just Mokujin standing still, no options other then wall on/off.
R. I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying but I don't like Tag, much prefer 1vs1 Tekken and I find the invincibles actually add to the fights.
