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[kirblar]

It's easy to push queerbaiting aside like it's nonsense when you've never had to experience it. Must be nice to watch TV and not have to worry about anything.

I'm looking at the Wiki entries for this stuff, and from the examples given, it really, really comes off as people upset that they're not getting on-screen Yaoi to me.

Clarke/Lexa also would fall more into just a bait and switch in general, given that the issue wasn't them being afraid to show intimacy on-screen.

 

[Beefy]

I get people will be upset about things I see as nothing. I also understand how Lexa could be seen by some as figure to express their own feelings. It's great that some people have "come out" due to Lexa. But I do feel some people have gone a little bit over the top. I'm not going to call it pathetic though.

 

[Joni]

I'm curious how they are going to handle the finale since Jason is still editing it. Who knows what he'll do at this point.

Burn it all. Season ends with Clarke nuking the Coalition. I think that was my original season prediction.

 

[figadapaura]

I'm looking at the Wiki entries for this stuff, and from the examples given, it really, really comes off as people upset that they're not getting on-screen Yaoi to me.

Clarke/Lexa also would fall more into just a bait and switch in general, given that the issue wasn't them being afraid to show intimacy on-screen.

How about people want to see their own lives and experiences represented on TV and not have to watch them get shot to death all the time. Not fucking Yaoi. How condescending.

 

[Somnia]

I get people will be upset about things I see as nothing. I also understand how Lexa could be seen by some as figure to express their own feelings. It's great that some people have "come out" due to Lexa. But I do feel some people have gone a little bit over the top. I'm not going to call it pathetic though.

Oh I agree that some people have gone over the top, more so the ones who did death threats and some of the way people talked to others on social media. The vast majority of people though are not acting that way.

The movement happening, including the twitter campaign to get noticed, has been for the most part extremely positive. Big news outlets are noticing, actors and members of Hollywood are taking notice. A change doesn't happen over night, but it's clear this isn't a flash in the pan movement that will disappear over night.

 

[kirblar]

How about people want to see their own lives and experiences represented on TV and not have to watch them get shot to death all the time. Not fucking Yaoi. How condescending.

Most of the examples on the wiki are people being upset that two straight men aren't suddenly making out with each other. That has nothing to do with representation.

 

[figadapaura]

Most of the examples on the wiki are people being upset that two straight men aren't suddenly making out with each other. That has nothing to do with representation.

How is that relevant to this conversation exactly?

Also, how is two male leads on a show being canonically gay/bisexual and in a relationship not about representation? m/f pairings make out all the time.

Destiel/Supernatural isn't my thing anyway, so you're talking to the wrong person about that.

 

[Somnia]

Most of the examples on the wiki are people being upset that two straight men aren't suddenly making out with each other. That has nothing to do with representation.

https://www.autostraddle.com/all-65-dead-lesbian-and-bisexual-characters-on-tv-and-how-they-died-312315/

Please go read this and then come back to me and list every long lasting gay/bisexual/lesbian couple on TV that ends in happiness.

 

[Gotchaye]

I don't watch this show but it was explained to me what happened in really general terms (popular F/F pairing where one gets killed off in a random way immediately after first having sex) and my first thought was "can't be worse than Warren's stray bullet" and then I watched and it was exactly the same. As someone not invested in this it's kind of hilarious that a writer could fuck up like that 15 years later. Like, do you not remember people being upset by that?

 

[Joni]

https://www.autostraddle.com/all-65-dead-lesbian-and-bisexual-characters-on-tv-and-how-they-died-312315/

Please go read this and then come back to me and list every long lasting gay/bisexual/lesbian couple on TV that ends in happiness.

Some of them are reaching, like Saxa who gets on the list because of a threesome.

 

[Somnia]

Some of them are reaching, like Saxa who gets on the list because of a threesome.

I don't dispute that, but it doesn't invalidate the point.

 

[Kyuur]

How about people want to see their own lives and experiences represented on TV and not have to watch them get shot to death all the time.

The 100 seems like an odd place to wish for that, considering all of the relationships in the series have had gruesome ends. Seems to me that people are upset with the general state of TV and taking it out on a show which I think is frankly undeserving of it (see my previous post).

 

[kirblar]

How is that relevant to this conversation exactly?

Also, how is two male leads on a show being canonically gay/bisexual and in a relationship not about representation? m/f pairings make out all the time.

Destiel/Supernatural isn't my thing anyway, so you're talking to the wrong person about that.

You and others brought the term up in this thread. This isn't about male leads/characters being canonically gay/bi, we have those. This is trying to warp non gay/bi male leads into fanservice for a predominantly female group. More representation is great, but I don't see these requests as actually being about representation at all.

https://www.autostraddle.com/all-65-dead-lesbian-and-bisexual-characters-on-tv-and-how-they-died-312315/

Please go read this and then come back to me and list every long lasting gay/bisexual/lesbian couple on TV that ends in happiness.

Most couples don't end in happiness? It's Peter Parker/OMD syndrome- tying a character down in a long term relationship kills a lot of drama, and the nature of television and cast changes means that the relationship's existence is often determined by a number of factors outside of production's control.

 

[Somnia]

Most couples don't end in happiness? It's Peter Parker/OMD syndrome- tying a character down in a long term relationship kills a lot of drama, and the nature of television and cast changes means that the relationship's existence is often determined by a number of factors outside of production's control.

Ok that is not the point that I'm making. Yes tons of shows have relationships that don't end in happiness, that's life and expected. The point is you could make an extremely long list of straight couples that end up together in the end or have a long-term relationship that doesn't end in death. If you did the same for LGBTQ character's you'd have one very very small list.

 

[figadapaura]

You and others brought the term up in this thread. This isn't about male leads/characters being canonically gay/bi, we have those. This is trying to warp non gay/bi male leads into fanservice for a predominantly female group. More representation is great, but I don't see these requests as actually being about representation at all.

And I guess that's why this argument falls flat for you. You actually think representation right now is perfectly fine. Okay.

Queerbaiting and Destiel don't go hand in hand. I don't know wtf you think you're trying to prove here. I couldn't give a fuck about Supernatural and the mostly straight female audience for that pairing and others is not a part of this movement nor any LGBTQ movement. They're not even comparable.

 

[kirblar]

And I guess that's why this argument falls flat for you. You actually think representation right now is perfectly fine. Okay.

Queerbaiting and Destiel don't go hand in hand. I don't know wtf you think you're trying to prove here. I couldn't give a fuck about Supernatural and the mostly straight female audience for that pairing and others is not a part of this movement nor any LGBTQ movement. They're not even comparable.

I'm not saying representation is perfect! I'm saying that given the stated examples I'm finding, "Queerbaiting" looks like just about as real a thing as voter fraud. I don't believe the people upset over these (lack of) pairings of male characters are actually gay/bi males themselves.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

You and others brought the term up in this thread. This isn't about male leads/characters being canonically gay/bi, we have those. This is trying to warp non gay/bi male leads into fanservice for a predominantly female group. More representation is great, but I don't see these requests as actually being about representation at all.

That's...actually not what we're saying at all? We're saying that her dying isn't the issue.

It is about the representation. It is about sending a message to fans that you hear them, for the first time in ages, and develop a complex and beautiful f/f ship and put it at the forefront of you show. And then it is about taking all of their hopes and dreams, taking all of that positive press that you received from doing something different and influential, and then taking a massive shit on it. And then, to rub salt in the wound, it's about ignoring the problem and mess that you made and hiding behind Twitter while the rest of your crew takes the bullets for you.

 

[kirblar]

That's...actually not what we're saying at all? We're saying that her dying isn't the issue.

It is about the representation. It is about sending a message to fans that you hear them, for the first time in ages, and develop a complex and beautiful f/f ship and put it at the forefront of you show. And then it is about taking all of their hopes and dreams, taking all of that positive press that you received from doing something different and influential, and then taking a massive shit on it. And then, to rub salt in the wound, it's about ignoring the problem and mess that you made and hiding behind Twitter while the rest of your crew takes the bullets for you.

I'm aware. I think they fucked up the handling of this enormously by pulling an enormous bait and switch, and indulging the shippers when they needed to be veering away from that and making this a "two ships passing in the night" thing instead where circumstance takes an enormous dump on their ability to ever get together as a couple. Everything here was done in a way that was going to enrage people because they hyped expectations beyond anything they were capable of delivering on.

That part I get. And I get that literally redoing S6 of Buffy is monumentally stupid/bad/lazy writing that plays into bad tropes. It's just when this is attempted to be weaved into some other larger narratives (no happy endings, "Queerbaiting") where I just can't go that far.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I'm aware. I think they fucked up the handling of this enormously by pulling an enormous bait and switch, and indulging the shippers when they needed to be veering away from that and making this a "two ships passing in the night" thing instead where circumstance takes an enormous dump on their ability to ever get together as a couple. Everything here was done in a way that was going to enrage people because they hyped expectations beyond anything they were capable of delivering on.

That part I get. And I get that literally redoing S6 of Buffy is monumentally stupid/bad/lazy writing that plays into bad tropes. It's just when this is attempted to be weaved into some other larger narratives (no happy endings, "Queerbaiting") where I just can't go that far.

Attempted? Lol. This show is literally now the face of queerbaiting.

Let's take a look at the definition:

The term refers to what happens "when people in the media (usually television/movies) add homoerotic tension between two characters to attract more liberal and queer viewers with the indication of them not ever getting together for real in the show/book/movie".

As this definition states, a queer relationship or character is hinted at to attract/appeal to the queer market, and then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship), playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope), or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) without modifying the character's behavior.

Now go ahead and tell me that's not exactly what fucking happened. But instead of Lexa changing as a character, she just straight up kicked the bucket.

Let's continue, shall we?

The media has very little queer representation outside of queer specific shows (such as The L Word or Queer as Folk). According to research compiled by the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD), the 2012–13 television season saw 4.4% of series regulars as queer characters; a marked increase from the statistics from previous years (2.9% in 2011, 3.9% in 2010, 3% in 2008, and 1.1% in 2007).

This lack of representation is sometimes used as a marketing strategy more than an actual attempt at representation. If a mainstream show offers a queer character, "they know that because there is very little queer representation in media, queer people are going to latch onto this character, and therefore latch onto the series."

Well...I'll be damned. Sounds pretty similar to what we're talking about.

But wait! There's more!

Some queer fans might accept it as "a way to throw us a bone when we normally wouldn't have anything, to acknowledge that we're there in the audience when the powers that be would prefer to ignore us". However, some others are unsatisfied by the poor representation they are given. "Fans demand more accountability from writers that get us wrong – or just don’t give us enough."

Queerbaiting isn't a fucking myth; it happens. All the time. And to say that we're just being bitter and need to stop drawing negative conclusions from what happened...I'll get over it when someone makes an actual effort to do something right for a fucking change.

 

[Joni]

It isn't queerbaiting if they are in a relationship. The page literally says including The 100 is debatable. And that is on a page already including examples of fans wishing for a relationship like Sherlock and Supernatural while canon is completely different.

 

[kirblar]

It isn't queerbaiting if they are in a relationship. The page literally says including The 100 is debatable. And that is on a page already including examples of fans wishing for a relationship like Sherlock and Supernatural while canon is completely different.

The Mary Sue article on why Clarke "doesn't count" feels like it was spot-on, unfortunately. They didn't "bait" her character- she's full on bi. The relationship w/ Lexa was what had a Bait and Switch, but that was not about them "not actually being gay."

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

It isn't queerbaiting if they are in a relationship. The page literally says including The 100 is debatable. And that is on a page already including examples of fans wishing for a relationship like Sherlock and Supernatural while canon is completely different.

What the actual fuck?

It doesn't matter if they're having hot sex in a tree, or playing Scrabble amidst Lexa's three billion candles; if there's romantic intent, it's queerbaiting. Jesus Christ.

 

[Joni]

What the actual fuck?

It doesn't matter if they're having hot sex in a tree, or playing Scrabble amidst Lexa's three billion candles; if there's romantic intent, it's queerbaiting. Jesus Christ.

You literally quoted the article that says it is adding homoerotic tension when there is no intention of them getting together. They got together, there was a relationship. The fact they killed Lexa doesn't make it suddenly adhere to the definition.

However, as the characters were in a canon romantic relationship, it is debatable whether or not this example falls under the heading of queer baiting.

As this definition states, a queer relationship or character is hinted at to attract/appeal to the queer market, and then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship), playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope), or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) without modifying the character's behavior.

Stuff from the exact link you posted.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

You literally quoted the article that says it is adding homoerotic tension when there is no intention of them getting together. They got together, there was a relationship.

Getting together as in making it actually fucking last, not killing them off three minutes later.

Stop pulling hairs.

EDIT: The relationship was denied, no? They banged and then Lexa died. The end. Saying that because they got together it isn't queerbaiting is honestly the most dismissive and illogical argument I have ever heard.

 

[Joni]

Getting together as in making it actually fucking last, not killing them off three minutes later.

Stop pulling hairs.

She is still bi, they haven't changed that, they are treating her as a valid bi character. Just like they always treated Lexa as a lesbian. While the page YOU quoted LITERALLY says it involves adding homoerotic tension without following through on it.

EDIT: The relationship was denied, no? They banged and then Lexa died. The end.

It is an abrupt and sad ending to the relationship, but that is not what it means according to the definition you brought up.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

She is still bi, they haven't changed that, they are treating her as a valid bi character. Just like they always treated Lexa as a lesbian. While the page YOU quoted LITERALLY says it involves adding homoerotic tension without following through on it.



It is an abrupt and sad ending to the relationship, but that is not what it means according to the definition you brought up.

Saying that because they had sex it isn't queerbaiting is honestly the most dismissive and illogical argument I have ever heard. It literally only strengthens the concept of "building the relationship and then pulling a "LOL JUST KIDDING HERE HAVE SOME DEAD LESBIANS."

 

[Joni]

Saying that because they had sex it isn't queerbaiting is honestly the most dismissive and illogical argument I have ever heard. It literally only strengthens the concept of "building the relationship and then pulling a "LOL JUST KIDDING HERE HAVE SOME DEAD LESBIANS."

You are referencing an article that says queerbaiting is adding homoerotic tensions without following through on it, brushing it off as jokes or just ignoring it. They aren't doing that. For instance, to reference another blowout from a couple of years back: Erica Hahn on Grey's Anatomy. Callie still ended up in a relationship, they did have sex, they did follow through on it, ... They just wrote out a lesbian character in a bad and unappreciated way, ending her relationship with the main bi character. It was dropping a character for production reasons, in that case network problems and in this case story/timing. That wasn't queerbaiting, this isn't either unless they fuck up the coming episodes.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

You are referencing an article that says queerbaiting is adding homoerotic tensions without following through on it, brushing it off as jokes or just ignoring it. They aren't doing that. For instance, to reference another blowout from a couple of years back: Erica Hahn on Grey's Anatomy. Callie still ended up in a relationship, they did have sex, they did follow through on it, ... They just wrote out a lesbian character in a bad and unappreciated way. That wasn't queerbaiting, this isn't either unless they fuck up the coming episodes.

But....it's not....limited.....to.....just......playing.....it......off.....as.....a......joke.....???????????????????????

And about that Grey's Anatomy character...yes, that is queerbaiting. I don't know what to tell you man. Keep living in your own bubble of denial I guess.

 

[Somnia]

Ok I'm putting this all in spoilers because it has season finale mentions, but it's regarding the above discussion.

Spoiler

The fact Jason, the show runner, invited fans to come watch them film the finale which had Clarke and Lexa together on set. They were hugging, fighting together, etc. which in turn leads you to believe that they will make it to the end. Showing Lexa and Clarke get together and then ripping that away within a commercial break is some major queerbaiting I'm sorry.

Sure not everyone knew about this, but the LGBTQ fans took this as a sign that things would be different. Obviously if Jason would not have invited the fans to come to the set and watch this there wouldn't have been as many expectations that they'd make it.

Just an example.

 

[Joni]

But....it's not....limited.....to.....just......playing.....it......off.....as.....a......joke.....???????????????????????

Again, the thing you posted:
Then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship) - NO. Lexa was still lesbian, CLarke still bi
playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope) - NO. A real relationship.
or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) - NO. Confirmed everywhere.

And about that Grey's Anatomy character...yes, that is queerbaiting. I don't know what to tell you man. Keep living in your own bubble of denial I guess.

Even though afterwards they added two more lesbian characters for her to date/marry, including one that is a lead for seven years and counting now? It was a decision motivated by reasons not related to either of them being bi/lesbian.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Again, the thing you posted:
Then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship) - NO. Lexa was still lesbian, CLarke still bi
playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope) - NO. A real relationship.
or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) - NO. Confirmed everywhere.

Literally none of this matters anymore. She's fucking dead.

Edit: but if you wanna be anal about it, the change is in their relationship, not the characters themselves. Which is to say...you can't have a relationship with a corpse.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

So uh,

What do you all think of the main story so far and where it's headed? Anyone think Bellamy will become a double/triple agent? Also does v2 of the chip help a person remember their memories? And what will happen to Murphy in his current situation?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

So uh,

What do you all think of the main story so far and where it's headed? Anyone think Bellamy will become a double/triple agent? Also does v2 of the chip help a person remember their memories? Also, what will happen to Murphy in his current situation?

Everything happening at Arkadia is absolute garbage other than Raven telling everyone to stop being fucking stupid.

Bellamy is irredeemable. His days are numbered.

Murphy is gonna be there for my baby girl Clarke and give her the biggest fucking hug and then he's gonna help her get that AI chip and have her become Commander.

With the AI, memories of each recipient are stored in it so all of Lexa's memories from when she got it up until her death are in it.

 

[Joni]

So uh,

What do you all think of the main story so far and where it's headed? Anyone think Bellamy will become a double/triple agent? Also does v2 of the chip help a person remember their memories? And what will happen to Murphy in his current situation?

It is not a chip error. ALIE is evil, she is doing it in purpose. The new version probably doesn't. At least that is how I see it.

 

[Somnia]

So uh,

What do you all think of the main story so far and where it's headed? Anyone think Bellamy will become a double/triple agent? Also does v2 of the chip help a person remember their memories? And what will happen to Murphy in his current situation?

I like how they are integrating both stories with the AI's and I like where it's heading with Raven, even though I feel bad for her

Bellamy is beyond repairable for me right now I think, him killing those messengers put him over the edge for me, I know they are going to give him a redemption story, but I hope it's not some easy thing.

Murphy I have no idea where he is going to go story wise, honestly no clue.

 

[Beefy]

Still don't see how people can say Bellamy's days are numbered. We already know he is switching to be a good guy again. He will be fine.

 

[Somnia]

Still don't see how people can say Bellamy's days are numbered. We already know he is switching to be a good guy again. He will be fine.

I don't think he'll die, but I don't think he'll go back to being some pure good guy.

 

[Beefy]

I don't think he'll die, but I don't think he'll go back to being some pure good guy.

I can. The way I view the show atm is Bellamy and Clarke are the main leads and this is their story.

 

[Joni]

I think we already lost all good guys when Monty and Clarke killed everyone in Mount Weather.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Still don't see how people can say Bellamy's days are numbered. We already know he is switching to be a good guy again. He will be fine.

He will never be accepted by Trikru as an ally, and once Pike gets what's coming to him, Bellamy will be on the outs, no matter how hard he tries to redeem himself.

 

[Somnia]

I can. The way I view the show atm is Bellamy and Clarke are the main leads and this is their story.

Ya the only two characters with death proof armor are Bellamy and Clarke IMO. I just don't see Bellamy immediately being forgiven by everyone and being back in everyone's graces. He's going to be "redeemed" for some sure, but that doesn't change his outlook on the Grounders or how the Grounders will look at him. He just doesn't like how Pike is running things, there's a difference.

I think we already lost all good guys when Monty and Clarke and Bellamy killed everyone in Mount Weather.

Fixed

 

[Joni]

Bellamy started as a bad guy.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

And is still a bad guy.

 

[Somnia]

Bellamy started as a bad guy.

Started bad, became good and is now bad again. He was definitely a "good" guy in season 2.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Bellamy will be redeemed - hell we know he will lead Skycrew at some point, they have nobody else.

 

[Somnia]

Bellamy will be redeemed - hell we know he will lead Skycrew at some point, they have nobody else.

Clarke will rule Skaikru and the Grounders as Commander

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Bellamy will be redeemed - hell we know he will lead Skycrew at some point, they have nobody else.

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Bellamy will be redeemed - hell we know he will lead Skycrew at some point, they have nobody else.

Kane? Assuming he doesn't kick the bucket in the next few episodes. Clarke is likely going to come back to Arkadia eventually too, there's nothing left for her at Polis.

 

[figadapaura]

Nobody else lol. Why would anybody follow him after what he's done?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Kane? Assuming he doesn't kick the bucket in the next few episodes. Clarke is likely going to come back to Arkadia eventually too, there's nothing left for her at Polis.

shut up that's not true she's gonna be Heda