OuterLimits
Member
I didn't watch the debate because I was at work. I read some articles saying Hillary had a strange answer using 9/11 to defend her Wall Street donations? Is that true, and was it a blunder on her part?
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The 2nd Democratic National Primary Debate
- Thread starter kingkitty
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the twitter posts are actually midichlorians
eBay Huckster
Member
activated by typing the phrase "political revolution"
Angelus Errare
Banned
Republicans didn't want to negotiate they wanted to obstruct and have openly said so AFAIK
I'm talking from personal experience and what successful union people and politicians tell me when they give us lectures.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Right, Obamacare was not a major part of the losses in 2010, okay. Even if I conceded this point for arguments sake though, all I have to do is point to 2014. Sanders is not going to be uniquely immune to the inherent challenges of our political system and I see no point of differentiation between the folly of his calls for revolution and Obama's (or Occupy Wall Street for that matter). It's not a campaign to say everything you want to accomplish is contingent on a never-before-seen political revolution and that the responsibility for getting that done is the voters' problem and not your own.
Yup. She used that as justification for receiving donations. It was a disgusting moment.
MrOogieBoogie
BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
O'Malley surprised me with some very sensible arguments, and I found myself actually rooting for him during several moments. Still, he doesn't instill confidence in me and I could never really imagine him as a president.
Sanders, sadly, didn't instill much confidence in me tonight either. His non-specificity is really getting to me, and it's never been quite as evident as it was tonight. I favored Clinton and her arguments on the issues of gun control and health insurance. I still don't even fully understand Sanders' position on gun control. His failure to narrow down a tax on the wealthy was embarrassing. His repetitive "We need to stand up!" talking point became extremely grating after the fifth time.
I'm overly critical of Sanders only because I was pulling for him up until tonight, but I found him lacking in the debate. Clinton, despite several missteps, handled tonight's opposition admirably. It seemed like everyone was throwing everything but the kitchen sink at her and she stayed her ground while making sense, and that's the most important quality of a candidate, in my opinion.
Sanders, sadly, didn't instill much confidence in me tonight either. His non-specificity is really getting to me, and it's never been quite as evident as it was tonight. I favored Clinton and her arguments on the issues of gun control and health insurance. I still don't even fully understand Sanders' position on gun control. His failure to narrow down a tax on the wealthy was embarrassing. His repetitive "We need to stand up!" talking point became extremely grating after the fifth time.
I'm overly critical of Sanders only because I was pulling for him up until tonight, but I found him lacking in the debate. Clinton, despite several missteps, handled tonight's opposition admirably. It seemed like everyone was throwing everything but the kitchen sink at her and she stayed her ground while making sense, and that's the most important quality of a candidate, in my opinion.
Certain groups of Republicans won't negotiate with any Democrat, regardless of who they are. No one on stage tonight can say they'll be the exception when it comes to negotiating with Republicans.
That's another problem with Sanders' idealism. It's to the point where he can't even communicate how to achieve it with any substance.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Shhhh, Bernie fans are the only lunatics here, bro. Hilary fans are the most rational people that's got it all figured out.
The funny thing is, one of the reasons I don't like Hilary are her crazy supporters. They're the ones who are really fueling my disliking of Hilary more. Sure, I agree with Bernie more, but I don't mind voting for Hilary if she gets the general election vote. Just that her supporter are some of the most obnoxious people out there.
Then you shouldnt imply that Sanders would get a 12 dollar minimum wage when he asked for 15 and Hilary would get a 10 when she asked for 12.
And the problem with Sanders proposals, at least in Republican eyes, is that they are just so ridiculous and absurd that there is no basis for negotiation. With Hilary's proposals, there is a basis for negotiation and compromise. Now, I am certainly not saying that that is going to happen, but things might change. Republicans might find it in their interest to actually govern in the next 8 years. If that slim possibility actually happens, Hilary actually has proposals that might actually be put into law after some modification and compromise. Bernie? Not really.
And I'd be alarmed if they did. "We'll reach across the isle to work out a plan with Lindsey Graham". What kind of asshole wants to hear any democratic candidate say that on pretty much any issue?
You are confusing cynicism/realism with disagreement. I think everyone here would love it if everyone voted, but that is not going to happen. Just like Bernie's revolution does not seem like it is going to happen.
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone's saying that. People may be being a bit sarcastic here because they're a bit bitter about it, but I think people here are actually lamenting the fact that younger people don't vote as much as older people.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
On a personal level, I have O'Malley > Sanders > Clinton on this debate.
Objectively speaking though, Clinton did the best. She is amazing at the big stage, she turned the wall street around by taking it to a personal level as opposed to addressing the real issue. I was impressed by how she handling that by not really addressing the issue, to be honest.
Question unrelated to this debate, one of the people in the watch party mentioned that he voted for Obama in the primaries in '08 because, among other reasons, Clinton was against freedom of expression, specifically mentioning videogames. I didn't ask, but what does that mean? Was she like that FL lawyer that wanted to outlaw GTAV and other violent videogames?
Objectively speaking though, Clinton did the best. She is amazing at the big stage, she turned the wall street around by taking it to a personal level as opposed to addressing the real issue. I was impressed by how she handling that by not really addressing the issue, to be honest.
Question unrelated to this debate, one of the people in the watch party mentioned that he voted for Obama in the primaries in '08 because, among other reasons, Clinton was against freedom of expression, specifically mentioning videogames. I didn't ask, but what does that mean? Was she like that FL lawyer that wanted to outlaw GTAV and other violent videogames?
Officerrob
Banned
Who sees millennials voting as something bad (besides Republicans)? There is a vast difference between thinking it's ridiculous that young people are going to start going to the polls like the elderly and thinking mellennials voting is something bad
You are making stuff up now, there is always basis for negotiation depending on how much you want to give in. You make it seem like $3 is some astronomical difference for the republicans. Sanders simply has the safest position for a real hike in the minimum wage.
Bit of a blunder, yeah. The twitter post over the stage had me falling over though.
I feel like it's extremely necessary to point out that when income inequality is as bad of an issue as it is today and actually getting worse-- and you have the other party basically in agreement that we need to lower taxes on everyone, then we should not start negotiating welfare programs, free education, universal healthcare, taxes, etc from a weak position. We have consistently been failing to do anything about this problem when it seems like the European countries have got it figured out.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Uhh, I think you're the one confused here. No one has said anything remotely close to that
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I was honestly going into this debate tonight to give Sanders a chance to win me over. I was hoping that Sanders could explain to me why I should support him. I wanted him to outline specific plans and measures to get some of the things he's talking about accomplished. He simply did not do that. In fact he failed spectacularly. Specifically by not being able to narrow down a tax rate on the 1%. It's a major part of his campaign and he swung and missed. It was embarrassing.
I think if I was in my 20's and didn't have almost 20 years of following politics behind me maybe I wouldn't be so critical of his campaign. But I know enough about how the country works to understand his campaign is not based in reality. Even he is counting on a 'political revolution' to make his presidency relevant.
... Weren't you just blaming millenials for not showing up though? So now that he's saying people need to get out and do something it's a problem?
Bernie's ability to generate enthusiasm was always going to be harder because he didn't have the benefit of running after George W. Without going into theories about how exactly 2010 would have turned out, because nobody really knows, Obama would have a lot more support now if the economic stimulus was stronger in the few years he had to pull it off.
Back in the day Hillary was all about video game violence being a problem, it was part of her platform. Video game censorship. So yeah, she was on that bandwagon.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
There's a difference between saying people should vote and arguing that a political revolution that you're not responsible for will accomplish all your goals. Of course people should vote, that's a great ideal to strive for, but it's not a campaign slogan or a selling point for a candidate, it goes without saying. Anyone could accomplish things if they have a revolution backing them, but revolutions don't come just because you say they will. It can help rile up support in a general election, but it's fleeting (see Obama).
If you're talking about this exchange:
It was a testy response but I thought my bracket sentence made it obvious I wasn't speaking literally.
To the broader point:
Going to your boss and asking for a 200% raise is not a good negotiating tactic. That is basically analogous to what the Republicans feel towards Bernie's proposals.
The safest position is to demand a hike in the minimum wage and a hike in the EITC. The EITC is something that the Republicans have gone on record of actually wanting to increase. You have to include something that the other person actually wants in the proposal to get things going. With the raise, the implicit want for the employer is you continuing to work there. The republicans arent on record of being in favor of increasing the minimum wage at all. In fact, a number of them are on record in favor of abolishing it.
Your Entertainer
Member
I think with how far to the right the GOP and American politics in general has gone, anything short of a right-skewed position (right of center-right) will be seen as "radical left" by the GOP and not worthy of compromise. Bernie even being in the conversation moves the discussion far to the left of where it would have been, and puts better options on the table that would under no circumstances would have been there otherwise. In my opinion that's what we need and what will be the first step in shifting the national stage back leftwards to reality and sensible solutions.
You're still looking to vote for one of the two major parties, so even where you are now there's still some naivete left eh? Anyway, most Americans are realistic when it comes to politics - they don't vote.
What's really naive is thinking that both parties are the same.
OuterLimits
Member
Trump is funny on Twitter. Says Hillary and Sanders not doing well, and why is the failed mayor of Baltimore on the stage. O'Malley is a clown
BoboBrazil
Member
If minimum wage is $15/hr will every job that makes more than that now also get an increase?
It's not naivete. It's called choosing the lesser of two evils. I vote Democrat because they are the only ones who can beat Republicans.
I think Hillary's greatest fault, and strength, is that she's a politician and acts like one.
She knows that to get things done, to navigate politics, and to get elected... you have to be pragmatic, you have to be negotiable, you have to flip flop at times, you have to tell people what they want to hear sometimes, you have to get large donations.
Unfortunately, this makes her come off as too fake, or too practiced, or not willing to go far enough, etc. She comes off as a politician, because she is one.
So it both helps and hurts her.
She knows that to get things done, to navigate politics, and to get elected... you have to be pragmatic, you have to be negotiable, you have to flip flop at times, you have to tell people what they want to hear sometimes, you have to get large donations.
Unfortunately, this makes her come off as too fake, or too practiced, or not willing to go far enough, etc. She comes off as a politician, because she is one.
So it both helps and hurts her.
This is why I don't think the biggest problem in American politics is money and lobbyists, but primaries and elections. Our election system is geared towards politicians trying to appeal to their base because it is the base that gets them nominated. Getting money out of politics would be fantastic, but that still wouldnt change the need for politicians to appeal to their bases to stay in office.
This has gotten worse recently due to the rise of safe districts. Most districts are not competitive anymore, so the only real threat to these politicians are primaries, and only the committed base votes in primaries. That is a huge huge problem, and I think the main reason why we see such gridlock and polarization in politics.
I'd like to see primary reform like top 2 (or it just gotten ride of), or something like ranked voting in the actual election. Or any reform that forces politicians to appeal to the middle.
As you might have guessed, I don't think pushing the conversation left will really do anything. All it will do is make things more polarized than before, because I highly doubt that any republican or conservative is going to get pulled left with that.
Not really what I was getting at. They're not the same on various issues that people feel strongly about, though those often aren't big issues that effect day to day life. My point was, having faith in either party is naive. Voting for either of them is an inherently naive act due to the nature of the our current political system. I've done it myself, and I may do it again, and that won't change what I'm saying.
You write that as if it was the solution. Lesser of two evils thinking isn't going to get anyone a pat on the back from me.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
What are the big issues that effect every day life?
You must be truly blessed if nothing that happens politically ever changes your life.
I'm late on the debate but other then the crazy 9/11 gaffe, my biggest issue was one I worried about for a while, Hillary is going to indirectly cannabalize her own grass root and mainstream support for herself and the Democratic party by shitting on ideas of Bernie's as too radical.
Her trying to frame Bernie's single payer idea as radical, bureaucracy run amok and championing the current, very flawed legislation is hurting her own cause long term.
In other areas she differentiated herself by being liberal but more detailed orientated. When it came to healthcare she uses the sort of conservative pandering approach that poisoned the well for liberals for so long on so many issues.
Her trying to frame Bernie's single payer idea as radical, bureaucracy run amok and championing the current, very flawed legislation is hurting her own cause long term.
In other areas she differentiated herself by being liberal but more detailed orientated. When it came to healthcare she uses the sort of conservative pandering approach that poisoned the well for liberals for so long on so many issues.
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
About midway through watching it. Hillary randomly bringing up 9/11 reminded me of Family Guy.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I had that exact thought. That tweet is probably the best use of social media in a debate ever.
Regardless who won, this was the best managed of the debates by far. CNBC comes in at second.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
The problem isn't politicians representing heir base. It's gerrymandering
Pretty much the exact opposite for me. All Sanders did was pander with promises that will never be fulfilled.
Yep, this is how I see her as well. She plays the game extremely well.
Why is it a bigger problem?
Politicians representing their base is the biggest problem, because the base of the republican and democratic party are just so far a part from each other that compromise is unlikely. What is worse is that the the base of the republican party has a hard on for ideological purity and not compromising with the enemy (democrats). That is the reason why we have deadlock and is the reason why nothing gets done, because we elect people who can't get anything done due to our electoral system.
I've already acknowledged that gerrymandering is a contributing problem due to the creation of safe districts that has just exacerbated the problem greatly, but even if we made those districts more competitive, the nominating process of those districts will still be in the hands of the base, and the politician will be either far more right or far more left than the actual residents, and will feel compelled to appeal to his base.
Granted, in competitive districts he will have to worry about the general election a lot more, but I have already admitted that safe districts caused by gerrymandering is big problem. I will also note that there are a number of districts that there is no way to make competitive. And the only way to make them competitive is to have some sort of top 2 or ranked voting system.
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