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[AlphaSnake]

I love watching Jay Leno's Garage.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/custom-built/quotfast-fivequot-picture-cars/



The only voice of reason in this thread.

I'd rather have a TSX. The RSX has not aged gracefully, at all.

 

[ecnal]

Honestly, with MPG in mind, I'd skip all of that and save 8-13k by buying a used '08-10 WRX hatch for $20-22k.

What's the point of spending extra for a daily driver that gets better MPG when you could've spent that 8-13k on gas for something cheaper that doesn't get quite as good mileage? Ask yourself if you'd rather have 8k+ in your pocket or the ability to POTENTIALLY save more gas over a long, gonna-trade-it-in-before-you-reach-the-break-even span of time.

Also, all of those are hideous/lame other than the A3 TDI.

The focus on MPG is superfluous if you're spending EXTRA to get more MPG.

If your main focus is on saving gas and saving money while still getting a fun DD, pick up an 05-06 Acura RSX Type-S for $15k. Looks sweet, will run forever, and gets awesome gas mileage for such a fun car (I once got 500 miles out of a 13 gallon tank of gas in my RSX). And the interior is very classy if you're an interior-whore.

so if you were looking for a $30-35K daily driver that's a 5-door-hatch/small wagon/wagon with utility and mpg in mind, you would get an rsx?

great post, will read again.

 

[Zyzyxxz]

so if you were looking for a $30-35K daily driver that's a 5-door-hatch/small wagon/wagon with utility and mpg in mind, you would get an rsx?

great post, will read again.

LOL I love how he coaxed him into reading the post and then suddenly its RSX.

If space is not too much of a concern I would consider the Ford Fiesta or Honda Fit.

 

[Ovid]

Ok Fancypants Auto-GAF,

It seems that auto-gaf may be a bit BMW biased, but I will ask this here anyway. Let's say you are looking for something in the $60-70k, classy, and you are a single young guy with a good finance job, living in Downtown Miami.

Which one of these 3 would you go for?


MERCEDEZ E-CLASS

This.

 

[reilo]

Me likes...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/24/maserati-granturismo-mc-for-north-america-unveiled/

 

[BoobPhysics101]

so if you were looking for a $30-35K daily driver that's a 5-door-hatch/small wagon/wagon with utility and mpg in mind, you would get an rsx?

great post, will read again.

Like I said, an RSX or newer WRX.

Again, what is the point of spending extra for a daily driver to get better MPG if the price premium negates any savings in gas?

If it has to be between the 3 he listed, I'd say a normal A3. Why spend the extra for the TDI when you could put it towards gas?

Don't criticize me for being logical. I listed not only an alternative that fits his criteria but would SAVE him quite a bit of money, I also offered an alternative that's $20k less.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Me likes...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/24/maserati-granturismo-mc-for-north-america-unveiled/

Big meh from me. Some girl I used to be involved with had a ballin' mom with a Maserati GT. While it's a nice looking car, the driving dynamics/spirit of the car leave something to be desired. Definitely not worth its price tag in my eyes, all of the competing cars in its price range make it seem relatively tame.

 

[Stinkles]

Me likes...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/24/maserati-granturismo-mc-for-north-america-unveiled/

I still think it looks like a Ferrari had a baby with a G37, and don't really like it, but white with black wheels is niiiiice.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I still think it looks like a Ferrari had a baby with a G37, and don't really like it, but white with black wheels is niiiiice.

amazing how white became the new black. but it has.

 

[Stinkles]

So none of you noticed he posted a pic of a 3-series and not a 5-series?

Pretty embarrassing.

I'd pick none of those and get the new A6 or A7. The new 5-series steers like an absolute train wreck thanks to its electric power steering pump.

All of us noticed I expect. And high five on telling him the correct alternatives. And again, in Miami, with that budget? S5 vertible.

Just. Think. Of. All. The. Ladies.

 

[Vicetrailia]

So this guy wants to sell me a 2002 Celica for 3,500.

I haven't heard the engine yet but he's now putting in a used transmission that has 65k miles on it.

The rotors look rusty (brake pads looked good though) so I asked him to change those and he did. I'm just worried about the Cat Converter since they are known to have issues there.

Think I should jump on it if the engine sounds nice (and timing belt sounds good)? The body has no faults.

 

[mkenyon]

Continuing my search, I went and drove a Juke. The fact that I can get a fully equipped interior for the same price as the non-leather WRX is very very tempting to me. They're pretty sweet little cars. No where near the getup or handling of a WRX, but very capable nonetheless. Anyone have a chance to drive one yet?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Just. Think. Of. All. The. Ladies.

people still try to use cars to pick up chicks? if you have no game before the car, you'll have none with the car.

 

[mkenyon]

people still try to use cars to pick up chicks? if you have no game before the car, you'll have none with the car.

I had a 2000 Jeep Wrangler Sport in high school. Can't tell you how many times during the summer finishing the date in the back seat under the stars sealed the deal.

 

[Zyzyxxz]

Like I said, an RSX or newer WRX.

Again, what is the point of spending extra for a daily driver to get better MPG if the price premium negates any savings in gas?

If it has to be between the 3 he listed, I'd say a normal A3. Why spend the extra for the TDI when you could put it towards gas?

Don't criticize me for being logical. I listed not only an alternative that fits his criteria but would SAVE him quite a bit of money, I also offered an alternative that's $20k less.

WRX may be the logical choice but RSX is far from it.

Good mileage? Yes.

Practical? Not really. Obviously he is looking for a 4-door car and while I do agree that spending more soley for gas saving purposes is not smart I don't think he's looking for a coupe right now.

 

[Stinkles]

people still try to use cars to pick up chicks? if you have no game before the car, you'll have none with the car.

Nonsense. Maybe in some towns. Maybe even in most. But Miami is lousy with women who're absolutely immune to charisma, but not immune to convertibles.

 

[ecnal]

Like I said, an RSX or newer WRX.

Again, what is the point of spending extra for a daily driver to get better MPG if the price premium negates any savings in gas?

If it has to be between the 3 he listed, I'd say a normal A3. Why spend the extra for the TDI when you could put it towards gas?

Don't criticize me for being logical. I listed not only an alternative that fits his criteria but would SAVE him quite a bit of money, I also offered an alternative that's $20k less.

while i appreciate the WRX hatch suggestion, an RSX doesn't even meet an explicit requirement: 5-door hatch/small wagon/wagon. moreover, a WRX as a daily driver isn't particularly ideal. i should probably consider an outback though...

i'm also confused why you constantly reference savings, as it was never mentioned as a motivation for getting another car. if i were concerned with saving, i'd forego the daily driver and just put more miles on my current vehicle -- that would net me $30-35K worth of savings. however, the aforementioned is not possible for the foreseeable future because the vehicle will be in and out of the shop/tuner.

i'm essentially looking for other suggestions that i may have missed -- a la an outback -- that are good daily drivers (MPG + utility [see wagon] + comfort) in the $30-35K range. the focus isn't necessarily MPG; it would just be nice to have a vehicle that gets good gas mileage -- imo part of the implied convenience of a daily driver.

If space is not too much of a concern I would consider the Ford Fiesta or Honda Fit.

i actually wouldn't mind a fit, but it doesn't have the cargo capacity i'm looking for.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I had a 2000 Jeep Wrangler Sport in high school. Can't tell you how many times during the summer finishing the date in the back seat under the stars sealed the deal.

but you already had her in the car.

the panties wanted to come off because you were *the man* already. seeing the stars only provided the convenient excuse. If you were lame, no number of stars would have helped.

Nonsense. Maybe in some towns. Maybe even in most Miami is lousy with women who're absolutely immune to charisma, but not immune to convertibles.

 

[Stinkles]

i actually wouldn't mind a fit, but it doesn't have the cargo capacity i'm looking for.

I have a Fit and it holds FAR more cargo than my CX7. With the back seats folded, it's practically a van. And don't forget the "Magic Seats"


SHIT IS BANANAS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI0MOtbFAGI

 

[Zyzyxxz]

In 2012 Hyundai has the Sonata Wagon coming out, most likely with a hybrid variant too?

Also Kia may develop their version of a Kia wagon with a hybrid most likely as well. Both would probably come well equipped and still be under your budget.

If it looked anything like this I would be down for one:

Otherwise out of the 3 I would take the A3 TDI for sure.

 

[mkenyon]

while i appreciate the WRX hatch suggestion, an RSX doesn't even meet an explicit requirement: 5-door hatch/small wagon/wagon. moreover, a WRX as a daily driver isn't particularly ideal. i should probably consider an outback though...

i'm also confused why you constantly reference savings, as it was never mentioned as a motivation for getting another car. if i were concerned with saving, i'd forego the daily driver and just put more miles on my current vehicle -- that would net me $30-35K worth of savings. however, the aforementioned is not possible for the foreseeable future because the vehicle will be in and out of the shop/tuner.

i'm essentially looking for other suggestions that i may have missed -- a la an outback -- that are good daily drivers (MPG + utility [see wagon] + comfort) in the $30-35K range. the focus isn't necessarily MPG; it would just be nice to have a vehicle that gets good gas mileage -- imo part of the implied convience of a daily driver.



i actually wouldn't mind a fit, but it doesn't have the cargo capacity i'm looking for.

I went 2004 WRX (stolen), 2005 WRX, and then sold it for a 2007 Outback LL Bean Edition. I got way better gas mileage in my WRX. I'm now going to sell it for a brand new WRX Wagon (erm, I mean, hatch). They're awesome daily drivers, especially if you're in an area that has crappy weather. Here in the PAC NW, I have fun no matter what time of year it is thanks to the AWD.

 

[Pterion]

people still try to use cars to pick up chicks?

ihavebeendoingitwrong.gif

 

[reilo]

I use chicks to pickup cars.

Go to a dealer dressed up nice and fancy with a hot girl on your arm, and watch the rebates and deals fly in.

Think about it.

 

[ecnal]

In 2012 Hyundai has the Sonata Wagon coming out, most likely with a hybrid variant too?

Also Kia may develop their version of a Kia wagon with a hybrid most likely as well. Both would probably come well equipped and still be under your budget.

If it looked anything like this I would be down for one:
http://www.joelfeder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Kia_Optima_Sporty_Wagon_rear-copy.jpg[IMG]

Otherwise out of the 3 I would take the A3 TDI for sure.[/QUOTE]

wow, that kia wagon looks nice. gonna have to look into those.

ya, i'm basically leaning towards the A3 TDI or TSX wagon.

i've heard the TSX wagons have already been underperforming sales wise too, so i might be able to find a deal on one.

[QUOTE=mkenyon]I went 2004 WRX (stolen), 2005 WRX, and then sold it for a 2007 Outback LL Bean Edition. I got way better gas mileage in my WRX. I'm now going to sell it for a brand new WRX Wagon (erm, I mean, hatch). They're awesome daily drivers, especially if you're in an area that has crappy weather. Here in the PAC NW, I have fun no matter what time of year it is thanks to the AWD.[/QUOTE]

so other than the gas mileage on the outback, any other issues? how do you like it overall?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Think fast: '08 Black-Black Carerra 4S.

$64,991. I think the mileage was around 30k.

Just came in last week and was certified over the weekend. Yea or nay?

 

[reilo]

Think fast: '08 Black-Black Carerra 4S.

$64,991. I think the mileage was around 30k.

Just came in last week and was certified over the weekend. Yea or nay?

Hrmm. What's the mileage?

Also, wouldn't it be more prudent to go after the refreshed 09 Carrera S with the direct fuel-injection and higher displacement?

Although, doing a quick search near me (different parts of the country, I know) that seems to be a good price for a '08 4S especially if it's certified.

 

[SpecX]

In 2012 Hyundai has the Sonata Wagon coming out, most likely with a hybrid variant too?

Also Kia may develop their version of a Kia wagon with a hybrid most likely as well. Both would probably come well equipped and still be under your budget.

If it looked anything like this I would be down for one:
http://www.joelfeder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Kia_Optima_Sporty_Wagon_rear-copy.jpg[IMG]

Otherwise out of the 3 I would take the A3 TDI for sure.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, that's one of the best wagons I've seen and would even consider buying. Last wagon to make me actually want to purchase one was the Magnum.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Big meh from me. Some girl I used to be involved with had a ballin' mom with a Maserati GT. While it's a nice looking car, the driving dynamics/spirit of the car leave something to be desired. Definitely not worth its price tag in my eyes, all of the competing cars in its price range make it seem relatively tame.

Yep. The Gran Turismo is horrifically overpriced. Beautiful, sure. But so slow. My 370Z would destroy both a Gran Turismo and Gran Turismo S. No sports car north of $120K should be beaten by a Japanese sports car that retails $30K base.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Hrmm. What's the mileage?

Also, wouldn't it be more prudent to go after the refreshed 09 Carrera S with the direct fuel-injection and higher displacement?

Although, doing a quick search near me (different parts of the country, I know) that seems to be a good price for a '08 4S especially if it's certified.

I think it had about 30,000 miles on it. Waiting for a call back on that, as I can't remember.

and yea...that 09 refresh brought a performance boost as well as PDK. But damn...a all-wheel drive S...that's $100,000 new.

 

[reilo]

I think it had about 30,000 miles on it. Waiting for a call back on that, as I can't remember.

and yea...that 09 refresh brought a performance boost as well as PDK. But damn...a all-wheel drive S...that's $100,000 new.

I've seen 09 4S listings for ~$80k. That can surely be negotiated to mid-70k, maybe?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I've seen 09 4S listings for ~$80k. That can surely be negotiated to mid-70k, maybe?

possibly. I'll be finding out how low this black-black 4S can go too.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

So this guy wants to sell me a 2002 Celica for 3,500.

I haven't heard the engine yet but he's now putting in a used transmission that has 65k miles on it.

The rotors look rusty (brake pads looked good though) so I asked him to change those and he did. I'm just worried about the Cat Converter since they are known to have issues there.

Think I should jump on it if the engine sounds nice (and timing belt sounds good)? The body has no faults.

I'd be very, very careful with that. Why is he putting in a new transmission? An '02 Celica shouldn't need a new tranny just yet.

A friend of mine bought like an '02-'03 Celica GT 5 spd... the engine on that thing is a piece of shit, totally abused and dying. I suggest you check it very carefully because I wouldn't be surprised if that thing is FUBAR.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

WRX may be the logical choice but RSX is far from it.

Good mileage? Yes.

Practical? Not really. Obviously he is looking for a 4-door car and while I do agree that spending more soley for gas saving purposes is not smart I don't think he's looking for a coupe right now.

I suggested the RSX because it's a 3 door hatchback. Other than not having 4 doors, it's a very practical car.

It was just a thought.

 

[reilo]

What's the point of getting a RSX? It's just a more expensive Civic. And the interior is nothing to be proud of.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Lol thanks for all the feedback, even NAZIcar GAF on the series 5 thingy (I was duped by google image once moarrr)

The 2012 A7 is definitely a sexy beast, so I'll take that one into account. I might even save a bit more and go for the A8! Other than that, I'm still leaning towards the Mercedez.

 

[reilo]

possibly. I'll be finding out how low this black-black 4S can go too.

Are you willing to fly out for the right car? Seeing a fully loaded '07 with 26k miles for same price near me.

EDIT: Also seeing a 07 Targa 4S with 36k miles for $58k.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

What's the point of getting a RSX? It's just a more expensive Civic. And the interior is nothing to be proud of.

Actually, a Civic (Si) is just a weaksauce RSX-S, and rides on a different platform. Some significant differences between them.

The interior is very nice for its price, that's for sure. Also, I'm not sure how many NA 4 cylinders out there can put out 240-270 whp all motor and still throw down 35+ MPG on the highway.

And whoever said the Fit has incredible interior room for its size, YES. It's insane.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Lol thanks for all the feedback, even NAZIcar GAF on the series 5 thingy (I was duped by google image once moarrr)

The 2012 A7 is definitely a sexy beast, so I'll take that one into account. I might even save a bit more and go for the A8! Other than that, I'm still leaning towards the Mercedez.

I'd skip the C63 AMG. While it's a nice car, I think it's a bit overpriced (plus the reliability is awful)... you might want to check out an 06-11 BMW M5. That V10 is to die for, and the M5 has some of the best seats ever made. Dat lumbar support! The M5 has even better seats than the NSX, and the NSX stock seats are amazing.


Also, I think you can get a nice M5 for around $40-50k...

 

[ecnal]

Actually, a Civic (Si) is just a weaksauce RSX-S, and rides on a different platform. Some significant differences between them.

The interior is very nice for its price, that's for sure. Also, I'm not sure how many NA 4 cylinders out there can put out 240-270 whp all motor and still throw down 35+ MPG on the highway.

And whoever said the Fit has incredible interior room for its size, YES. It's insane.

you're one of those guys from clubrsx that thinks an rsx-s with i/h/e + hondata can take anything short of a ferrari from a highway roll, huh?

I'd skip the C63 AMG. While it's a nice car, I think it's a bit overpriced (plus the reliability is awful)...

i wouldn't go so far as saying the reliability is awful...

there are tons of deals on w204 C63s as well. for anyone interested in one, check with dealers on what kind of incentives they have. some dealers (even in CA) are willing to throw out sales tax as well, which can be huge.

people do need to realize one thing about the w204 C63 though: this car's suspension is rough. i'm talking worse than any 996/7 GT3 rough. this car can quickly become a nightmare as a daily driver depending on the length of trip and quality of road.

my suggestion for anyone seriously considering a w204 C63: wait till the '12 model comes out, the suspension is essentially completely overhauled due to the aforementioned.

 

[reilo]

Actually, a Civic (Si) is just a weaksauce RSX-S, and rides on a different platform. Some significant differences between them.

The interior is very nice for its price, that's for sure. Also, I'm not sure how many NA 4 cylinders out there can put out 240-270 whp all motor and still throw down 35+ MPG on the highway.

And whoever said the Fit has incredible interior room for its size, YES. It's insane.

Where the hell do you pull these numbers from...

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Where the hell do you pull these numbers from...

I'm going to assume you're not familiar with K20's. They hit 230-240 whp just with basic bolt-ons and a tune. Start doing mild engine work and you've got an easy 260 whp. Swap a K24 bottom end on and you've got 280-300 whp.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

you're one of those guys from clubrsx that thinks an rsx-s with i/h/e + hondata can take anything short of a ferrari from a highway roll, huh?



i wouldn't go so far as saying the reliability is awful...

there are tons of deals on w204 C63s as well. for anyone interested in one, check with dealers on what kind of incentives they have. some dealers (even in CA) are willing to throw out sales tax as well, which can be huge.

people do need to realize one thing about the w204 C63 though: this car's suspension is rough. i'm talking worse than any 996/7 GT3 rough. this car can quickly become a nightmare as a daily driver depending on the length of trip and quality of road.

my suggestion for anyone seriously considering a w204 C63: wait till the '12 model comes out, the suspension is essentially completely overhauled due to the aforementioned.

Actually, no. I despise ClubRSX and find that modded RSX's without boost or good NA work done on their engines are slow. A stock S2000 will beat an i/h/e + tuned RSX-S from a roll. I just find the K20 engine to be impressive. But your smug condescension was funny nonetheless.

Anecdotal, but a friend of mine has an '09 C63 AMG. Not exactly stellar in the reliability department. Love AMG's engines, hate the fact that it's in a Mercedes. Her E46 M3 was more reliable than the C63, and E46's aren't Toyota/Honda-esque in their reliability either...

Then again, I wonder how reliable a V10-equipped M5 is.

 

[reilo]

I'm going to assume you're not familiar with K20's. They hit 230-240 whp just with basic bolt-ons and a tune. Start doing mild engine work and you've got an easy 260 whp. Swap a K24 bottom end on and you've got 280-300 whp.

Ah, yes. If I were to drop $4-5K into my engine, I'd be doing 400whp -- and that's before touching the block.

But let's not throw out numbers that casually.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Ah, yes. If I were to drop $4-5K into my engine, I'd be doing 400whp -- and that's before touching the block.

But let's not throw out numbers that casually.

And your engine is a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder, right?

Point was, the engine is impressive, especially considering how small it is. It's like a smaller LSx with higher revs.

I forget what kind of car you drive again... save me the time of searching, por favor?

 

[reilo]

And your engine is a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder, right?

Point was, the engine is impressive, especially considering how small it is. It's like a smaller LSx with higher revs.

I forget what kind of car you drive again... save me the time of searching, por favor?

2.3L DISI

I drive a 2007 Mazdaspeed6.

 

[Ovid]

So this guy wants to sell me a 2002 Celica for 3,500.

I haven't heard the engine yet but he's now putting in a used transmission that has 65k miles on it.

The rotors look rusty (brake pads looked good though) so I asked him to change those and he did. I'm just worried about the Cat Converter since they are known to have issues there.

Think I should jump on it if the engine sounds nice (and timing belt sounds good)? The body has no faults.

I use to have an '03 Celica. It was all show and no go. That was my baby back then though

 

[BoobPhysics101]

2.3L DISI

I drive a 2007 Mazdaspeed6.

Oh yeah, I forgot. We argued about the interior of a Mustang GT and you brought up your MS6.

MS6 is one of my favorite underrated sports sedans. Damn shame they didn't take the AWD system and put it in the MS3. Also stupid of Mazda to kill the MS6 considering how highly praised it is. How would you compare your MS6 to a WRX? Have you done a comparison? Also, how's the shifter on the MS6?

 

[reilo]

Oh yeah, I forgot. We argued about the interior of a Mustang GT and you brought up your MS6.

MS6 is one of my favorite underrated sports sedans. Damn shame they didn't take the AWD system and put it in the MS3. Also stupid of Mazda to kill the MS6 considering how highly praised it is. How would you compare your MS6 to a WRX? Have you done a comparison? Also, how's the shifter on the MS6?

Last time I drove in a WRX was years ago, so I can't really compare. I dislike the looks of WRXs so much that I didn't bother test driving them when I bought my car two years ago. I'm that big of a stickler on style and substance.

The shifter is fine, but the clutch is hard and heavy and has an extremely high release point. I recommend any MS3/6 owner (same transmission) to change out the fluids asap with something better like Red Line MT90. It makes such a huge difference, because otherwise it's a tough go to get used to the transmission. The upside of that is, though, that it's tough as nails and takes a lot of abuse and carries a lot of power.

I've also posted that Mazda should drop AWD into their next Speed3, but they really need to keep the weight down first (sub-3300 and AWD would be ideal). It's a heavy platform and of course it would add to the pricetag of the MS3.

 

[ecnal]

I'm going to assume you're not familiar with K20's. They hit 230-240 whp just with basic bolt-ons and a tune. Start doing mild engine work and you've got an easy 260 whp. Swap a K24 bottom end on and you've got 280-300 whp.

uh...

you're delirious if you believe anything you wrote. i just pulled the first 4 quick dyno results, and they're all comparable:

As requested, RBC & Karcepts Adapter/Hondata Intake Manifold Gasket/AEM Cold Air Intake/Stock Cams&Valves/Kidd Racing AKA Club RSX Special Race Header/Greddy SE Catback Exhaust

(See Attached)

211 WHP @7588 RPMs
165 lb ft torque 5200-6100 RPMs

Power falls off after 7600 RPMs due to stock CAMs. Much more can be had with a decent set of CAMs which incidently is my next upgrade.

K20a2 block
skunk2: stg 3 cams, dual springs, retainers
K&N CAI
DCRH
HKS hi-Power
K-Pro tuned by MASE

215hp 160tq as of yesterday

We were back on the dyno again. To finish tuning, We got cut short last time(customers come 1st)

KMOD Built K24 Longblock w/ stock IM/TB, PS, AC, DCRH & 2.5" Exhaust

Final Power figures 250whp/ 192wtq

K24 Block, 88mm CP pistons( 11.5:1), eagle rods, supertech block guard, skunk2 pro valve springs, brian crower stg2 cams, port matched type-s head, HondataIMG, Ported RBC, 650 rc injectors, bcrh, skunk2 70mm catback, magnaflo hi-flo catyletic, custom CAI/SRI, Underdrive alt pullley, Inovtive 75a motor mounts.

so no, just no.

 

[reilo]

Heh, Dynojet. Drop 20% off of that figure.