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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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I thought you were implying that it can jump to The Wisdom dictionary for an English definition.



So, on this page shown on iTunes, you could tap and highlight, for example, "大正期" to jump to its definition? What about something like "結った"? Would it be able to correctly identify it as 結う(ゆう) and let you jump to that word's definition?

Sorry for the question barrage, but I don't want to spend $20+ to find out it doesn't have the functionality I want.
It'll jump for 大正 (but not 大正期), and it doesn't parse verb conjugations for jumps (neither does my 電子辞書, maybe yours does? Which one do you use?). It does, however, let you quickly copy the words on highlight if you swipe and hold for a second, rather than just swipe and release, so you can quickly copy the kanji or words into the search field to change the conjugation and such. Which, again, is a bit more convenient than mucking around with the 電子辞書, at least for me.

Rather frustratingly, it seems that most Japanese-made dictionary things don't bother with adding support for verb conjugations. I usually use Midori or jisho.org for those things if I'm unsure. Being able to copy-paste from the 大辞林 makes that pretty easy, though it does take a bit longer to go back and forth between the apps like that.

And yeah, I don't mind the questions. If you want to know anything else about it don't hesitate to ask.
 

Nocebo

Member
Seems really cool and well-made, especially considering that it's free, but it doesn't look like it has a J -> J dictionary, which I think is crucial once you get to an intermediate level or start reading books.
Yeah, I have a casio ex-word XD-B6500. Since I've been trying to move on to looking up Japanese definitions for words recently I'm using it more and more.
 

urfe

Member
Seems really cool and well-made, especially considering that it's free, but it doesn't look like it has a J -> J dictionary, which I think is crucial once you get to an intermediate level or start reading books.

Great point. I sadly still rely on a J-E dictionary and that's prob a huge problem in my studies.
 
Great point. I sadly still rely on a J-E dictionary and that's prob a huge problem in my studies.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it in and of itself. I still use a J-E dictionary a lot of the time for quick lookups or to check something I've inferred from context. But when it's time to make flashcard entries in Anki or I want to learn more about alternate usages of a word, I check the J-J dictionary, to make sure I'm accounting for any particular nuance.

You can start with a 小学国語辞典 if you're wary of all the kanji (and lack of furigana) in regular dictionaries. Unfortunately, there aren't very many digital ones. If you're interested in a paper one, I like チャレンジ小学国語辞典.

If you happen to have an iPad, there is a really slick app for the 例解学習国語辞典, but it's tragically iPad only. There's another one which is universal, but while the content is the same the app is a goddamn mess of horrendous design and I can't really recommend it.
 

Porcile

Member
Can someone explain to me the advantages of using J-J dictionaries, and the disadvantage of using J-E? I read about it quite a lot when I go around looking for study tips, and it is often suggested for intermediate learners moving to the advanced stage.
 
Can someone explain to me the advantages of using J-J dictionaries, and the disadvantage of using J-E? I read about it quite a lot when I go around looking for study tips, and it is often suggested for intermediate learners moving to the advanced stage.

There are a few reasons.

First, J-E dictionaries tend to only give single-word definitions, or a handful of similar words. The problem is that this only really works well for very simple concepts; concrete nouns (car, cat) and simple verbs (run, sit). When it comes to more complex ideas, there are often a bunch of words that can be used with varying nuances. If I look up 軽はずみ、無謀、命知らず、and 無闇 in a J-E dictionary they all just say various combinations and conjugations of the words "rash, reckless, heedless, thoughtless." If I look them up in a J-J dictionary, the definitions actually define the words. 軽はずみ means acting according to a flight of fancy without thinking about what one is doing. 無謀 means doing something without considering the consequences. 命知らず means acting without regard for the danger surrounding something, and has connotations of naivety and foolishness. 無闇 means doing something for no discernable reason, with no thought to the action's appropriateness in that situation. They're all similar, but they have distinct differences and understanding those helps you appreciate them more, as well as helping to keep them straight in your head.

Another reason, is that J-J dictionaries are guaranteed to have accurate and applicable usage examples. Most of the example sentences in J-E dictionaries were pulled from the Tanaka Corpus, which has well-documented issues with its translations and the sentences tend to be wordy and often quite unnatural.

Finally, consistently using a J-J dictionary will expand your vocabulary. You'll come across new and useful words as synonyms or parts of definitions, and form natural links between related words and concepts. You'll also get a better idea of how Japanese people think about the Japanese language and better learn how to handle definitions given to you, or help you define things when you can't think of the right word and are trying to ask what it is.

That said, there's a definite learning curve, and when you first start you'll come a cross a ton of unfamiliar words all the damn time, which is frustrating. Starting with elementary school dictionaries can help with that.

This also doesn't become immensely useful until your vocabulary is starting to branch out beyond "survival Japanese," which is most of what you learn until intermediate studies (past N4, working towards N3). Until that point there's not nearly as much benefit because you're dealing almost exclusively with simple words that don't require a more nuanced understanding. Even then, though, you can have some things that seem a little bit odd, such as きれい meaning both "beautiful" and "clean", or the distinction between somewhat similar words such as 問題 and 質問, but those tend to be explained by the textbook on a case-to-case basis.
 

Jintor

Member
i mean it's the same reason it's generally good to transition from using a japanese textbook teaching with english to a japanese textbook teaching in japanese.

1) good japanese practice
2) makes you think more in japanese
3) removes the translation step

of course, i'm not yet good enough to take my own advice. zannen.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Can someone explain to me the advantages of using J-J dictionaries, and the disadvantage of using J-E? I read about it quite a lot when I go around looking for study tips, and it is often suggested for intermediate learners moving to the advanced stage.

It really just boils down to actually understanding the language natively vs. translating it into a language that you do understand.
 

Nocebo

Member
Yeah, I think if you want to be really good at a language you have to understand words conceptually in their own language. As a mental image, not as a word in a different language. If I want to know the meaning of an English word I don't look it up in my native language either.
 

urfe

Member
It really just boils down to actually understanding the language natively vs. translating it into a language that you do understand.

I honestly feel very dumb for not realizing this sooner and very very excited to get started properly looking up words.

I'll be on the lookout for a good app.
 

Porcile

Member
Thanks, it makes a lot of sense. I know when I have to do my weekly 宿題, I often try to use adjectives, adverbs and verbs which I haven't come across before and more often than not get the nuance completely wrong.
 

Resilient

Member
mmmmmm soooo fuck MGS for taking up so much of my time the last 2 weeks, threw me out of my rhythm.

good info above from the dudes re: japanese to japanese dictionary; I'm gonna buy one of these for my phone.
 
does anybody know if there's a difference between the white box version and the black box version of that "game?"

I have the black one, just curious if the white one is newer or anything
 

Nocebo

Member
I'd love to know what this game is called!
Probably something like: Kanji Sonomama Rakubiki Jiten
I found that one to be really clunky, bad at recognizing the kanji you write into it. Poor resolution and just not very convenient in use compared to a dedicated electronic dictionary or a dictionary on a smart phone.
 

Resilient

Member
I'd love to know what this game is called!

See below:

(read the op)

See excerpt (credit: the Internet and OP)

Kanji Sono Mama Rakubiki Jiten
511D416F77L._AA280_.jpg

So good, I bought another DS.
Amazon
Play-Asia
 

blurr

Member
Akebi does pretty much what that DS game is doing and more. It's an android app.

Although I noticed that Kanji Sono Mama tends to be more accurate when recognizing Kanji. Most cases, you won't have an issue with Akebi.
 

Kurita

Member
I've been seeing instances of のは lately and not sure how to interpret it.

Do you have examples?
の can be used when you omit a noun you've already used, の will just refer to that. It can also be used like こと to nominalize a verb.
 

Resilient

Member
we should put our current short comings out here and see if people have neat solutions for them. i'll start:

writing japanese is relatively easy when i'm copying/writing from my head, but when i'm copying down what someone is speaking to me, my writing turns into a jumbled mess and i can't get the Kanji down fast enough

when i would hear people talk, my brain would first translate each part into english and then generate the sentence. now when i hear people talk, i don't put it into english and just sort of think i know what the person said. usually it's right but i feel like this is lazy. i can't change it though; it's autonomous at this point.

i try to avoid using mannerisms/expressions when i speak because i don't want to sound like an anime character. people tell me this makes me sound stiff and too formal..
 

RangerBAD

Member
Do you have examples?
の can be used when you omit a noun you've already used, の will just refer to that. It can also be used like こと to nominalize a verb.

I can't find the sentence, but it wasn't in place of a noun. Maybe it was the other thing. I thought のは might have been a particle.
 

Resilient

Member
I can't find the sentence, but it wasn't in place of a noun. Maybe it was the other thing. I thought のは might have been a particle.

Like the duder said it's probably nominalisation.

行くのは going
食べるのは eating
死ぬのは dying

Dictionary form + のは is nominalisation
 

RangerBAD

Member
Like the duder said it's probably nominalisation.

行くのは going
食べるのは eating
死ぬのは dying

Dictionary form + のは is nominalisation

The book never even taught me that and yet it's used in the textbook.
 

Resilient

Member
Welcome to Mario Kart!

You should buy All About Particles by Naoko Chino. Great book cause it fills the shortcomings of most textbooks which is that they gloss over particles lol.
 

blurr

Member
we should put our current short comings out here and see if people have neat solutions for them. i'll start:

writing japanese is relatively easy when i'm copying/writing from my head, but when i'm copying down what someone is speaking to me, my writing turns into a jumbled mess and i can't get the Kanji down fast enough

when i would hear people talk, my brain would first translate each part into english and then generate the sentence. now when i hear people talk, i don't put it into english and just sort of think i know what the person said. usually it's right but i feel like this is lazy. i can't change it though; it's autonomous at this point.

i try to avoid using mannerisms/expressions when i speak because i don't want to sound like an anime character. people tell me this makes me sound stiff and too formal..

As far as writing is concerned, I just don't think it's necessary unless you're really going to write(not type) something in Japanese everyday or at some regular intervals. These days most communications is done through typing. There was a discussion in r/LearnJapanese on this

Secondly, If you're not working as a translator then I think it's fine if you are able to understand what people are saying without having to translate. I think of this ability as a step up in language learning.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'mannerisms/expressions' here though.
 

Nocebo

Member
For me personally it helps a lot with memorizing kanji and words when I write stuff down on paper. So while it probably isn't necessary it does help studying a lot. Not only because writing down things is scientifically proven to help with memorization, but I can write down thoughts and notes anywhere I have a pen and paper. For example: at work during a meeting. Which is good practice for using a language.
 

blurr

Member
Yes, writing can definitely help you memorize better. I try to write a Kanji a couple of times whenever I learn a new one but never after that.
 

Nocebo

Member
Yes, writing can definitely help you memorize better. I try to write a Kanji a couple of times whenever I learn a new one but never after that.
Wow, you must be able to memorize really quickly then. I'm jealous.

It took me quite a while, like 3 months or so, to be able to memorize the most common readings of and be able to recognize most of the 2000+ 常用漢字. I spent lots of time writing them down over and over and over again. I still don't know some of the meanings, though. Have to study harder.

That is how 鬱 and 繭 became some of my favorite kanji. Anyone else have favorite kanji?
 

blurr

Member
Wow, you must be able to memorize really quickly then. I'm jealous.

It took me quite a while, like 3 months or so, to be able to memorize the most common readings of and be able to recognize most of the 2000+ 常用漢字. I spent lots of time writing them down over and over and over again. I still don't know some of the meanings, though. Have to study harder.

It's not that I have good memory, whenever I learn a new one even if I practice 100 times I'm liable to forget at some point, the important thing is to practice consistently, this can guarantee that I won't forget any time. Practice isn't necessarily through writing(as mentioned earlier, it's not necessary unless you are obligated to write regularly), it can be done through reading something.

Best thing about JLPT kanji is that they were organized such that you learn the most used kanji before the least used. Makes memorizing things easier and the entire process of learning kanji less intimidating.

You seem to know a lot more Kanji than me, I'm still at 500+
 

Jintor

Member

yeah

good and bad. Knowing the meanings is helpful for knowing what stuff actually means. I can usually puzzle my way through a sign or a notice eventually. But ask me to read it aloud to anyone and I might as well fall over and die right there
 

Nocebo

Member
It's not that I have good memory, whenever I learn a new one even if I practice 100 times I'm liable to forget at some point, the important thing is to practice consistently, this can guarantee that I won't forget any time. Practice isn't necessarily through writing(as mentioned earlier, it's not necessary unless you are obligated to write regularly), it can be done through reading something.
Yeah you're right of course.
Best thing about JLPT kanji is that they were organized such that you learn the most used kanji before the least used. Makes memorizing things easier and the entire process of learning kanji less intimidating.
Nice. I used a different order that really worked for me.

Haha, very nice.

My favorite is definitely 魚
With 囁 it's like you need 3 ears close to that mouth to hear right? haha.
Maybe you'll like 鯨 then too. I'm sure 京 is in the first 500 JLPT kanji. Can make for an interesting mental image.
 

Resilient

Member
yeah

good and bad. Knowing the meanings is helpful for knowing what stuff actually means. I can usually puzzle my way through a sign or a notice eventually. But ask me to read it aloud to anyone and I might as well fall over and die right there

Bah. Hated it. The idea of that was good when I didn't know anything. When I started trying to read shit though...pissed me off to no end.
 

blurr

Member
Yeah you're right of course.

Nice. I used a different order that really worked for me.


With 囁 it's like you need 3 ears close to that mouth to hear right? haha.
Maybe you'll like 鯨 then too. I'm sure 京 is in the first 500 JLPT kanji. Can make for an interesting mental image.

Yea, I've come across 京 yet to check the other one.

I'm trying to read more to practice so resorting to twitter and following Japanese gaming/anime twitter, try to translate tweets on news and other details.

Also reading a couple of manga (Yotsubato and much recently Dagashikashi). They have furigana.
 

Jintor

Member
Bah. Hated it. The idea of that was good when I didn't know anything. When I started trying to read shit though...pissed me off to no end.

the thing is, it makes remembering the kanji of any vocab pretty easy, at least relative to how i was learning before.

and i should know. I spent like at least 8 years doing chinese and retained only the very basic fundamentals of that writing system plus my name characters. Heisig's method works better for me as a component part of the overall learning structure.
 

Porcile

Member
My biggest weakness is that I am terrible. Working on it though.

Actually, I would say the thing I struggle with is somewhat related to my personality. In my one-to-one lessons, I find it hard to step out of my very British shoes and pretend to be Japanese for that one hour a week. I don't mean pretend to be Japanese in an AngelSoldier way. I mean that I have a mental block/anxiety about using Japanese I know, but which isn't part of the lesson plan.
 

Resilient

Member
the thing is, it makes remembering the kanji of any vocab pretty easy, at least relative to how i was learning before.

and i should know. I spent like at least 8 years doing chinese and retained only the very basic fundamentals of that writing system plus my name characters. Heisig's method works better for me as a component part of the overall learning structure.

i used it for the first 500+ but got over it because i was trying to learn words and read at the same time, and kept running into Kanji that i kind of remembered, but were part of larger words, so i had no fucking idea what i was reading. it was good for figuring out a random sign or two in japan like you said. but, as you said also. the moment when i said "nope" was when my friend asked me to read it so he knew and i was like "lol not happening breh". that's when i knew, it was time to step out of my babby weeabobo shoes and learn it the hard (easy) way.
 

upandaway

Member
Yeah RTK is more like an investment for having an easier time learning vocab in the future. If you're looking to see immediate gains it won't do much. It does help a lot with vocab/readings after you get it down though.
 

Resilient

Member
Does RTK get you writing the kanji?

yea it encourages you to write them as you learn, he has a method for making everything stick. i dunno, it's not for everyone. i figured it was gonna be easier for me to learn everything together rather than bits and pieces, then come back later and glue them together.
 
i figured it was gonna be easier for me to learn everything together rather than bits and pieces, then come back later and glue them together.

I'm glad RTK works for people I guess, really didn't click with me. wanikani works for me, and you learn pronunciations and vocab for the kanji you learn, plus you still get RTK style "stories" for radicals and kanji

plus if you wanted it lets you punch in your own mnemonics if you don't like theirs
 

muteki

Member
Does RTK get you writing the kanji?

Doing RTK without writing would be a waste of time IMO, at least the first pass through. Go from keyword -> writing kanji from memory. The first book is writing, the second book is reading, the third book is more of the first.

MGSV is killing my study time :(. I have been keeping up with my reviews but haven't been reading much else. Need to get back to it soon.
 

Porcile

Member
yea it encourages you to write them as you learn, he has a method for making everything stick. i dunno, it's not for everyone. i figured it was gonna be easier for me to learn everything together rather than bits and pieces, then come back later and glue them together.

Seems like it would be good for that in any case then. Wanikani, while good for meanings and readings doesn't encourage doing anything handwritten. I personally find it very hard to remember anything long term if I'm not using and writing things on a regular basis. A year from now, will I still be able to remember the meanings and readings of an obscure kanji character I learned at level 9 on Wanikani? Considering it only takes about 6 months to burn an item on WK and you never see it again. Probably not. Even now, there's been a bunch of times where I've learned a kanji on WK in the short term, but because it's only been used in one vocabulary word, I forget it quickly. Like 了 for example. I think you learn that at level 1 or 2, and after that it's not used again for another three months, or longer, depending how quick you are at getting through levels.

It would be nice if there was a something out there that was good balance between the two I think. Like an app which functioned solely as a written kanji SRS tool. Maybe one already exists?
 
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