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The Black Culture Thread |OT X| Thread's Up, Don't Lurk

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D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
bish pls. amy looks sturdy as hell.
Discotheque said:
was last year's dunk contest any good? i don't really remember. i think there were like 30 attempts given though for them.
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dunk contest has been shit for 6 years

3pt shootout this year is going to be god dimension shit
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
DY_nasty said:
Here's my thing over posting in that kind of topic.... you can get banned for ignorance in an instant

I'm still grateful for Gaborn and shidoshi being extremely patient with explaining trans/cis stuff to me when I was starting the discussion with absolutely no knowledge. However, most of that was PMs and off-site. I wouldn't even talk about it here. Be racist for years, project your atheism as superiority, be an internet detective - but don't even risk coming off wrong (you're still wrong for not knowing more than you do, obv) in a thread centered around trans issues.

like - just look at the back end of that thread right now. it doesn't even make fucking sense
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some groups need more protection?
 
O

Opiate

Member
DY_nasty said:
The thing about ignorance is that you don't know you're ignorant. Its why I kinda get irritated on race topics here when I see guys absolutely itching for the chance to jump down someone's throat for saying the wrong thing.

Like, what the fuck does that actually do? Unless they're being straight up hateful, which you won't know unless its painted clear as day in the first post if you haven't even allowed them to go on with their train of thought, then talk. Explain. Teach. What does kicking an ignorant person out of the room do other than make them be ignorant somewhere else? Congrats. You moved sand from one side of the beach to the other.
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It makes you feel good about being right. For a lot of people, the goal of an argument is to be right, to win, and not necessarily to teach or (even less likely) to learn.

Further, I think this is a fundamental part of being human; we enjoy believing there are "good people" and "bad people," that these lines are clean and easily drawn, and of course that we are one of the good ones. I think many religious people (not all!) are drawn to religions for this reason, for example. I think political discussions are often framed this way, with Democrats (or Republicans) representing the tide of evil that must be turned back and defeated.

When talking to a racist, if your goal is just to be right and be righteous, then beating them over the head with their ignorance accomplishes that goal quite nicely. That's the end goal for many people in all sorts of arguments, not just discussions of racism or trangenderism.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
i haven't looked at the nba thread in months

lol
The Faceless Master said:
some groups need more protection?
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I wouldn't even call it protection - its hard to even foster a discussion. Then again, its hard a discussion to have considering most peoples' starting point on the topic.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Trey said:
Religion, political ideologies, things of that nature are handled much less stringently than things like race and gender identity. Fat shaming is just now becoming frowned upon in this community. The reasoning is that a person controls their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) - same with political affiliation - which opens those topics up to criticism. So you're not going to recruit the same expediency in moderating with those threads unless some one is making a particularly special ass of themselves.

At least that's how mods have explained the double standard in the past. And you don't have to tell me how religious threads go. That "Atheism > Religion, facts only" thread a few days ago was a chore to get through.
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see, what i did was i read the OP and then closed the tab.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Opiate said:
It makes you feel good about being right. For a lot of people, the goal of an argument is to be right, to win, and not necessarily to learn or to teach.

I think this is a fundamental part of being human; we enjoy believing there are "good people" and "bad people," that these lines are clean and easily drawn, and of course that we are one of the good ones. I think many religious people (not all!) are drawn to religions for this reason, for example. I think political discussions are often framed this way, with Democrats (or Republicans) representing the tide of evil that must be defeated.

When talking to a racist, if your goal is just to be right and be righteous, then beating them over the head with their ignorance accomplishes that goal quite nicely.
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I disagree with none of this.

But most of all I don't think people are really willing to acknowledge the ground that must given when trying to educate someone. Its always a risk you take too. They can just as easily take advantage of it and hit some of your own personal soft spots regarding the issue (because its something many would feel strongly about obviously) but it has to be done IF your goal is to actually show a new perspective, educate, etc.

Now, trying to do that with people that are repeatedly skating on the outskirts of what is respectable, honest discussion is something else entirely.
 
K

Kid Kamikaze10

Member
Opiate said:
It makes you feel good about being right. For a lot of people, the goal of an argument is to be right, to win, and not necessarily to teach or (even less likely) to learn.

Further, I think this is a fundamental part of being human; we enjoy believing there are "good people" and "bad people," that these lines are clean and easily drawn, and of course that we are one of the good ones. I think many religious people (not all!) are drawn to religions for this reason, for example. I think political discussions are often framed this way, with Democrats (or Republicans) representing the tide of evil that must be turned back and defeated.

When talking to a racist, if your goal is just to be right and be righteous, then beating them over the head with their ignorance accomplishes that goal quite nicely. That's the end goal for many people in all sorts of arguments, not just discussions of racism or trangenderism.
Click to expand...

Honestly, when it comes to certain topics, you can explain and try to teach it all you want, but another excuse is coming right up. Toward racism, in many cases it's as simple as how Toni Morrison said it.

"The function, the very serious function, of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language, so you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn't shaped properly, so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of that is necessary. There will always be one more thing."
 
H

harSon

Banned
cdyhybrid said:
NBA is dead until the Sonics are resurrected.
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I loved them as a kid. Pittsburgh didn't have a team, and Kemp/Payton were the shit in the mid 90's when I was growing up.

NBA is probably the only sport I watch without a true vested interest at this point. Pittsburgh's never getting a team, and there's no way in hell I'm cheering for a Bay Area of Philly team.
 
R

RBK

Banned
dskillzhtown said:
Preferences are now a problem? No matter how they are created, I don't see a preference being a problem.
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Also agree with this as well.

I won't deny saying you can find beautiful women across the board from different ethnicities, but just in my lifetime, I've been more attracted to black/hispanic women more so than white/asian women.

At least the ones I've come across.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Kid Kamikaze10 said:
Honestly, when it comes to certain topics, you can explain and try to teach it all you want, but another excuse is coming right up. Toward racism, in many cases it's as simple as how Toni Morrison said it.

"The function, the very serious function, of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language, so you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn't shaped properly, so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of that is necessary. There will always be one more thing."
Click to expand...

Really what you're noticing here is the distinction between honest and disingenuous ignorance.

I agree with you (and Morrison) that this sort of disingenuous ignorance is a thing that happens, but sometimes people really are ignorant, and you don't know which is which until you honestly, kindly engage them. For instance, the person DY_nasty is referring to never had a chance to respond to the scientific articles I linked referring to transgenderism. It's possible he might have said "Oh, I guess I didn't know this, can you give me more info?" But it's also possible he would have deflected and come up with a whole new excuse. You just don't know which it will be until you engage them. If you engage everyone with hostility from the start, you'll push away not just the flagrant racists (who I agree deserve to be ignored), but also the ignorant racists who simply don't know better, perhaps because they grew up in a culturally homogenous part of the world.
 
M

Malyse

Member
harSon said:
I loved them as a kid. Pittsburgh didn't have a team, and Kemp/Payton were the shit in the mid 90's when I was growing up.

NBA is probably the only sport I watch without a true vested interest at this point. Pittsburgh's never getting a team, and there's no way in hell I'm cheering for a Bay Area of Philly team.
Click to expand...

Still waiting on VA to get a team.
 
O

Opiate

Member
DY_nasty said:
I disagree with none of this.

But most of all I don't think people are really willing to acknowledge the ground that must given when trying to educate someone. Its always a risk you take too. They can just as easily take advantage of it and hit some of your own personal soft spots regarding the issue (because its something many would feel strongly about obviously) but it has to be done IF your goal is to actually show a new perspective, educate, etc.

Now, trying to do that with people that are repeatedly skating on the outskirts of what is respectable, honest discussion is something else entirely.
Click to expand...

Right, I definitely agree there is always danger and you have to be willing to end up being wrong yourself.

And yes, if (for example) I engage someone honestly regarding transgender issues, I provide data and evidence to help them, and they seem to deflect or ignore that evidence or simply shift to a whole different tactic so that they can continue disliking transgender people, that's no longer an innocently ignorant person, it's a willfully ignorant one; those people deserve to be banned, and I have banned them in the past.
 
T

Trey

Member
F

FeenixRising

Banned
Listening to Spotify radio based on my Jhene/Tinashe/RoJo etc.. playlist, I came across this little gem, "Teen Spirit" by Dawn Richards

Shame the LP is only various artists singing or rapping over that beat, but her's is the best.
 
D

dskillzhtown

keep your strippers out of my American football
RBK said:
Also agree with this as well.

I won't deny saying you can find beautiful women across the board from different ethnicities, but just in my lifetime, I've been more attracted to black/hispanic women more so than white/asian women.

At least the ones I've come across.
Click to expand...

I think that the whys of attraction is interesting to talk about, but the phrasing of it as a "problem" kind of irked me. I probably took it the wrong way though.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
 
O

Opiate

Member
Parallax said:
Tell me youre joking
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Kennedy is a libertarian. She's for same sex marriage, she's pro-choice, she opposes the drug war, she's against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and probably agrees with you on virtually all social issues. She just also believes in deregulated markets. It doesn't mean I agree with her on that issue either, but she's not a straightforward, agree-with-everything-the-Republican-party-says conservative.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before:

Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me put this simply: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

No, there's a truth to that. It was one of my biggest hurdles when I was volunteering too. A lot of young black people in America are in a very different situation than poor people in other parts of the world. They don't have access to the same venues of education as other Americans but at the same time they're exposed to all of the stereotypical 'finish lines'. Kids are highly influenced by the media. They want to identify with people that look like them. But with Black kids, they're bound to see hundreds of Black entertainers and athletes while maybe seeing a dozen black doctors or more visible politicians. Without the same cultural foundation of (for example) an Asian American or Indian American family, they're kinda forced into a situation where they have blinders on - thinking that the only way to improve their living conditions are to emulate what they've seen from the media.

Quick version, I'm sure someone could do this topic better justice. Cooking right now :/
 
K

Kid Kamikaze10

Member
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before:

Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me put this simply: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

No, you shouldn't try to steer them away. Just offer alternatives.

There is racism in sports and the music industry. Most of the execs and owners are rich white men, and Donald Sterling isn't an anomaly. (just check out how the Cavs owner acted when Lebron left)

Those industries are very, "entertain me, black people". Black bodies doing the work, putting themselves out there, while other guys make more money off their work and fans treat them more like commodities and icons than people.

And yes, the disproportionate amount has led to many in not just poorer communities, but even middle class communities that try to push their kids into sports. Less so music in middle class communities. A lot of forced window shopping via different media and real life can do that.

But in the end, when they get old enough, it's up to the individual.

As a group? Provide safer, more secure alternatives, then let them decide. Try to be convincing though.
 
T

Trey

Member
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

The black people with money or on TV are probably music artists or athletes. There are black lawyers and doctors and engineers, but they aren't as visible, and there aren't enough involved in the urban communities where blacks are most concentrated and most poor.

It's why representation is so important. White folks can be anything because they are everything. And if a black man has money, he probably is being paid by whites. That's the huge disconnect between minority wealth and white wealth. That's power.
 
D

dskillzhtown

keep your strippers out of my American football
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

My family may be unique or fortunate, but I can honestly say that only one person out of the younger generation fit into that scenario. One went to college on a athletic scholarship, actually played in the NFL for a season. The other tried to pursue a DJ/producer career that was a bust. The rest went to school (high school or college), got jobs and had no real fantasies of winning the sports/music lottery. Hell, I DJ'd on the radio for about 5 years but gave it up for a more reliable income.

My uncles and aunts were all nurses, engineers, factory workers, construction workers, or truck drivers. So maybe they served as real-life role models and not some athlete or musician. I can only speak from my extended family's experience. I won't begin to generalize for all black folks. But in my experience, while the sports/musician worship is there, but it is understood that you need a more realistic path in life.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Trey said:
The black people with money or on TV are probably music artists or athletes. There are black lawyers and doctors and engineers, but they aren't as visible, and there aren't enough involved in the urban communities where blacks are most concentrated and most poor.

It's why representation is so important. White folks can be anything because they are everything. And if a black man has money, he probably is being paid by whites. That's the huge disconnect between minority wealth and white wealth. That's power.
Click to expand...
The cultural foundation is huge too. Even without representation (or bad representation), you'll see other communities still manage to push through by highlighting education, family, and other stuff. But that gets a bit more complicated. Can't really go down that road without explicitly highlighting the differences and generational hurdles.
 
C

CrazyDogg77

Member
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

There's definitely something there. It's strange basically every culture except Black and Hispanics are exposed to doctors, lawyers, politicians while we get stereotypical athletes and entertainers. I don't know if downplaying is the thing to do, but definitely letting kids know there's more avenues. That's a big reason representation is such a huge deal. It's pretty hard to believe something you've never seen play out before
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...
they definitely skew the goals at a very young age. in NY, way too many kids i encountered wanted to be a baller and now in the south, everyone thinks they can be in the NFL if they try really hard. how do you discourage someone from trying? pointing out alternatives or plan Bs just leads to the derision about not being good enough for plan A.
 
N

n00bsauce87

Member
Opiate said:
Since I'm in here, I'll ask this question which I've never discussed with black people before: Do you feel there's an argument to be made that rap/basketball/football are racist against black people? Specifically, that their hugely disproportionate representation in the black community encourages more kids to go in to those fields?

Let me give this simple example: my best friend is Indian. The most common view of Indians is that they are either 1) Doctors or 2) Convenience store clerks, and sure enough, my friend (and his Indian wife) are doctors. I don't think this is a coincidence: I think culture influences our choices and behaviors.

The difference is that being a doctor is a much, much better field to get in to than music or sports are from virtually any objective angle. For every one black musician who makes it huge, or one black athlete who makes 20M/year for a sports team, there are thousands who never make it and contribute to the black poverty problem.

Is this a totally unreasonable viewpoint? Should we be actively downplaying the importance of these fields so as to steer black youth away from them?
Click to expand...

Racist isn't the right word to use. Stereotypical driven? Yes. In the more economically challenged neighborhoods that are majority black, using talents are than academic ones are seen an easy way to get out of the current situation they are in. From the outside looking in, seeing an effort from black people as a whole to try and convince black youth to get away from these aspirations to more of a traditional route of higher education may sound plausible, but they would be assuming that they have the same opportunities in their neighborhoods as an upper middle class neighborhood, school, and household. Which more often than not is not true.

I could go into a tangent on how this is why we need affirmative action, but I'll assume that you know that it's only a good thing.

So if education is seen as not as great as it could be based on the surrounding conditions (further exacerbated if the parents aren't pushing it at home because other responsibilities are more important, like food and shelter and keeping their low paying job), they are going to find other ways of trying to make their living situation better or try and make a big break financially because living like shit isn't cool. A rap career, trying to get to school on an athletic scholarship, or selling drugs to work with more money are seen as good ways to help with the situation.

It's not that we should target the black kids directly saying pursing these avenues are bad (besides selling drugs because that's a crime), present them with other avenues along with those. Give them summer job and after school job opportunities. Give them something to do and money to have. Being a mentor helps a lot. There's probably other things that I can think off, but can right now. Listening to a podcast.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
The Faceless Master said:
they definitely skew the goals at a very young age. in NY, way too many kids i encountered wanted to be a baller and now in the south, everyone thinks they can be in the NFL if they try really hard. how do you discourage someone from trying? pointing out alternatives or plan Bs just leads to the derision about not being good enough for plan A.
Click to expand...

my high school football coach was given an interview by the local paper after 14 of us got D1 scholarships

dude literally told the journalist to his face "we don't make doctors or lawyers here, we make athletes"

people got butthurt about it, but he was absolutely right. given the area (southern durham), there just weren't options. hell, the nearest library was in a community where the property values were 4 times higher than everything surrounding it.
 
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