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The Black Culture Thread |OT14| Ruthless: The So Well Spoken Story

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Crocodile

Member
Are people really shitting on FMA Brotherhood in here? I didn't know we accepted such aggressively terrible opinions in our midst. Also LOL at taking some random screenshots of an anime and trying to throw an entire show under a bus. That's like not how animation works at all. Even in the best of shows you could probably find a wonky frame or two.

The price of digital. If it's cheap, it doesn't look good. You have to go all out to make digital animated characters look good.

Cel has higher highs but it's more expensive. Cheap cel looks better than cheap digital though. But expensive digital can look as good as expensive cel. Problem is, most studios see digital as a cheap alternative to cel, and aren't willing to shell money to produce quality work.

My experience in consuming and reading about animation has thought me that the biggest limiting factor in the quality of animation for a show is time (production schedule essentially) and talent, not money. Things like One Punch Man weren't animated by breaking open a bank vault - the people working on the show are just damn good and had enough time to do their work. Applies to a lot of other shows too.
 

Shy

Member
The best medium to me seems to be an in between like how Studio Ghibli produces work. They hand draw their work but paint it digitally. The perfect compromise. And now their next film is going to be 3d. *cries*
xHqsn3M.gif
 
I am still mad Dai-Guard isn't more popular.

One of my favorite Anime. I remember catching the 2nd ep during Toonami's Giant Robot week when they showed it, Eva & Martian Successor Nadesico. Saw the rest of it on Anime Network's VOD channel. I really need to rewatch it.

How to people feel about Texhnolyze?

I watched a few eps of it on Starz back when they used to show Anime, wasn't really feeling it.
 

Merc_

Member
The price of digital. If it's cheap, it doesn't look good. You have to go all out to make digital animated characters look good.

Ah, the story of Dragon Ball Super. Although it has been looking better in recent episodes we'll never forget episode 5 or a large part of the RoF retelling. You'd think such a successful and well known property would get first class treatment.
 

Bubba T

Member
I was rummaging through some old stuff at my mom's place last night and I saw an old itinerary for our trip to Nigeria. We were supposed to leave on September 12th, 2001.

I actually remember coming back to school that day and people asking me wasn't I supposed to be on a plane today. I gave them a blank stare.
 
FMA Brotherhood is on the same level of every other great Anime you are familiar with. Don't bad mouth it or you will look bad


Yes. I'll look bad.

Thing is, the characters themselves usually look fine, but every episode stuff like this shows up and kills it for me. The backgrounds always look bad. The show is consistently wonky. It's a lot harder to find wonky frames in the original show. Believe me, I've looked. They're there. But they're barely there.

I don't like shows where the backgrounds look like they got run through a Photoshop filter.

BTW....aren't archways like the ones on the left supposed to be straight and parallel?


I can go through every episode and find shit like this. That's not nitpicking, that's looking for a show to have consistent art. If it was just one or two episodes, it wouldn't have bothered me. It happens during serious scenes. It happens during some of the shows biggest moments:
the Winry pulls a gun on Scar scene looks so ugly
. The first show managed consistency and quality and most of the same people worked on it!

This stuff bothers me as someone who pays attention to the art and animation in a show, but you know what, there's one thing I can't argue: I still watched the show and enjoyed parts of it. I could never like it in its entirety, but I recognize that what I look for isn't what others are going to look for. I wanted that care and detail because I do love the series. In the original show when
Scar destroyed Edward's arm, the arm was detailed with parts flying everywhere, and you got a focus on Edward's facial expression. I wanted Brotherhood to give its scenes that kind of effort. It doesn't.
Arcs like Nina took up to two or three episodes originally. Important arcs from the manga like Xerxes were crunched into one. I was fine with them rushing the early stuff to get to the new, but they even rushed the new.

Anyway. If how I feel about the show makes me look bad, too bad. I guess I'll just have to look bad.
 

TheFlow

Banned
My "look bad" statement wasn't meant to be taken this serious lol. just exaggerating to get across how great the show is.

If you wanna argue the art/animation then sure but it doesn't stop FMA:brotherhood from being one of the greats.
 
Are people really shitting on FMA Brotherhood in here? I didn't know we accepted such aggressively terrible opinions in our midst. Also LOL at taking some random screenshots of an anime and trying to throw an entire show under a bus. That's like not how animation works at all. Even in the best of shows you could probably find a wonky frame or two.



My experience in consuming and reading about animation has thought me that the biggest limiting factor in the quality of animation for a show is time (production schedule essentially) and talent, not money. Things like One Punch Man weren't animated by breaking open a bank vault - the people working on the show are just damn good and had enough time to do their work. Applies to a lot of other shows too.

Time is an issue. But money is also an issue. That's partly why digital is a thing: it saves some time and some money, but it's just plain in general. Money buys good talent. Although I hate it, compare Kill La Kill to other anime digital TV series. Despite being digital, it LOOKS just like high end cel. They put in time, but they also have some of the best talent in the industry and have amassed a pretty small fortune. Time, talent, and money all factor into animation. But even back in the day, when Sailor Moon reused those transformation animations, it still had a massive amount of heart out into its shots. Sailor Moon was no GitS:SAC in terms of animation, but it still looked good. Besides being a popular brand, it made Toei money because they were frugal with it. And yet, it still looked amazing and had to worry about going ahead of the manga. Sailor Moon's new TV series has had all the time in the world to look good. So did FMA: Brotherhood. They're both based off finished manga stories. In the case of Ssilor Moon, the manga finished almost 20 year ago? So it's no excuse.

Essentially, digital saves time and money, making studios like Toei who don't give a fuck, half ass on it. Then you get stuff like the new Sailor Moon.

e37KJu0.png


Furthermore, Japan's animation industry has had a mass talent exodus. There's not nearly as much talented worked in it as there were say, twenty years ago. So for a lot of projects, all three are lacking.
 

Village

Member
what wrong with Winry.

mmmmm

I could whole papers on how whinry is this weird shit stain on something almost perfect. Like she's this character, who in the whole of the show, doesn't need to exist besides being a mechanic.She's a failure at being a sort of conventional wisdom character. Largey because alchemy is a made up non exact science so everyone has to be conventional wisdom character. A lot of her imput just comes off as nothing.

But if she was just... there, i wouldn't mind as much. There is a scene in a hospital, after edward and all come back from that factory where Edward finds out " the Stone is made of people " and all is contemplating his existence.

She says some shit to all, she says some shit that communicates that her character... is a horrible person. That if we were talking about someone assaulting someone on the street , she would be like " well that guy who hit that guy for no reason, you don't know maybe he had bad day " . She would be that person. This scene, oh my god.

I'm going to stop here, if you want to talk about it we can , but i'm not trying to flood this page.
 
Yes. I'll look bad.

Thing is, the characters themselves usually look fine, but every episode stuff like this shows up and kills it for me. The backgrounds always look bad. The show is consistently wonky. It's a lot harder to find wonky frames in the original show. Believe me, I've looked. They're there. But they're barely there.

I don't like shows where the backgrounds look like they got run through a Photoshop filter.

BTW....aren't archways like the ones on the left supposed to be straight and parallel?



I can go through every episode and find shit like this. That's not nitpicking, that's looking for a show to have consistent art. If it was just one or two episodes, it wouldn't have bothered me. It happens during serious scenes. It happens during some of the shows biggest moments:
the Winry pulls a gun on Scar scene looks so ugly
. The first show managed consistency and quality and most of the same people worked on it!

This stuff bothers me as someone who pays attention to the art and animation in a show, but you know what, there's one thing I can't argue: I still watched the show and enjoyed parts of it. I could never like it in its entirety, but I recognize that what I look for isn't what others are going to look for. I wanted that care and detail because I do love the series. In the original show when
Scar destroyed Edward's arm, the arm was detailed with parts flying everywhere, and you got a focus on Edward's facial expression. I wanted Brotherhood to give its scenes that kind of effort. It doesn't.
Arcs like Nina took up to two or three episodes originally. Important arcs from the manga like Xerxes were crunched into one. I was fine with them rushing the early stuff to get to the new, but they even rushed the new.

Anyway. If how I feel about the show makes me look bad, too bad. I guess I'll just have to look bad.

I'll back you up on that. The artwork in Brotherhood frequently has a sloppy, lifeless quality that really makes it unpleasant to watch at times. It's even occasionally present in the lauded fight scenes. While I can appreciate frenetic, well-animated action, I'd have gladly sacrificed some of those scenes for crisper backgrounds and more consistency in the character artwork. While 2003 has its moments of blandness, its artwork never hits Brotherhood's lows, and its approach to lighting is detailed and atmospheric and breathes life into its scenes. Even in SD, FMA 2003's visuals manage to put many modern anime series to shame based on the lighting alone.
 

Johndoey

Banned
So The Dead Room is an awful awful horror movie, about half way through the film the protags accomplish their objective and proceed to just bumble around until they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It can't even do it's end reveal correctly.

----------------------
 
Huh. I wonder if that's why Blue Sub 6, Last Exile, and Gankutsuou were TV series animation achievements in their time.

Digital is more than capable of surpassing cel. The problem is that with less viable jobs, companies not willing to spend on more experimental things like Blue Sub 6 or Gank, there's going to be a drop in quality in how tv animation looks.

And remember that those three you listed were Gonzo studios shows. And Gonzo has never recovered after bankruptcy. Gonzo was a huge force in experimental anime TV and pushing visual standards, and they're pretty much dead for all intents and purposes.
 
Screenshots are the only means by which I can show off the shots that look wonky. Do you want me to go record gifs? Where's the line on this? Do you want me to take screencaps of every instance of a character's face? Come on. I love discussing FMA, but I don't want to spend hours writing up a book-length analysis. If I did, I would've done it already.

My "look bad" statement wasn't meant to be taken this serious lol. just exaggerating to get across how great the show is.

If you wanna argue the art/animation then sure but it doesn't stop FMA:brotherhood from being one of the greats.

Oh, I'm used to people getting really mad at me about it, so I thought you were. I get that the show is beloved by most people, and that it'll probably go down as a classic. I just can't help myself. At the end of these discussions, I usually end up feeling bad because I don't like the idea of costing someone a potential favorite show. The original has problems too, don't get me wrong, but not on the same level.

Also, Winry got turned into a love interest when she was originally a family/sister figure. Which is kinda gross thematically, to me.

And yeah, Kyle's absolutely right. The atmosphere and quality of the background art in 03 FMA is on another level. And even tiny little characters in the background animate. The show really took advantage of the 4:3 format. Part of the reason I think the show was able to stay so detailed usually was because it was carefully set up visually, with interesting ways to do the scenes. They could do more limited animation that way, and keep consistency, and still have it look good. Most anime don't look this good.

And look at that, they knew how to do perspective. Not perfectly, but much better.


Also, have a pretty background.
 

Crocodile

Member
Time is an issue. But money is also an issue. That's partly why digital is a thing: it saves some time and some money, but it's just plain in general. Money buys good talent. Although I hate it, compare Kill La Kill to other anime digital TV series. Despite being digital, it LOOKS just like high end cel. They put in time, but they also have some of the best talent in the industry and have amassed a pretty small fortune. Time, talent, and money all factor into animation. But even back in the day, when Sailor Moon reused those transformation animations, it still had a massive amount of heart out into its shots. Sailor Moon was no GitS:SAC in terms of animation, but it still looked good. Besides being a popular brand, it made Toei money because they were frugal with it. And yet, it still looked amazing and had to worry about going ahead of the manga. Sailor Moon's new TV series has had all the time in the world to look good. So did FMA: Brotherhood. They're both based off finished manga stories. In the case of Ssilor Moon, the manga finished almost 20 year ago? So it's no excuse.

Essentially, digital saves time and money, making studios like Toei who don't give a fuck, half ass on it. Then you get stuff like the new Sailor Moon.

e37KJu0.png


Furthermore, Japan's animation industry has had a mass talent exodus. There's not nearly as much talented worked in it as there were say, twenty years ago. So for a lot of projects, all three are lacking.

A) When I say time, I mean literally the amount of time the animators have to make an episode or series. It takes weeks to make a single episode of anime (though of course they are working on more than one episode at a time on a staggered schedule). When you have to make a new episode of a show every week for 6, 12 or more months at a time, its very hard to devote the maximum allotment of time to making a show look its absolute best. Your lead time tends to shrink as you move forward and deadlines get tighter. Just because something is an adaptation of a product from years back doesn't mean the production schedule is going to be great. Some studios/animators are allowed to take 1+ years on a project and others have to pump out a show in months. That time difference matters a lot.

With regards to Studio Trigger, they have talent (Imaishi, Yoshinari and Sushio among others) but I would not call them a rich studio overall. When their production schedule goes to shit you get stuff like Kill la Kill. When their production schedule is more open/flexible you get Little Witch Academia. That they imbue a lot of their products with a sense of style is more to personal discretion and the character designers they use. It also seems to be more focused on their original IPs (Kill la Kill, Little Witch Academia, Kiavnizer, etc.) and less so their "for hire" work (Superpowered Battles are so Common or whatever the name of that show was).

In another example of how important production schedules are, I mention Studio WIT. When Attack on Titan was actually animated it often looked incredible. However half the time you'd be getting a slideshow. Why? Because their production schedule was so borked that they could barely deliver episodes finished to air on TV. It wasn't like all their animators forgot how to draw all of a sudden and it wasn't money as they were paying money out the ass to get enough animation directors to finish the episodes (when you look at the credits of an episode of anime and see 4242125 animation directors, something usually went wrong or there was some MAJOR crunch). Rolling Girls was another recent example where the animators were even complaining about the production schedule on Twitter (of course they had to rapidly delete said tweets once even people in the West were catching on LOL). The first few episodes of that show looked AMAZING but the later set, bar some exceptions, were much worse.

Kyoto Animation is one of the most prolific animation studios in Japan nowadays. A lot of the shows they make are lacking in substance or writing quality but they often look AMAZING and that's thanks to their superlative work environment and production schedule. They work on very few things at a time and they don't need to rely on freelancers like most other studios. Ufotable is generally the same way (though God Eater ended up being an unusual clusterfuck). Madhouse (and MAPPA to a lesser degree) and BONES have a good reputation for following consistent production schedules. Its' part of the reason Hunter x Hunter 2011 was such a consistent looking show (from what I've heard and the bits I've seen) or why BONES consistently puts out such stylistic and good looking shows. Money and Talent asre super impotant but production schedules and how different studios manage them (or how individual project mangers handle them) are also extremely predictive of the quality of animation a show will have (more so than money I feel). I feel people often underestimate this.

Oh and on one more note, Toei is a piece of shit. They hire slave labor from the Philippines and follow terrible production schedules for like all their shows (of which they make like 325613251325 at a time) with the EXCEPTION of the Precure franchise? Have you watched that (or even just excerpts and gifs)? That shit looks GREAT most of the time. I wouldn't use Toei as an example to condemn digital production as a whole.

As an aside, a big reason that recent Dragon Ball Super episodes have looked better is because World Trigger and a bunch of One Piece specials just ended which freed up more animators to actually work on Super. I hope it keeps up.

B) Mass talent exodus? I'm not seeing it at all when it comes to animation. Yes Studio Ghibli cratering sucks, yes the death of Kon was devastating. The increasing proliferation of webgen animation and hard work on display by the mixture of newcomers and the old guard tells me anime is perfectly fine from an animation standpoint. Yuasa, Hosada, Natsume, Yutapon, Kameda, Obari, Nakamura, Bahi JD, Ryo-timo, etc. are still putting in God's work. How much recent anime are you watching? If you're looking for visual spectacle, its out there.

In a visual medium like animation, I wouldn't exactly say "this doesn't look good" is exactly nitpicking.

The issue is that literally every show ever animated has a non-zero number of still frames that look less than ideal when pulled out of context. You can't post a screenshot of a random show and say "LOL bad animation" and have it mean much. You need to provide video and said video has to be representative of the show and not an exception.

EDIT: Though to be fair, the discussion or character art/background art is different than a discussion of actual animation. I've seen too many people conflate the two for my tastes so maybe I'm off base on the actual intentions of Fawful.
 
Actually, I think I am conflating frame-to-frame character art and background art with the animation itself. The animation itself as far as finished movement generally looks fine, even good. At least in the fights. When the way the characters and overall art looks isn't appealing or consistent, I admit that colors the animation itself too.

Why can't i see Civil War yet.
OXOnTC3.gif

Sorry for the whining. I just needed to get it of my chest.

Man, T'Challa and Spidey were so awesome. I'm so glad I can replay those scenes in my head...anytime I want.
 
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